Seems odd that Sir Lance could win 7...



I'm still baffled about the drug itself and the timing of its use. All
indications from the experts point to the uselessness of testosterone
in the middle of a race - it's designed for long term training use, not
to provide any benefit during an intense racing effort. Why would
Landis risk getting caught for using something with no (or minimal)
short term benefit? Makes no sense.

[email protected] wrote:
> ...in-a-row and be totally clean.Maybe he was really that much better
> than anyone else....or maybe not
 
On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:57:01 +0200, <Montesquiou> wrote:

>It was scientifically proven that he had EPO,


Nonsense, complete nonsense.
 
<Montesquiou> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> a écrit dans le message de news:
> [email protected]...
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <Montesquiou>
>> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
>> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 1:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: Seems odd that Sir Lance could win 7...
>>
>>
>>>
>>> "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> a écrit dans le message de
>>> news: [email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> ...in-a-row and be totally clean.Maybe he was really that much
>>>>>> better
>>>>>> than anyone else....or maybe not
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do people keep saying "totally clean" and "never tested
>>>>> positive"
>>>>> when he has the 1999 EPO finding?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because it was never "scientifically" proven that's why.
>>>
>>> It was scientifically proven that he had EPO, but as it was not a
>>> doping test, nothing could be done for against Lance.
>>> Inded the l"Equipe said it on the very first day.

>>
>> A single test is not a proof. An A and B test meet the repeatibility
>> criterion for the scientific method as well as improving the
>> statistical measures of reliability to an acceptable level. The
>> circumstances surrounding the testing of an old sample opens up
>> plausible alternatives further reducing the confidence in the test.
>>

>
> Sorry, but it is not what I am talking about.
> I said that Lance was POSITIVE for the TDF in 1999 on a test done in
> 1999.
> It was a A sample.If you are not aware about it, use google. You will
> be surprised.
>
>


Now you are not making any sense. We were talking about your claim of
"It was scientifically proven that he had EPO".

In regards to his testing positive for corticosteroid, I'll ask you
again, what was the official outcome?

Phil H

>>>
>>> However Lance was positive for a 1999 test. It is a fact he can't
>>> disavoy since he gave later a convenient prescription.
>>> Of course his 'selective' brain omit to remember it....
>>>

>>
>> And the conclusion to that incident was ........?
>>
>>>> All you have
>>>> are inferences and those are not enough.

>>
>> The connection to Floyd is the only reason we are having this
>> discussion. Compared to Floyd's case, nobody has anything
>> scientifically substantial on LA.
>>
>> Phil H
>>

>
>
 
"Ram1105" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm still baffled about the drug itself and the timing of its use. All
> indications from the experts point to the uselessness of testosterone
> in the middle of a race - it's designed for long term training use,
> not
> to provide any benefit during an intense racing effort. Why would
> Landis risk getting caught for using something with no (or minimal)
> short term benefit? Makes no sense.
>


One of the reported benefits is to improve recovery. However, I haven't
come across any research to support this.

Phil H
 
On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:29:50 -0700, joedopebucket wrote:

> ...in-a-row and be totally clean.Maybe he was really that much better
> than anyone else....or maybe not


In my mind, saying 'I have never tested positive' is equivalent to 'I have
never been caught taking drugs' to which the reply is 'you must be good at
it, then'. Has Lance ever actually said on the record 'I have never taken
performance enhancing substances'?

Also, interesting comment from Aus Olymmpic sports psychologist. For drug
cheats to do the act in the first place, they have already convinced
themselves that they are doing nothing wrong, hence the protests of
innocence when caught (David Millar a notable exception).

--

phillip brown

"**** doesn't just happen. there is always an ass-hole involved"
 
"Phillip Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:29:50 -0700, joedopebucket wrote:
>
>> ...in-a-row and be totally clean.Maybe he was really that much better
>> than anyone else....or maybe not

>
> In my mind, saying 'I have never tested positive' is equivalent to 'I have
> never been caught taking drugs' to which the reply is 'you must be good at
> it, then'. Has Lance ever actually said on the record 'I have never taken
> performance enhancing substances'?



And if he had, what doe it mean? The five time Giro-winner Alfredo Binda
used to say that cyclists are the great liars of the world. And that was
when doping was still allowed!


> Also, interesting comment from Aus Olymmpic sports psychologist. For drug
> cheats to do the act in the first place, they have already convinced
> themselves that they are doing nothing wrong, hence the protests of
> innocence when caught (David Millar a notable exception).



Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against it
are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal women with
bare breasts.

Benjo
 
"Phillip Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:29:50 -0700, joedopebucket wrote:
>
>> ...in-a-row and be totally clean.Maybe he was really that much better
>> than anyone else....or maybe not

>
> In my mind, saying 'I have never tested positive' is equivalent to 'I have
> never been caught taking drugs'


Look, Lance was administered EPO when he was having Chemo. There were
postings HERE that claimed that since he used EPO when under cancer
treatment that he was cheating and that somehow the EPO had a permanent
effect on him.

Athletes have no other alternative but to say they never tested positive.
What if someone comes up and says - "Hey, DUDE, we smoked some good ****
together in College" after he said, "I've never taken any illegal drugs!"

Now I suggest you get your sleep so that you can get to your 3rd grade
classroom on time.
 
"benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against
> it are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal women
> with bare breasts.


Not quite the same thing Benjo. Remember that they were taking poisons at
times thinking that it would help. I remember someone here talking about
some "legal" drug that was giving an performance enhancement because it was
raising your heartrate. Pure unadulterated horse manure, but that's what
they thought all this was about.

There are good and sound reasons for rules against doping not the least of
which is that someone that is talented shouldn't have his talent made to
look miniscule by those with chemical enhancements.
 
On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:21:59 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against it
>are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal women with
>bare breasts.
>
>Benjo


Soon, if it's not happening already, will come gene doping. No need
to blood dope or use EPO, if you can take Repoxygen


" Repoxygen is a novel gene-based therapeutic for the treatment of
anaemia. The product concept is to deliver the Epo gene to the muscle
cells in a vector configuration that brings the gene under the control
of an oxygen-sensitive gene switch. Oxford BioMedica has demonstrated,
in a mouse model of chronic anaemia, that this type of product will
re-establish a normal haematocrit and, more importantly, it will
maintain that normal haematocrit via a homeostatic mechanism similar
to the normal control process. This means that the muscle can
effectively replace the kidney as the centre of haematocrit control.
The advantages for the anaemic patient are that the therapy requires
infrequent administration, Epo production is automatically controlled
by tissue oxygen levels and there are no bolus effects."


What kind of test do you use to detect gene sequences in muscles?
 
Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:21:59 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against it
>>are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal women with
>>bare breasts.
>>
>>Benjo

>
>
> Soon, if it's not happening already, will come gene doping. No need
> to blood dope or use EPO, if you can take Repoxygen
>
>
> " Repoxygen is a novel gene-based therapeutic for the treatment of
> anaemia. The product concept is to deliver the Epo gene to the muscle
> cells in a vector configuration that brings the gene under the control
> of an oxygen-sensitive gene switch. Oxford BioMedica has demonstrated,
> in a mouse model of chronic anaemia, that this type of product will
> re-establish a normal haematocrit and, more importantly, it will
> maintain that normal haematocrit via a homeostatic mechanism similar
> to the normal control process. This means that the muscle can
> effectively replace the kidney as the centre of haematocrit control.
> The advantages for the anaemic patient are that the therapy requires
> infrequent administration, Epo production is automatically controlled
> by tissue oxygen levels and there are no bolus effects."
>
>
> What kind of test do you use to detect gene sequences in muscles?


You don't need to use one because this vector will be useless in normal
people.
 
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 01:03:17 -0400, Jack Hollis wrote:
> What kind of test do you use to detect gene sequences in muscles?


Easy. Muscle biopsy after every stage.

--
E. Dronkert
 
Jack Hollis wrote:
>> What kind of test do you use to detect gene sequences in muscles?


Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Easy. Muscle biopsy after every stage.


Ouch. They'd look like swiss cheese after a few stages.
 
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against
>> it are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal
>> women with bare breasts.

>
> Not quite the same thing Benjo. Remember that they were taking poisons at
> times thinking that it would help. I remember someone here talking about
> some "legal" drug that was giving an performance enhancement because it
> was raising your heartrate. Pure unadulterated horse manure, but that's
> what they thought all this was about.
>
> There are good and sound reasons for rules against doping not the least of
> which is that someone that is talented shouldn't have his talent made to
> look miniscule by those with chemical enhancements.


Well, it's not quite the same way, because there have always been cyclists
who were dead against doping, even when they were allowed to take it. Eugene
Cristophe, winner of a legendary Milan-San Remo in 1910, was one of them.
But initially none of the advocates of anti-doping rules paid any attention
to the health of the athletes. The main argument (which is still playing an
essential role, although tacitly) was that athletes should compete to each
other in their natural state. Which was the reason why Pierre de Coubertin,
the fouding father of the Olymnpic Games, and so many other thought that
intensive training was as much cheating.as taking performance enhancing
drugs. Steaks were considered to be performance enhancing as well, but
eating a pound of red meat was accepted, because it's was within the limites
what was cosidered to be "natural".

Benjo
 
On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 08:37:11 +0200, Kyle Legate <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> What kind of test do you use to detect gene sequences in muscles?

>
>You don't need to use one because this vector will be useless in normal
>people.


Perhaps you're right, but some German trainer is suspected of using
it. I doubt there's much human research on its perforamnce enhancing
effects as of yet.

I would imagine it would be hard to detect because you would have to
know exactly which muscle has been injected with the stuff and then
have to find the gene sequence.

I any case, Repoxygen is only one of many possible gene doping drugs.
A University of Pennsylvania researcher said that studies in rats show
that muscle mass, strength and endurance can be increased by
injections of a gene-manipulated virus that goes to muscle tissue and
causes a rapid growth of cells.

I think we will soon be looking back at today as a time when they at
least had a chance of catching drug cheats.
 
On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:50:22 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against
>>> it are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal
>>> women with bare breasts.

>>
>> Not quite the same thing Benjo. Remember that they were taking poisons at
>> times thinking that it would help. I remember someone here talking about
>> some "legal" drug that was giving an performance enhancement because it
>> was raising your heartrate. Pure unadulterated horse manure, but that's
>> what they thought all this was about.
>>
>> There are good and sound reasons for rules against doping not the least of
>> which is that someone that is talented shouldn't have his talent made to
>> look miniscule by those with chemical enhancements.

>
>Well, it's not quite the same way, because there have always been cyclists
>who were dead against doping, even when they were allowed to take it. Eugene
>Cristophe, winner of a legendary Milan-San Remo in 1910, was one of them.
>But initially none of the advocates of anti-doping rules paid any attention
>to the health of the athletes. The main argument (which is still playing an
>essential role, although tacitly) was that athletes should compete to each
>other in their natural state. Which was the reason why Pierre de Coubertin,
>the fouding father of the Olymnpic Games, and so many other thought that
>intensive training was as much cheating.as taking performance enhancing
>drugs. Steaks were considered to be performance enhancing as well, but
>eating a pound of red meat was accepted, because it's was within the limites
>what was cosidered to be "natural".


The origin of the modern Olympics is based on the class structure of its day
with the idea being that the competitors, in the true spirit of sport, would be
a bunch of dilletante swells. The participants would be insulated from the need
to compete against actual fencing masters or trying to out shoot a gamekeeper or
out ride the horse trainers.

These were truly second rate participants. I don't call them competitors because
they specifically ruled out anybody who could beat the members of their class
and station in life.

Ron
 
"Jack Hollis" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:21:59 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against
>>it
>>are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal women
>>with
>>bare breasts.
>>
>>Benjo

>
> Soon, if it's not happening already, will come gene doping. No need
> to blood dope or use EPO, if you can take Repoxygen
>
>
> " Repoxygen is a novel gene-based therapeutic for the treatment of
> anaemia. The product concept is to deliver the Epo gene to the muscle
> cells in a vector configuration that brings the gene under the control
> of an oxygen-sensitive gene switch. Oxford BioMedica has demonstrated,
> in a mouse model of chronic anaemia, that this type of product will
> re-establish a normal haematocrit and, more importantly, it will
> maintain that normal haematocrit via a homeostatic mechanism similar
> to the normal control process. This means that the muscle can
> effectively replace the kidney as the centre of haematocrit control.
> The advantages for the anaemic patient are that the therapy requires
> infrequent administration, Epo production is automatically controlled
> by tissue oxygen levels and there are no bolus effects."
>
>


Way cool! That'll be 1 less injection a week for me. Though I think I'll let
them test it a bit on some pigs and dogs first.
 
Jack Hollis schreef:
> What kind of test do you use to detect gene sequences in muscles?


Easy. Use a medical tricorder and set to scan for non-human DNA.


--
E. Dronkert
 
"Jack Hollis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Soon, if it's not happening already, will come gene doping. No need
> to blood dope or use EPO, if you can take Repoxygen


If you believe that I have a bridge that I'd like to sell you.
 
"Jack Hollis" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:21:59 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against
>>it
>>are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal women
>>with
>>bare breasts.
>>
>>Benjo

>
> Soon, if it's not happening already, will come gene doping. No need
> to blood dope or use EPO, if you can take Repoxygen
>
>


I leave it up to the biomed pros to validate this, but I would assume that
if someone had that particular gene therapy, it would be easily (though not
cheaply) detectable since it is not present in the unadulterated human
genome. Like finding that fish gene in the tomato.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Jack Hollis <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:21:59 +0200, "benjo maso" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Doping has always been part of the cycling culture and the rules against it
> >are forced upon it the way missionaries forced bra's upon tribal women with
> >bare breasts.
> >
> >Benjo

>
> Soon, if it's not happening already, will come gene doping. No need
> to blood dope or use EPO, if you can take Repoxygen
>
>
> " Repoxygen is a novel gene-based therapeutic for the treatment of
> anaemia. The product concept is to deliver the Epo gene to the muscle
> cells in a vector configuration that brings the gene under the control
> of an oxygen-sensitive gene switch. Oxford BioMedica has demonstrated,
> in a mouse model of chronic anaemia, that this type of product will
> re-establish a normal haematocrit and, more importantly, it will
> maintain that normal haematocrit via a homeostatic mechanism similar
> to the normal control process. This means that the muscle can
> effectively replace the kidney as the centre of haematocrit control.
> The advantages for the anaemic patient are that the therapy requires
> infrequent administration, Epo production is automatically controlled
> by tissue oxygen levels and there are no bolus effects."
>
>
> What kind of test do you use to detect gene sequences in muscles?


A bolus is a lump or a large pill. What does he mean here?
No rapid increase and decrease of haematocrit?

--
Michael Press
 

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