Semi OT: Why I left Fundamentalist Christiantity



C

Chuckmsrd

Guest
I say semi OT because so much of this NG is about Dr.
Chungs beliefs and the reaction from other posters about
his beliefs

Beyond the
Fundamentals

For as long as I can remember, I have been a seeker. A
ravenous searcher, filled with questions and
wonderment of the most profound nature. I can recall
as if just yesterday, lying in my bed at the age of
five and pondering; "if the universe ends, as it
surely must, what is just beyond that ending?" I
remember getting shivers down my spine as I imagined
the blackness of "nothing" prior to the beginning of
"everything". Surely these questions and inquiries
have not withered as my human mind developed. We all
desire answers, truth, and meaning to our existence.
Along with this we possess an innate need and appeal
for love, companionship, and a sense of belonging,
from the highest conceptual sphere down to simple
interactions with others. Living in our largely
Christian culture, my quest led me inevitably to the
question of either embracing or denying the claims of
Christianity. By nature I am not one to ride the fence
on an issue of such profound importance and
implication. Although I believe that individual
perception is relative, I feel strongly that there
should be a clear response to claims of such a
resounding nature. In my early twenties, during my
undergraduate college studies, I said yes to these
claims and eventually fully embraced the claims of
fundamentalist Christianity. In answer to our desires
and needs as stated, the belief systems of
Christianity do provide a meaning, a purpose, and a
love from the highest philosophical standpoint (the
key word is "a" instead of "the"). One thing stood in
the way of resting in this traditional mindset; an
evolving, ever deepening intellectual hunger that
desired truth above all else. As a freethinker, I
increasingly struggled with "hand me down" thought
processes, dogma, and foundations of ideology.
Intellectual honesty within myself needed to be
addressed. I respect, and in a fleeting sense, envy
those who have a deep faith in their religious
beliefs. There is rest, peace, and much contentment in
many who possess an authentic faith. Faith can be
defined as "confident belief". As knowledge expanded
in so many areas, including but not restricted to,
logic, psychology, philosophy, neurophysiology,
evolution, physics, and world religions, my beliefs
progressed further and further from confidence in
fundamentalist Christianity as truth and more
accurately into confidence in the falsity therein. But
what of meaning and purpose? There is an abundance of
this in every moment alive if the perceptions and
desires are present. In nature, relationships,
humanitarianism, art, music, love, thought, play,
compassion, self actualization etc. What I needed and
have realized is that constantly reaching for ultimate
meaning can easily invade and deplete meaning from
everyday events and the beauty that is amongst us.
There will certainly be pain, sorrow, and loneliness
at times in those who do not possess a specific
concrete theistic belief. However these are natural
human emotions and are quite equally replete in
individuals who subscribe to traditional theology. On
the other side of the examination, there is absolute
joy, with an absolution of unnecessary guilt, clothed
in a magical freedom (thus the term freethinker), in
standing on your own honest beliefs. You need not
writhe through dogma you know is illogical, or
superstition that you clearly perceive as silly; you
dismiss them as just that. With all due respect, I do
find it humorous and compelling to hear from
individuals in fundamentalist Christian circles about
the "problem" with freethinking. Everything from
sinful selfishness and pride, to being blinded by
Satan and destined for eternal torment. One thing is
forgotten by those whom I love and respect in these
circles, that is that I had been there for over eight
years and have heard, studied, and examined these
beliefs in depth. I do not dismiss them due to
ignorance, or the reasons just stated, but due to
honesty within myself, empowered by experience and
wisdom. Upon the time of this writing, I feel that I
am, in a multitude of ways, much more spiritually
alive than previously. With the shredding of false and
unnecessary binds, freeing me to explore various
cultural and historical philosophical and theological
ideologies, it becomes an exciting time to be alive.
In addition, this freedom has been entwined with my
own creative spiritual insights, adding to the
expanding fulfillment. There are still those who will
try to bind and control the flow of a freethinker and
ex-fundamentalist for whatever the purported reason;
they would have you believe that it emanates from
sincere belief. I tend to feel that it originates more
often than not from one or more of the following; a
desire for control, power, self satisfaction, and/or
an insecurity that their own beliefs may have gaping
holes that can be exposed upon honest objective
examination. There are many truths yet to discover,
and I am excited about this journey. When all the dust
settles from debate, discussion, and searching. I
shall choose to die, not in submission with blinders
on, but rather in the forefront, with wonderment,
honesty, and freedom in my heart.
 
On 28 Apr 2004 11:58:12 GMT, [email protected] (ChuckMSRD) wrote:

>I say semi OT because so much of this NG is about Dr.
>Chungs beliefs and the reaction from other posters about
>his beliefs ...

.................

FWIW ...

My personal objection has nothing to do with Dr.
Chung's beliefs.

My objection is to his dishonesty and his hypocrisy, both of
which contribute to the sad state in which the validity of
his responses and recommendations is highly suspect.

smn
 
ChuckMSRD wrote:

> I say semi OT because so much of this NG is about Dr.
> Chungs beliefs and the reaction from other posters about
> his beliefs
>
> Beyond the
> Fundamentals
>
> For as long as I can remember, I have been a seeker.
> A ravenous searcher, filled with questions and
> wonderment of the most profound nature. I can recall
> as if just yesterday, lying in my bed at the age of
> five and pondering; "if the universe ends, as it
> surely must, what is just beyond that ending?" I
> remember getting shivers down my spine as I imagined
> the blackness of "nothing" prior to the beginning of
> "everything".

You and I are more alike than different on an
intellectual level.

> Surely these questions and inquiries have not withered as
> my human mind developed.

They have not.

> We all desire answers, truth, and meaning to our
> existence.

Some more than others.

> Along with this we possess an innate need and appeal for
> love, companionship, and a sense of belonging, from the
> highest conceptual sphere down to simple interactions
> with others.

Some more than others.

>
> Living in our largely Christian culture, my quest led
> me inevitably to the question of either embracing or
> denying the claims of Christianity.

The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.

> By nature I am not one to ride the fence on an issue of
> such profound importance and implication. Although I
> believe that individual perception is relative, I feel
> strongly that there should be a clear response to claims
> of such a resounding nature. In my early twenties, during
> my undergraduate college studies, I said yes to these
> claims and eventually fully embraced the claims of
> fundamentalist Christianity.

Did you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?

> In answer to our desires and needs as stated, the belief
> systems of Christianity do provide a meaning, a purpose,
> and a love from the highest philosophical standpoint (the
> key word is "a" instead of "the").

Blind acceptance of the belief systems of fundamentalist
Christianity is a form of tribal thinking. This observation
is not to judge folks who find this personally satisfactory.
Each person's walk with Christ can be and and often is
different as each person is different. This allows those
without the gifts of intelligence, discernment, wisdom etc.
the same opportunity to accept Christ and to walk with Him
as someone who is a highly evolved "ravenous searcher" as
you say you are.

> One thing stood in the way of resting in this traditional
> mindset; an
> evolving, ever deepening intellectual hunger that desired
> truth above all else.

I believe that had you accepted Christ as your personal Lord
and Savior, you would have had the option that I have had of
walking with Him as a "ravenous seeker" of truth and
knowledge. Just as He showed "doubting" Thomas, who was also
a "ravenous seeker," the holes in His hands and even offered
for Thomas to put his finger in the holes and to feel the
hole in His side, He has shown me things that have proven to
me beyond all shadows of doubt that He is God. And like
Thomas, though I asked and seeked as has been my nature, I
did not really *need* the answers because I have my faith,
and yet He has given me the answers. What you have witnessed
here in SMC should serve well as evidence that Christ has
given me these answers as I have walked with Him.

>
> As a freethinker, I increasingly struggled with "hand me
> down" thought processes, dogma, and foundations of
> ideology.

That was your choice as a freethinker.

> Intellectual honesty within
> myself needed to be addressed.

Yes, you will have to recognize sin.

> I respect, and in a fleeting sense, envy those
> who have a deep faith in their religious beliefs.

It is our nature to covet. We are sinful.

> There is rest, peace, and much contentment in many who
> possess an authentic faith.

That comes from Him and not from faith.

> Faith can be defined
> as "confident belief".

Faith is more than "confident belief" it is "unconditional
surrender of all authority to God."

> As knowledge expanded in so many areas, including but not
> restricted to, logic, psychology, philosophy,
> neurophysiology, evolution, physics, and world religions,
> my beliefs progressed further and further from confidence
> in fundamentalist Christianity as truth and more
> accurately into confidence in the falsity therein.

You write that you progressed but I sense you strayed from
the truth.

> But what of meaning and purpose? There is an
> abundance of this in every moment alive if the
> perceptions and desires are present. In nature,
> relationships, humanitarianism, art, music, love,
> thought, play, compassion, self actualization etc.

Worldly pursuits are too fleeting to be either meaningful or
purposeful.

> What I needed and have realized is that constantly
> reaching for ultimate meaning can easily invade and
> deplete meaning from everyday events and the beauty that
> is amongst us.

Constantly searching and not finding the meaning of life is
disheartening.

>
> There will certainly be pain, sorrow, and loneliness
> at times in those who do not possess a specific
> concrete theistic belief.

... or possess the wrong theistic belief.

> However these are natural human emotions and are quite
> equally replete in individuals who subscribe to
> traditional theology.

The avoidance of emotions should not be the motivation for
accepting Christ. Indeed, expect one's walk with Christ to
be filled with emotion. My walk with Him has certainly been
full of emotions of all kinds.

> On the other side of the examination, there is absolute
> joy, with an absolution of unnecessary guilt, clothed in a
> magical freedom (thus the term freethinker), in standing
> on your own honest beliefs.

Self-worship is perilous.

> You need not writhe through dogma you know is illogical,
> or superstition that you clearly perceive as silly; you
> dismiss them as just that.

God is neither illogical nor superstitious.

>
> With all due respect, I do find it humorous and
> compelling to hear from individuals in fundamentalist
> Christian circles about the "problem" with
> freethinking.

You may rest assured that Christ loves freethinkers.

> Everything from sinful selfishness and pride, to being
> blinded by Satan and destined for eternal torment. One
> thing is forgotten by those whom I love and respect in
> these circles, that is that I had been there for over
> eight years and have heard, studied, and examined these
> beliefs in depth.

Hearing, studying, and examining are not enough.

>
> I do not dismiss them due to ignorance, or the reasons
> just stated, but due to honesty within myself, empowered
> by experience and wisdom.

You chose out of your own free will to reject Christ.

>
> Upon the time of this writing, I feel that I am, in a
> multitude of ways, much more spiritually alive than
> previously. With the shredding of false and
> unnecessary binds, freeing me to explore various
> cultural and historical philosophical and theological
> ideologies, it becomes an exciting time to be alive.
> In addition, this freedom has been entwined with my
> own creative spiritual insights, adding to the
> expanding fulfillment.

At the time of this writing, I feel the Holy Spirit coursing
in every fiber of my being. I know I have eternal life so I
do not fear death. As I walk with Christ, I watch in
amazement at what He is able to do in every aspect of my
life even here within SMC. I have never been more spiritual
and I see no limits on how much more spiritual He will help
me become. If I were the same person as I was many years ago
before I accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior, I
would have been reduced to having the same obsessive and
abusive behavior as those whose opposition to Christ I and
others have witnessed here in SMC.

> There are still those who will try to bind and
> control the flow of a freethinker and ex-
> fundamentalist for whatever the purported reason;
> they would have you believe that it emanates from
> sincere belief.

Those who walk with Christ might share their experiences
with you but they will not leave their walk with Him to
control you.

> I tend to feel that it originates more often than not
> from one or more of the following; a desire for control,
> power, self satisfaction, and/or an insecurity that their
> own beliefs may have gaping holes that can be exposed
> upon honest objective examination.

Personally, I would refrain from judging.

>
> There are many truths yet to discover, and I am
> excited about this journey. When all the dust settles
> from debate, discussion, and searching. I shall
> choose to die, not in submission with blinders on,
> but rather in the forefront, with wonderment,
> honesty, and freedom in my heart.

In choosing Christ, I have chosen eternal life. May you make
the same choice someday.

Until then, you will be in my prayers to God, in
Christ's name.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
 
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.

................

I agree.

So why, Dr. Chung, do you *say* you embrace Him ... when by
your actions you so obviously not only reject Him, but also
spit in His face?

smn
 
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:56:00 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
>MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.
>
>................
>
>I agree.
>
>So why, Dr. Chung, do you *say* you embrace Him ... when by
>your actions you so obviously not only reject Him, but also
>spit in His face?
>
>smn

Why don't you notice that you do the same thing you accuse
Dr. Chung of doing, Stephen?

Terri
 
[email protected] wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:56:00 GMT, Stephen Nagler
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
> >MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.
> >
> >................
> >
> >I agree.
> >
> >So why, Dr. Chung, do you *say* you embrace Him ... when
> >by your actions you so obviously not only reject Him, but
> >also spit in His face?
> >
> >smn
>
> Why don't you notice that you do the same thing you accuse
> Dr. Chung of doing, Stephen?
>
> Terri

In two words:

Religious Obsession.

He remains in my prayers to God in Christ's name.

May he accept Christ as his personal Lord and Savior,
someday, so that he too will have eternal life and the
infinite riches of God's kingdom.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
 
Dr. Chung, I appreciate your reading and responding to my
piece. We will likely have to agree to disagree. I was
indeed born-again for nine years. I have my intellectual
doubts about Christianity's authenticity. This leads to
your predictable responsful that I am sinful, relying on
myself, fooled by Satan, et al: "The human heart is
desperately wicked..."I know quite a bit about the
bible. The "trap", as I call it, keeps people in the
fold and borders on cultic.

>You and I are more alike than different on an
>intellectual level.

Appreciate that, but because I'm choosing a different,
honest path with my intellect im on the outside and destined
for eternal wrath?

>The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.

No the real choice for me was whether this story was real
or fiction.

>Did you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?

Yes, including leading many others "to Christ"

>Each person's walk with Christ can be and often is
>different as each person is different.

I'll take note of that for future reference

>I believe that had you accepted Christ as your personal
>Lord and Savior, you would have had the option that I have
>had of walking with Him

I did. I thought we all had different walks with Christ as
we are all different? Here you label me as not accepting
Christ because I dont fall into lock step with your idea of
a believer.

>> Intellectual honesty within
>> myself needed to be addressed.
>
>Yes, you will have to recognize sin.

Aahhh "the trap" If you think for yourself then you are
"sinful"? Scary cultic trap. Great way to keep people
"within the fold"

>> I respect, and in a fleeting sense, envy those
>> who have a deep faith in their religious beliefs.
>
>It is our nature to covet. We are sinful.

More sin? Because im being honest about seeing people who
are at peace in their beliefs and admiring that?

>You write that you progressed but I sense you strayed from
>the truth.

Again the trap. You learn and it is sinful? I bet if you
were a phsyician in 1500's you would of been saying that
about astronomers stating the world is round.

>Worldly pursuits are too fleeting to be either meaningful
>or purposeful.

Everything in this life is temporary. Thus the lure of
religion and hope of an afterlife. This does not make it
true.

>Constantly searching and not finding the meaning of life is
>disheartening.

What intrigues me is how people who are firm believers are
the sole arbitors of truth. You'll say "Christ is the way,
the truth, the life", but you speak as if you and those who
think just as you do are the real deal, while my sinful
seeking is on "the outside".

>... or possess the wrong theistic belief.

See above. "They are wrong I am right mentality" Thats
arrogant.

>Self-worship is perilous.

I dont worship myself - just being honest with the intellect
"God has given me".

>God is neither illogical nor superstitious.

Much of basic Christianity is illogical. A man being nailed
to a tree to pay for passed down sin from a woman who seeked
knowledge from a tree, specifically an apple. Predestined
souls created before the foundation of the world yet most
will burn in hell?........ I could go on and on

>You chose out of your own free will to reject Christ.

I thought we were all different in our walks? I guess Im out
of the loop! A bit judgemental which you claim you are not.

>but they will not leave their walk with Him to control you.

No, I've had many believers try to control me *within* their
walk with much of the same tactics and traps that you use.
Its very predictable.

>Personally, I would refrain from judging.

LOLOLOLOL Thats all youve been doing in regards to my
opinions!

>In choosing Christ, I have chosen eternal life.

Or perhaps a bill of goods and much self delusion?

Chuck
 
ChuckMSRD wrote:
>
> Dr. Chung, I appreciate your reading and responding to my
> piece.

You are welcome :)

> We will likely have to agree to disagree.

I see this as an exchange rather than a debate.

> I was indeed born-again for nine years.

That does not necessarily mean you truly accepted Christ as
your personal Lord and Savior. Only you and God know for
certain what is in your heart.

> I have my intellectual doubts about Christianity's
> authenticity.

That is your choice.

> This leads to your predictable responsful that I am
> sinful, relying on myself, fooled by Satan, et al: "The
> human heart is desperately wicked..."

Here my choice is to refrain from judging.

> I know quite a bit about the bible.

As does satan. As does Pastorio. As does Mozz.

> The "trap", as I call it, keeps people in the fold and
> borders on cultic

Judging others is an indication that one is *not* walking
with Christ.

> >You and I are more alike than different on an
> >intellectual level.
>
> Appreciate that, but because I'm choosing a different,
> honest path with my intellect im on the outside and
> destined for eternal wrath?

If you choose to judge and not to walk with Christ, you will
be separated from Him.

> >The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.
>
> No the real choice for me was whether this story was real
> or fiction.

Same difference.

> >Did you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?
>
> Yes, including leading many others "to Christ"

What was your motivation for leading others to Christ?

> >Each person's walk with Christ can be and often is
> >different as each person is different.
>
> I'll take note of that for future reference
>
> >I believe that had you accepted Christ as your personal
> >Lord and Savior, you would have had the option that I
> >have had of walking with Him
>
> I did.

I believe that once a person truly accepts Christ as his/her
personal Lord and Savior, s/he would be unable to renounce
Him afterwards.

> I thought we all had different walks with Christ as we are
> all different?

Only *after* truly accepting Him.

> Here you label me as not accepting Christ because I dont
> fall into lock step with your idea of a believer.

It remains an observations.

> >> Intellectual honesty within
> >> myself needed to be addressed.
> >
> >Yes, you will have to recognize sin.
>
> Aahhh "the trap" If you think for yourself then you are
> "sinful"?

No. If you are honest with yourself, you will recognize sin.

> Scary cultic trap.

Sin is not scary.

> Great way to keep people "within the fold"

Those who follow Him do so because they love Him.

> >> I respect, and in a fleeting sense, envy those
> >> who have a deep faith in their religious beliefs.
> >
> >It is our nature to covet. We are sinful.
>
> More sin?

It is our nature. Would suggest you open your eyes and be
honest with yourself.

> Because im being honest about seeing people who are at
> peace in their beliefs and admiring that?

Envy is not admiration, neighbor.

> >You write that you progressed but I sense you strayed
> >from the truth.
>
> Again the trap.

It remains my observation.

> You learn and it is sinful?

You covet and coveting is a sin.

> I bet if you were a phsyician in 1500's you would of been
> saying that about astronomers stating the world is round.

Observation is not a sin.

>
> >Worldly pursuits are too fleeting to be either meaningful
> >or purposeful.
>
> Everything in this life is temporary.

Yes.

> Thus the lure of religion and hope of an afterlife.

Not all religions describe an afterlife.

> This does not make it true.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was crucified only to be
resurrected?

> >Constantly searching and not finding the meaning of life
> >is disheartening.
>
> What intrigues me is how people who are firm believers are
> the sole arbitors of truth. You'll say "Christ is the way,
> the truth, the life", but you speak as if you and those
> who think just as you do are the real deal, while my
> sinful seeking is on "the outside".

Seeking is not sin.

>
> >... or possess the wrong theistic belief.
>
> See above. "They are wrong I am right mentality" Thats
> arrogant.

In your seeking, have you not come across right and wrong?

> >Self-worship is perilous.
>
> I dont worship myself - just being honest with the
> intellect "God has given me".

What you described was self-worship.

> >God is neither illogical nor superstitious.
>
> Much of basic Christianity is illogical.

Much of life is illogical.

> A man being nailed to a tree to pay for passed down sin
> from a woman who seeked knowledge from a tree,
> specifically an apple.

That man was nailed to the tree because other men rejected
His being the Messiah. This was a sin then as it is a sin
now. And, yes, this sin is a manifestation of the original
sin of Eve turning her back on God when she disobeyed Him.

> Predestined souls created before the foundation of the
> world yet most will burn in hell?

Would suggest you reread the parable of the Sower and
the Weeds.

>........ I could go on and on

as can I.

> >You chose out of your own free will to reject Christ.
>
> I thought we were all different in our walks?

You are not walking with Him.

> I guess Im out of the loop!

Seemingly by choice.

> A bit judgemental which you claim you are not.

Observations are not judgments.

> >but they will not leave their walk with Him to
> >control you.
>
> No, I've had many believers try to control me *within*
> their walk with much of the same tactics and traps that
> you use.

What led you to reject Christ?

> Its very predictable.

Then why are you still here?

> >Personally, I would refrain from judging.
>
> LOLOLOLOL Thats all youve been doing in regards to my
> opinions!

Again, observation is not the same as judging.

> >In choosing Christ, I have chosen eternal life.
>
> Or perhaps a bill of goods and much self delusion?

Christ is not self.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

What is all this about?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

Is this spam?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
 
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:14:50 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email protected]>
wrote:

>My objection is to his dishonesty and his hypocrisy, both
>of which contribute to the sad state in which the validity
>of his responses and recommendations is highly suspect.

Coming from a known and well documented liar, this is an
interesting case of hypocrisy in and of itself, Nagler.

Wanna have lunch?

lol

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960222.html Lift well,
Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
On 29 Apr 2004 07:47:56 GMT, [email protected] (ChuckMSRD) wrote:

>Dr. Chung, I appreciate your reading and responding to my
> piece. We will likely have to agree to disagree. I was
> indeed born-again for nine years. I have my
> intellectual doubts about Christianity's authenticity.

That's your problem.

> This leads to your predictable responsful that I am
> sinful, relying on myself, fooled by Satan, et al: "The
> human heart is desperately wicked..."I know quite a bit
> about the bible. The "trap", as I call it, keeps people in
> the fold and borders on cultic.

If the truth traps you, how badly are you actually
"trapped"?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960222.html Lift well,
Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
I think a clear difference between you and I is that I
accept the posibility that I may be wrong. I guarantee you
would not even entertain the notion in the smallest way that
you may possibly be wrong. That you have accepted a lie and
are self deluded. Is it at all possible Dr.? I think it is
arrogant for any mortal human being to believe that they are
the sole arbitor of enlightenment and have been given *the*
truth from God. All religions claim divine truth so many,
many are wrong - perhaps you are Dr but youll never
entertain that notion. Chuck
 
On 30 Apr 2004 09:07:56 GMT, [email protected] (ChuckMSRD) wrote:

>I think a clear difference between you and I is that I
>accept the posibility that I may be wrong. I guarantee you
>would not even entertain the notion in the smallest way
>that you may possibly be wrong.

Guess what? You're right, you're wrong.

>That you have accepted a lie and are self deluded. Is it at
>all possible Dr.?

I'm not a doctor.

Strike Two.

> I think it is arrogant for any mortal human being to
> believe that they are the sole arbitor of enlightenment
> and have been given *the* truth from God. All religions
> claim divine truth so many, many are wrong - perhaps you
> are Dr but youll never entertain that notion.

Strike Three. You're out.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960222.html Lift well,
Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
 
ChuckMSRD wrote:

> I think a clear difference between you and I is that I
> accept the posibility that I may be wrong.

If I believed I were never wrong, it would mean that I
believe I were a god. This would be one of the perils of self-
worship which is not applicable to me (though I suspect it
is applicable to you).

> I guarantee you would not even entertain the notion in the
> smallest way that you may possibly be wrong.

That betrays your tendency to self-worship. Self worshippers
believe they can guarantee anything (ie that they are
themselves gods or masters of their own universe).

> That you have accepted a lie and are self deluded.

It would seem that you are gazing into a mirror.

> Is it at all possible Dr.?

No. Christ is not self.

> I think it is arrogant for any mortal human being to
> believe that they are the sole arbitor of enlightenment

Agree.

>
> and have been given *the* truth from God.

We have *all* been given Christ, who is the truth from God.

It remains your choice to reject Him.

>
> All religions claim divine truth so many, many are wrong -

Actually, not all religions claim divine truth.

> perhaps you are Dr but youll never entertain that notion.

See above.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
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ChuckMSRD wrote:

> >If I believed I were never wrong, it would mean that I
> >believe I were a god.
>
> I meant specifically wrong about your theistic beliefs.

Faith is never wrong even if misplaced.

> Just let it be known that I *hope* I am wrong.

Your faith seems to be misplaced.

> My Mother passed 2 years ago and was a Christian woman. I
> want nothing more than to see, hold, talk to her again.

(1) If you are wrong about rejecting Christ, we would share
the belief that you will never see your mother again.

(2) If you are right about rejecting Christ, we would
still share the belief that you will never see your
mother again.

(3) If you accept Christ and stop rejecting Him, we will
share the belief that you will see your mother again.

Logically, the correct choice is (3) if you truly want to
see your mother again.

> Wanting does not mean believing.

Faith is more than just believing.

> I may want the moon to be made of green cheese -

Faith is more than wanting.

> but wanting still makes it silly.

If it is truly what you want, who should judge you to
be foolish?

> I dont believe God will punish me for my honest doubts.

If someone does not invite you to a private party, is that
someone punishing you?

> I have a different notion of God than someone ready to
> smite and fry in Hell anyone who rejects his son due to
> legimitimate doubts and inconsistencies in the bible.

I also hold a different notion:

http://www.heartmdphd.com/christ.asp

> Perhaps Christ himself would speak to you as he did to the
> pharisees as having a religious, elitist attitude, and a
> good-hearted doubter like me with open arms.

What you are reading is what He would have me write to you.

> Just a thought Doc.
>

You remain in my prayers, Chuck.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
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Home, Home On The Mu_n wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
> MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Blind acceptance of the belief systems of fundamentalist
>>Christianity is a form of tribal thinking.
>
> Sure is. Can you say "Catholic".

Sure. Can you say fundamentalist wacko?

Catholicism isn't a fundamentalist religion like your
selective vision of Christianity. Pick and choose what you
like and discard the inconvenient parts. Real honest. Real
smart to trifle with God.

Bob
 
Home, Home On The Mu_n wrote:

> On 29 Apr 2004 07:47:56 GMT, [email protected]
> (ChuckMSRD) wrote:
>
>>Dr. Chung, I appreciate your reading and responding to my
>> piece. We will likely have to agree to disagree. I was
>> indeed born-again for nine years. I have my
>> intellectual doubts about Christianity's authenticity.
>
> That's your problem.

How stupidly hostile for no good reason.

>>This leads to your predictable responsful that I am
>>sinful, relying on myself, fooled by Satan, et al: "The
>>human heart is desperately wicked..."I know quite a bit
>>about the bible. The "trap", as I call it, keeps people in
>>the fold and borders on cultic.
>
> If the truth traps you, how badly are you actually
> "trapped"?

I'm typing slowly just for you. If it's a trap, its
truthfulness is suspect. See how that works? Didn't think
so.

Bob
 
ChuckMSRD wrote:
>
> >(3) If you accept Christ and stop rejecting Him, we will
> > share the belief that you will see your mother again.
>
> You speak on the premise that I *know* Christ is real

*If* you accept Christ, by definition you *believe* Christ
is your personal Lord and Savior. A small part of this
belief is believing/knowing that Christ is real. Afterall,
Satan and his minions *know* that Christ is real.

> and im rejecting him still.

It would seem that you are not unlike either Stephen or Bob
in this regard.

> I dont believe that Christianity is real, so how can I
> reject fiction?

You reject Christ with this rhetorical question.

> Again I use the analogy that if you said, "Chuck if you
> will only accept that the moon is made of blue cheese you
> will see your mom again and have eternal life in Cheese's
> name". To me they are equally silly.

That is the choice you have made.

> >What you are reading is what He would have me write
> >to you.
>
> So Christ is speaking through you.

No. It remains my choice to walk with Christ and so He
guides me.

> Not the liberal theologian I spoke to you yesterday
> who said loving your neighbor as yourself is more
> important than following fundamentalist dogmas? A
> chosen one you are!

All true Christians are chosen ones.

>
> >You remain in my prayers, Chuck.
>
> I wish you well and appreciate your cardiology input
> on the NG

Thank you for the well wishes and appreciation.

All the glory belongs to my boss, who is also my Savior.

You remain in my prayers, Chuck.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

**
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On Sun, 02 May 2004 03:40:24 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>It would seem that you are not unlike either Stephen or Bob
>in this regard.

..................

Dr. Chung:

Regarding matters of medicine and religion, last week I
agreed not to address you and not to refer to you on this
newsgroup.

I will expect you to show me the same courtesy.

stephen nagler
 
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

> ChuckMSRD wrote:

>>You speak on the premise that I *know* Christ is real
>
> *If* you accept Christ, by definition you *believe* Christ
> is your personal Lord and Savior. A small part of this
> belief is believing/knowing that Christ is real. Afterall,
> Satan and his minions *know* that Christ is real.
>
>>and im rejecting him still.
>
> It would seem that you are not unlike either Stephen or
> Bob in this regard.

Chung thinks that rejecting the fraudulence and quackery
of a sadly disturbed fundamentalist wacko is somehow
rejecting Jesus.

Shows the depths of the disturbance. Shows the lameness of
his claim to "discern truth." Poor shabby Chung...

Bob