Semi OT: Why I left Fundamentalist Christiantity

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by Chuckmsrd, Apr 28, 2004.

  1. Chuckmsrd

    Chuckmsrd Guest

    I say semi OT because so much of this NG is about Dr.
    Chungs beliefs and the reaction from other posters about
    his beliefs

    Beyond the
    Fundamentals

    For as long as I can remember, I have been a seeker. A
    ravenous searcher, filled with questions and
    wonderment of the most profound nature. I can recall
    as if just yesterday, lying in my bed at the age of
    five and pondering; "if the universe ends, as it
    surely must, what is just beyond that ending?" I
    remember getting shivers down my spine as I imagined
    the blackness of "nothing" prior to the beginning of
    "everything". Surely these questions and inquiries
    have not withered as my human mind developed. We all
    desire answers, truth, and meaning to our existence.
    Along with this we possess an innate need and appeal
    for love, companionship, and a sense of belonging,
    from the highest conceptual sphere down to simple
    interactions with others. Living in our largely
    Christian culture, my quest led me inevitably to the
    question of either embracing or denying the claims of
    Christianity. By nature I am not one to ride the fence
    on an issue of such profound importance and
    implication. Although I believe that individual
    perception is relative, I feel strongly that there
    should be a clear response to claims of such a
    resounding nature. In my early twenties, during my
    undergraduate college studies, I said yes to these
    claims and eventually fully embraced the claims of
    fundamentalist Christianity. In answer to our desires
    and needs as stated, the belief systems of
    Christianity do provide a meaning, a purpose, and a
    love from the highest philosophical standpoint (the
    key word is "a" instead of "the"). One thing stood in
    the way of resting in this traditional mindset; an
    evolving, ever deepening intellectual hunger that
    desired truth above all else. As a freethinker, I
    increasingly struggled with "hand me down" thought
    processes, dogma, and foundations of ideology.
    Intellectual honesty within myself needed to be
    addressed. I respect, and in a fleeting sense, envy
    those who have a deep faith in their religious
    beliefs. There is rest, peace, and much contentment in
    many who possess an authentic faith. Faith can be
    defined as "confident belief". As knowledge expanded
    in so many areas, including but not restricted to,
    logic, psychology, philosophy, neurophysiology,
    evolution, physics, and world religions, my beliefs
    progressed further and further from confidence in
    fundamentalist Christianity as truth and more
    accurately into confidence in the falsity therein. But
    what of meaning and purpose? There is an abundance of
    this in every moment alive if the perceptions and
    desires are present. In nature, relationships,
    humanitarianism, art, music, love, thought, play,
    compassion, self actualization etc. What I needed and
    have realized is that constantly reaching for ultimate
    meaning can easily invade and deplete meaning from
    everyday events and the beauty that is amongst us.
    There will certainly be pain, sorrow, and loneliness
    at times in those who do not possess a specific
    concrete theistic belief. However these are natural
    human emotions and are quite equally replete in
    individuals who subscribe to traditional theology. On
    the other side of the examination, there is absolute
    joy, with an absolution of unnecessary guilt, clothed
    in a magical freedom (thus the term freethinker), in
    standing on your own honest beliefs. You need not
    writhe through dogma you know is illogical, or
    superstition that you clearly perceive as silly; you
    dismiss them as just that. With all due respect, I do
    find it humorous and compelling to hear from
    individuals in fundamentalist Christian circles about
    the "problem" with freethinking. Everything from
    sinful selfishness and pride, to being blinded by
    Satan and destined for eternal torment. One thing is
    forgotten by those whom I love and respect in these
    circles, that is that I had been there for over eight
    years and have heard, studied, and examined these
    beliefs in depth. I do not dismiss them due to
    ignorance, or the reasons just stated, but due to
    honesty within myself, empowered by experience and
    wisdom. Upon the time of this writing, I feel that I
    am, in a multitude of ways, much more spiritually
    alive than previously. With the shredding of false and
    unnecessary binds, freeing me to explore various
    cultural and historical philosophical and theological
    ideologies, it becomes an exciting time to be alive.
    In addition, this freedom has been entwined with my
    own creative spiritual insights, adding to the
    expanding fulfillment. There are still those who will
    try to bind and control the flow of a freethinker and
    ex-fundamentalist for whatever the purported reason;
    they would have you believe that it emanates from
    sincere belief. I tend to feel that it originates more
    often than not from one or more of the following; a
    desire for control, power, self satisfaction, and/or
    an insecurity that their own beliefs may have gaping
    holes that can be exposed upon honest objective
    examination. There are many truths yet to discover,
    and I am excited about this journey. When all the dust
    settles from debate, discussion, and searching. I
    shall choose to die, not in submission with blinders
    on, but rather in the forefront, with wonderment,
    honesty, and freedom in my heart.
     
    Tags:


  2. On 28 Apr 2004 11:58:12 GMT, [email protected] (ChuckMSRD) wrote:

    >I say semi OT because so much of this NG is about Dr.
    >Chungs beliefs and the reaction from other posters about
    >his beliefs ...

    .................

    FWIW ...

    My personal objection has nothing to do with Dr.
    Chung's beliefs.

    My objection is to his dishonesty and his hypocrisy, both of
    which contribute to the sad state in which the validity of
    his responses and recommendations is highly suspect.

    smn
     
  3. ChuckMSRD wrote:

    > I say semi OT because so much of this NG is about Dr.
    > Chungs beliefs and the reaction from other posters about
    > his beliefs
    >
    > Beyond the
    > Fundamentals
    >
    > For as long as I can remember, I have been a seeker.
    > A ravenous searcher, filled with questions and
    > wonderment of the most profound nature. I can recall
    > as if just yesterday, lying in my bed at the age of
    > five and pondering; "if the universe ends, as it
    > surely must, what is just beyond that ending?" I
    > remember getting shivers down my spine as I imagined
    > the blackness of "nothing" prior to the beginning of
    > "everything".

    You and I are more alike than different on an
    intellectual level.

    > Surely these questions and inquiries have not withered as
    > my human mind developed.

    They have not.

    > We all desire answers, truth, and meaning to our
    > existence.

    Some more than others.

    > Along with this we possess an innate need and appeal for
    > love, companionship, and a sense of belonging, from the
    > highest conceptual sphere down to simple interactions
    > with others.

    Some more than others.

    >
    > Living in our largely Christian culture, my quest led
    > me inevitably to the question of either embracing or
    > denying the claims of Christianity.

    The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.

    > By nature I am not one to ride the fence on an issue of
    > such profound importance and implication. Although I
    > believe that individual perception is relative, I feel
    > strongly that there should be a clear response to claims
    > of such a resounding nature. In my early twenties, during
    > my undergraduate college studies, I said yes to these
    > claims and eventually fully embraced the claims of
    > fundamentalist Christianity.

    Did you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?

    > In answer to our desires and needs as stated, the belief
    > systems of Christianity do provide a meaning, a purpose,
    > and a love from the highest philosophical standpoint (the
    > key word is "a" instead of "the").

    Blind acceptance of the belief systems of fundamentalist
    Christianity is a form of tribal thinking. This observation
    is not to judge folks who find this personally satisfactory.
    Each person's walk with Christ can be and and often is
    different as each person is different. This allows those
    without the gifts of intelligence, discernment, wisdom etc.
    the same opportunity to accept Christ and to walk with Him
    as someone who is a highly evolved "ravenous searcher" as
    you say you are.

    > One thing stood in the way of resting in this traditional
    > mindset; an
    > evolving, ever deepening intellectual hunger that desired
    > truth above all else.

    I believe that had you accepted Christ as your personal Lord
    and Savior, you would have had the option that I have had of
    walking with Him as a "ravenous seeker" of truth and
    knowledge. Just as He showed "doubting" Thomas, who was also
    a "ravenous seeker," the holes in His hands and even offered
    for Thomas to put his finger in the holes and to feel the
    hole in His side, He has shown me things that have proven to
    me beyond all shadows of doubt that He is God. And like
    Thomas, though I asked and seeked as has been my nature, I
    did not really *need* the answers because I have my faith,
    and yet He has given me the answers. What you have witnessed
    here in SMC should serve well as evidence that Christ has
    given me these answers as I have walked with Him.

    >
    > As a freethinker, I increasingly struggled with "hand me
    > down" thought processes, dogma, and foundations of
    > ideology.

    That was your choice as a freethinker.

    > Intellectual honesty within
    > myself needed to be addressed.

    Yes, you will have to recognize sin.

    > I respect, and in a fleeting sense, envy those
    > who have a deep faith in their religious beliefs.

    It is our nature to covet. We are sinful.

    > There is rest, peace, and much contentment in many who
    > possess an authentic faith.

    That comes from Him and not from faith.

    > Faith can be defined
    > as "confident belief".

    Faith is more than "confident belief" it is "unconditional
    surrender of all authority to God."

    > As knowledge expanded in so many areas, including but not
    > restricted to, logic, psychology, philosophy,
    > neurophysiology, evolution, physics, and world religions,
    > my beliefs progressed further and further from confidence
    > in fundamentalist Christianity as truth and more
    > accurately into confidence in the falsity therein.

    You write that you progressed but I sense you strayed from
    the truth.

    > But what of meaning and purpose? There is an
    > abundance of this in every moment alive if the
    > perceptions and desires are present. In nature,
    > relationships, humanitarianism, art, music, love,
    > thought, play, compassion, self actualization etc.

    Worldly pursuits are too fleeting to be either meaningful or
    purposeful.

    > What I needed and have realized is that constantly
    > reaching for ultimate meaning can easily invade and
    > deplete meaning from everyday events and the beauty that
    > is amongst us.

    Constantly searching and not finding the meaning of life is
    disheartening.

    >
    > There will certainly be pain, sorrow, and loneliness
    > at times in those who do not possess a specific
    > concrete theistic belief.

    ... or possess the wrong theistic belief.

    > However these are natural human emotions and are quite
    > equally replete in individuals who subscribe to
    > traditional theology.

    The avoidance of emotions should not be the motivation for
    accepting Christ. Indeed, expect one's walk with Christ to
    be filled with emotion. My walk with Him has certainly been
    full of emotions of all kinds.

    > On the other side of the examination, there is absolute
    > joy, with an absolution of unnecessary guilt, clothed in a
    > magical freedom (thus the term freethinker), in standing
    > on your own honest beliefs.

    Self-worship is perilous.

    > You need not writhe through dogma you know is illogical,
    > or superstition that you clearly perceive as silly; you
    > dismiss them as just that.

    God is neither illogical nor superstitious.

    >
    > With all due respect, I do find it humorous and
    > compelling to hear from individuals in fundamentalist
    > Christian circles about the "problem" with
    > freethinking.

    You may rest assured that Christ loves freethinkers.

    > Everything from sinful selfishness and pride, to being
    > blinded by Satan and destined for eternal torment. One
    > thing is forgotten by those whom I love and respect in
    > these circles, that is that I had been there for over
    > eight years and have heard, studied, and examined these
    > beliefs in depth.

    Hearing, studying, and examining are not enough.

    >
    > I do not dismiss them due to ignorance, or the reasons
    > just stated, but due to honesty within myself, empowered
    > by experience and wisdom.

    You chose out of your own free will to reject Christ.

    >
    > Upon the time of this writing, I feel that I am, in a
    > multitude of ways, much more spiritually alive than
    > previously. With the shredding of false and
    > unnecessary binds, freeing me to explore various
    > cultural and historical philosophical and theological
    > ideologies, it becomes an exciting time to be alive.
    > In addition, this freedom has been entwined with my
    > own creative spiritual insights, adding to the
    > expanding fulfillment.

    At the time of this writing, I feel the Holy Spirit coursing
    in every fiber of my being. I know I have eternal life so I
    do not fear death. As I walk with Christ, I watch in
    amazement at what He is able to do in every aspect of my
    life even here within SMC. I have never been more spiritual
    and I see no limits on how much more spiritual He will help
    me become. If I were the same person as I was many years ago
    before I accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior, I
    would have been reduced to having the same obsessive and
    abusive behavior as those whose opposition to Christ I and
    others have witnessed here in SMC.

    > There are still those who will try to bind and
    > control the flow of a freethinker and ex-
    > fundamentalist for whatever the purported reason;
    > they would have you believe that it emanates from
    > sincere belief.

    Those who walk with Christ might share their experiences
    with you but they will not leave their walk with Him to
    control you.

    > I tend to feel that it originates more often than not
    > from one or more of the following; a desire for control,
    > power, self satisfaction, and/or an insecurity that their
    > own beliefs may have gaping holes that can be exposed
    > upon honest objective examination.

    Personally, I would refrain from judging.

    >
    > There are many truths yet to discover, and I am
    > excited about this journey. When all the dust settles
    > from debate, discussion, and searching. I shall
    > choose to die, not in submission with blinders on,
    > but rather in the forefront, with wonderment,
    > honesty, and freedom in my heart.

    In choosing Christ, I have chosen eternal life. May you make
    the same choice someday.

    Until then, you will be in my prayers to God, in
    Christ's name.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
     
  4. On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.

    ................

    I agree.

    So why, Dr. Chung, do you *say* you embrace Him ... when by
    your actions you so obviously not only reject Him, but also
    spit in His face?

    smn
     
  5. terri231

    terri231 Guest

    On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:56:00 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
    >MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.
    >
    >................
    >
    >I agree.
    >
    >So why, Dr. Chung, do you *say* you embrace Him ... when by
    >your actions you so obviously not only reject Him, but also
    >spit in His face?
    >
    >smn

    Why don't you notice that you do the same thing you accuse
    Dr. Chung of doing, Stephen?

    Terri
     
  6. [email protected] wrote:

    > On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:56:00 GMT, Stephen Nagler
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
    > >MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >>The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.
    > >
    > >................
    > >
    > >I agree.
    > >
    > >So why, Dr. Chung, do you *say* you embrace Him ... when
    > >by your actions you so obviously not only reject Him, but
    > >also spit in His face?
    > >
    > >smn
    >
    > Why don't you notice that you do the same thing you accuse
    > Dr. Chung of doing, Stephen?
    >
    > Terri

    In two words:

    Religious Obsession.

    He remains in my prayers to God in Christ's name.

    May he accept Christ as his personal Lord and Savior,
    someday, so that he too will have eternal life and the
    infinite riches of God's kingdom.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
     
  7. Chuckmsrd

    Chuckmsrd Guest

    Dr. Chung, I appreciate your reading and responding to my
    piece. We will likely have to agree to disagree. I was
    indeed born-again for nine years. I have my intellectual
    doubts about Christianity's authenticity. This leads to
    your predictable responsful that I am sinful, relying on
    myself, fooled by Satan, et al: "The human heart is
    desperately wicked..."I know quite a bit about the
    bible. The "trap", as I call it, keeps people in the
    fold and borders on cultic.

    >You and I are more alike than different on an
    >intellectual level.

    Appreciate that, but because I'm choosing a different,
    honest path with my intellect im on the outside and destined
    for eternal wrath?

    >The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.

    No the real choice for me was whether this story was real
    or fiction.

    >Did you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?

    Yes, including leading many others "to Christ"

    >Each person's walk with Christ can be and often is
    >different as each person is different.

    I'll take note of that for future reference

    >I believe that had you accepted Christ as your personal
    >Lord and Savior, you would have had the option that I have
    >had of walking with Him

    I did. I thought we all had different walks with Christ as
    we are all different? Here you label me as not accepting
    Christ because I dont fall into lock step with your idea of
    a believer.

    >> Intellectual honesty within
    >> myself needed to be addressed.
    >
    >Yes, you will have to recognize sin.

    Aahhh "the trap" If you think for yourself then you are
    "sinful"? Scary cultic trap. Great way to keep people
    "within the fold"

    >> I respect, and in a fleeting sense, envy those
    >> who have a deep faith in their religious beliefs.
    >
    >It is our nature to covet. We are sinful.

    More sin? Because im being honest about seeing people who
    are at peace in their beliefs and admiring that?

    >You write that you progressed but I sense you strayed from
    >the truth.

    Again the trap. You learn and it is sinful? I bet if you
    were a phsyician in 1500's you would of been saying that
    about astronomers stating the world is round.

    >Worldly pursuits are too fleeting to be either meaningful
    >or purposeful.

    Everything in this life is temporary. Thus the lure of
    religion and hope of an afterlife. This does not make it
    true.

    >Constantly searching and not finding the meaning of life is
    >disheartening.

    What intrigues me is how people who are firm believers are
    the sole arbitors of truth. You'll say "Christ is the way,
    the truth, the life", but you speak as if you and those who
    think just as you do are the real deal, while my sinful
    seeking is on "the outside".

    >... or possess the wrong theistic belief.

    See above. "They are wrong I am right mentality" Thats
    arrogant.

    >Self-worship is perilous.

    I dont worship myself - just being honest with the intellect
    "God has given me".

    >God is neither illogical nor superstitious.

    Much of basic Christianity is illogical. A man being nailed
    to a tree to pay for passed down sin from a woman who seeked
    knowledge from a tree, specifically an apple. Predestined
    souls created before the foundation of the world yet most
    will burn in hell?........ I could go on and on

    >You chose out of your own free will to reject Christ.

    I thought we were all different in our walks? I guess Im out
    of the loop! A bit judgemental which you claim you are not.

    >but they will not leave their walk with Him to control you.

    No, I've had many believers try to control me *within* their
    walk with much of the same tactics and traps that you use.
    Its very predictable.

    >Personally, I would refrain from judging.

    LOLOLOLOL Thats all youve been doing in regards to my
    opinions!

    >In choosing Christ, I have chosen eternal life.

    Or perhaps a bill of goods and much self delusion?

    Chuck
     
  8. ChuckMSRD wrote:
    >
    > Dr. Chung, I appreciate your reading and responding to my
    > piece.

    You are welcome :)

    > We will likely have to agree to disagree.

    I see this as an exchange rather than a debate.

    > I was indeed born-again for nine years.

    That does not necessarily mean you truly accepted Christ as
    your personal Lord and Savior. Only you and God know for
    certain what is in your heart.

    > I have my intellectual doubts about Christianity's
    > authenticity.

    That is your choice.

    > This leads to your predictable responsful that I am
    > sinful, relying on myself, fooled by Satan, et al: "The
    > human heart is desperately wicked..."

    Here my choice is to refrain from judging.

    > I know quite a bit about the bible.

    As does satan. As does Pastorio. As does Mozz.

    > The "trap", as I call it, keeps people in the fold and
    > borders on cultic

    Judging others is an indication that one is *not* walking
    with Christ.

    > >You and I are more alike than different on an
    > >intellectual level.
    >
    > Appreciate that, but because I'm choosing a different,
    > honest path with my intellect im on the outside and
    > destined for eternal wrath?

    If you choose to judge and not to walk with Christ, you will
    be separated from Him.

    > >The real choice was whether to embrace or reject Christ.
    >
    > No the real choice for me was whether this story was real
    > or fiction.

    Same difference.

    > >Did you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?
    >
    > Yes, including leading many others "to Christ"

    What was your motivation for leading others to Christ?

    > >Each person's walk with Christ can be and often is
    > >different as each person is different.
    >
    > I'll take note of that for future reference
    >
    > >I believe that had you accepted Christ as your personal
    > >Lord and Savior, you would have had the option that I
    > >have had of walking with Him
    >
    > I did.

    I believe that once a person truly accepts Christ as his/her
    personal Lord and Savior, s/he would be unable to renounce
    Him afterwards.

    > I thought we all had different walks with Christ as we are
    > all different?

    Only *after* truly accepting Him.

    > Here you label me as not accepting Christ because I dont
    > fall into lock step with your idea of a believer.

    It remains an observations.

    > >> Intellectual honesty within
    > >> myself needed to be addressed.
    > >
    > >Yes, you will have to recognize sin.
    >
    > Aahhh "the trap" If you think for yourself then you are
    > "sinful"?

    No. If you are honest with yourself, you will recognize sin.

    > Scary cultic trap.

    Sin is not scary.

    > Great way to keep people "within the fold"

    Those who follow Him do so because they love Him.

    > >> I respect, and in a fleeting sense, envy those
    > >> who have a deep faith in their religious beliefs.
    > >
    > >It is our nature to covet. We are sinful.
    >
    > More sin?

    It is our nature. Would suggest you open your eyes and be
    honest with yourself.

    > Because im being honest about seeing people who are at
    > peace in their beliefs and admiring that?

    Envy is not admiration, neighbor.

    > >You write that you progressed but I sense you strayed
    > >from the truth.
    >
    > Again the trap.

    It remains my observation.

    > You learn and it is sinful?

    You covet and coveting is a sin.

    > I bet if you were a phsyician in 1500's you would of been
    > saying that about astronomers stating the world is round.

    Observation is not a sin.

    >
    > >Worldly pursuits are too fleeting to be either meaningful
    > >or purposeful.
    >
    > Everything in this life is temporary.

    Yes.

    > Thus the lure of religion and hope of an afterlife.

    Not all religions describe an afterlife.

    > This does not make it true.

    Do you believe that Jesus Christ was crucified only to be
    resurrected?

    > >Constantly searching and not finding the meaning of life
    > >is disheartening.
    >
    > What intrigues me is how people who are firm believers are
    > the sole arbitors of truth. You'll say "Christ is the way,
    > the truth, the life", but you speak as if you and those
    > who think just as you do are the real deal, while my
    > sinful seeking is on "the outside".

    Seeking is not sin.

    >
    > >... or possess the wrong theistic belief.
    >
    > See above. "They are wrong I am right mentality" Thats
    > arrogant.

    In your seeking, have you not come across right and wrong?

    > >Self-worship is perilous.
    >
    > I dont worship myself - just being honest with the
    > intellect "God has given me".

    What you described was self-worship.

    > >God is neither illogical nor superstitious.
    >
    > Much of basic Christianity is illogical.

    Much of life is illogical.

    > A man being nailed to a tree to pay for passed down sin
    > from a woman who seeked knowledge from a tree,
    > specifically an apple.

    That man was nailed to the tree because other men rejected
    His being the Messiah. This was a sin then as it is a sin
    now. And, yes, this sin is a manifestation of the original
    sin of Eve turning her back on God when she disobeyed Him.

    > Predestined souls created before the foundation of the
    > world yet most will burn in hell?

    Would suggest you reread the parable of the Sower and
    the Weeds.

    >........ I could go on and on

    as can I.

    > >You chose out of your own free will to reject Christ.
    >
    > I thought we were all different in our walks?

    You are not walking with Him.

    > I guess Im out of the loop!

    Seemingly by choice.

    > A bit judgemental which you claim you are not.

    Observations are not judgments.

    > >but they will not leave their walk with Him to
    > >control you.
    >
    > No, I've had many believers try to control me *within*
    > their walk with much of the same tactics and traps that
    > you use.

    What led you to reject Christ?

    > Its very predictable.

    Then why are you still here?

    > >Personally, I would refrain from judging.
    >
    > LOLOLOLOL Thats all youve been doing in regards to my
    > opinions!

    Again, observation is not the same as judging.

    > >In choosing Christ, I have chosen eternal life.
    >
    > Or perhaps a bill of goods and much self delusion?

    Christ is not self.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
     
  9. On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:14:50 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >My objection is to his dishonesty and his hypocrisy, both
    >of which contribute to the sad state in which the validity
    >of his responses and recommendations is highly suspect.

    Coming from a known and well documented liar, this is an
    interesting case of hypocrisy in and of itself, Nagler.

    Wanna have lunch?

    lol

    http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960222.html Lift well,
    Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
     
  10. On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Blind acceptance of the belief systems of fundamentalist
    >Christianity is a form of tribal thinking.

    Sure is. Can you say "Catholic".

    http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960222.html Lift well,
    Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
     
  11. On 29 Apr 2004 07:47:56 GMT, [email protected] (ChuckMSRD) wrote:

    >Dr. Chung, I appreciate your reading and responding to my
    > piece. We will likely have to agree to disagree. I was
    > indeed born-again for nine years. I have my
    > intellectual doubts about Christianity's authenticity.

    That's your problem.

    > This leads to your predictable responsful that I am
    > sinful, relying on myself, fooled by Satan, et al: "The
    > human heart is desperately wicked..."I know quite a bit
    > about the bible. The "trap", as I call it, keeps people in
    > the fold and borders on cultic.

    If the truth traps you, how badly are you actually
    "trapped"?

    http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960222.html Lift well,
    Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
     
  12. Chuckmsrd

    Chuckmsrd Guest

    I think a clear difference between you and I is that I
    accept the posibility that I may be wrong. I guarantee you
    would not even entertain the notion in the smallest way that
    you may possibly be wrong. That you have accepted a lie and
    are self deluded. Is it at all possible Dr.? I think it is
    arrogant for any mortal human being to believe that they are
    the sole arbitor of enlightenment and have been given *the*
    truth from God. All religions claim divine truth so many,
    many are wrong - perhaps you are Dr but youll never
    entertain that notion. Chuck
     
  13. Munar Dust

    Munar Dust Guest

    On 30 Apr 2004 09:07:56 GMT, [email protected] (ChuckMSRD) wrote:

    >I think a clear difference between you and I is that I
    >accept the posibility that I may be wrong. I guarantee you
    >would not even entertain the notion in the smallest way
    >that you may possibly be wrong.

    Guess what? You're right, you're wrong.

    >That you have accepted a lie and are self deluded. Is it at
    >all possible Dr.?

    I'm not a doctor.

    Strike Two.

    > I think it is arrogant for any mortal human being to
    > believe that they are the sole arbitor of enlightenment
    > and have been given *the* truth from God. All religions
    > claim divine truth so many, many are wrong - perhaps you
    > are Dr but youll never entertain that notion.

    Strike Three. You're out.
    http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap960222.html Lift well,
    Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
     
  14. ChuckMSRD wrote:

    > I think a clear difference between you and I is that I
    > accept the posibility that I may be wrong.

    If I believed I were never wrong, it would mean that I
    believe I were a god. This would be one of the perils of self-
    worship which is not applicable to me (though I suspect it
    is applicable to you).

    > I guarantee you would not even entertain the notion in the
    > smallest way that you may possibly be wrong.

    That betrays your tendency to self-worship. Self worshippers
    believe they can guarantee anything (ie that they are
    themselves gods or masters of their own universe).

    > That you have accepted a lie and are self deluded.

    It would seem that you are gazing into a mirror.

    > Is it at all possible Dr.?

    No. Christ is not self.

    > I think it is arrogant for any mortal human being to
    > believe that they are the sole arbitor of enlightenment

    Agree.

    >
    > and have been given *the* truth from God.

    We have *all* been given Christ, who is the truth from God.

    It remains your choice to reject Him.

    >
    > All religions claim divine truth so many, many are wrong -

    Actually, not all religions claim divine truth.

    > perhaps you are Dr but youll never entertain that notion.

    See above.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
     
  15. ChuckMSRD wrote:

    > >If I believed I were never wrong, it would mean that I
    > >believe I were a god.
    >
    > I meant specifically wrong about your theistic beliefs.

    Faith is never wrong even if misplaced.

    > Just let it be known that I *hope* I am wrong.

    Your faith seems to be misplaced.

    > My Mother passed 2 years ago and was a Christian woman. I
    > want nothing more than to see, hold, talk to her again.

    (1) If you are wrong about rejecting Christ, we would share
    the belief that you will never see your mother again.

    (2) If you are right about rejecting Christ, we would
    still share the belief that you will never see your
    mother again.

    (3) If you accept Christ and stop rejecting Him, we will
    share the belief that you will see your mother again.

    Logically, the correct choice is (3) if you truly want to
    see your mother again.

    > Wanting does not mean believing.

    Faith is more than just believing.

    > I may want the moon to be made of green cheese -

    Faith is more than wanting.

    > but wanting still makes it silly.

    If it is truly what you want, who should judge you to
    be foolish?

    > I dont believe God will punish me for my honest doubts.

    If someone does not invite you to a private party, is that
    someone punishing you?

    > I have a different notion of God than someone ready to
    > smite and fry in Hell anyone who rejects his son due to
    > legimitimate doubts and inconsistencies in the bible.

    I also hold a different notion:

    http://www.heartmdphd.com/christ.asp

    > Perhaps Christ himself would speak to you as he did to the
    > pharisees as having a religious, elitist attitude, and a
    > good-hearted doubter like me with open arms.

    What you are reading is what He would have me write to you.

    > Just a thought Doc.
    >

    You remain in my prayers, Chuck.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
     
  16. Bob

    Bob Guest

    Home, Home On The Mu_n wrote:

    > On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 13:40:55 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
    > MD/PhD" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Blind acceptance of the belief systems of fundamentalist
    >>Christianity is a form of tribal thinking.
    >
    > Sure is. Can you say "Catholic".

    Sure. Can you say fundamentalist wacko?

    Catholicism isn't a fundamentalist religion like your
    selective vision of Christianity. Pick and choose what you
    like and discard the inconvenient parts. Real honest. Real
    smart to trifle with God.

    Bob
     
  17. Bob

    Bob Guest

    Home, Home On The Mu_n wrote:

    > On 29 Apr 2004 07:47:56 GMT, [email protected]
    > (ChuckMSRD) wrote:
    >
    >>Dr. Chung, I appreciate your reading and responding to my
    >> piece. We will likely have to agree to disagree. I was
    >> indeed born-again for nine years. I have my
    >> intellectual doubts about Christianity's authenticity.
    >
    > That's your problem.

    How stupidly hostile for no good reason.

    >>This leads to your predictable responsful that I am
    >>sinful, relying on myself, fooled by Satan, et al: "The
    >>human heart is desperately wicked..."I know quite a bit
    >>about the bible. The "trap", as I call it, keeps people in
    >>the fold and borders on cultic.
    >
    > If the truth traps you, how badly are you actually
    > "trapped"?

    I'm typing slowly just for you. If it's a trap, its
    truthfulness is suspect. See how that works? Didn't think
    so.

    Bob
     
  18. ChuckMSRD wrote:
    >
    > >(3) If you accept Christ and stop rejecting Him, we will
    > > share the belief that you will see your mother again.
    >
    > You speak on the premise that I *know* Christ is real

    *If* you accept Christ, by definition you *believe* Christ
    is your personal Lord and Savior. A small part of this
    belief is believing/knowing that Christ is real. Afterall,
    Satan and his minions *know* that Christ is real.

    > and im rejecting him still.

    It would seem that you are not unlike either Stephen or Bob
    in this regard.

    > I dont believe that Christianity is real, so how can I
    > reject fiction?

    You reject Christ with this rhetorical question.

    > Again I use the analogy that if you said, "Chuck if you
    > will only accept that the moon is made of blue cheese you
    > will see your mom again and have eternal life in Cheese's
    > name". To me they are equally silly.

    That is the choice you have made.

    > >What you are reading is what He would have me write
    > >to you.
    >
    > So Christ is speaking through you.

    No. It remains my choice to walk with Christ and so He
    guides me.

    > Not the liberal theologian I spoke to you yesterday
    > who said loving your neighbor as yourself is more
    > important than following fundamentalist dogmas? A
    > chosen one you are!

    All true Christians are chosen ones.

    >
    > >You remain in my prayers, Chuck.
    >
    > I wish you well and appreciate your cardiology input
    > on the NG

    Thank you for the well wishes and appreciation.

    All the glory belongs to my boss, who is also my Savior.

    You remain in my prayers, Chuck.

    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?W1F522557

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2DB148A7

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?N69721867
     
  19. On Sun, 02 May 2004 03:40:24 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >It would seem that you are not unlike either Stephen or Bob
    >in this regard.

    ..................

    Dr. Chung:

    Regarding matters of medicine and religion, last week I
    agreed not to address you and not to refer to you on this
    newsgroup.

    I will expect you to show me the same courtesy.

    stephen nagler
     
  20. Bob

    Bob Guest

    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

    > ChuckMSRD wrote:

    >>You speak on the premise that I *know* Christ is real
    >
    > *If* you accept Christ, by definition you *believe* Christ
    > is your personal Lord and Savior. A small part of this
    > belief is believing/knowing that Christ is real. Afterall,
    > Satan and his minions *know* that Christ is real.
    >
    >>and im rejecting him still.
    >
    > It would seem that you are not unlike either Stephen or
    > Bob in this regard.

    Chung thinks that rejecting the fraudulence and quackery
    of a sadly disturbed fundamentalist wacko is somehow
    rejecting Jesus.

    Shows the depths of the disturbance. Shows the lameness of
    his claim to "discern truth." Poor shabby Chung...

    Bob
     
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