Felt,
Have you ever considered having a go at track sprinting/kilo - if there's a track in your area that is?
Have you ever considered having a go at track sprinting/kilo - if there's a track in your area that is?
Sequencing Workouts/Intensity
- Thread starter LT Intolerant
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I cannot tell you how many people in my local scene have asked me that question. I suppose I must give that type of appearance. There is a track, but it is way on the opposite side of Atlanta from me. I have a friend that bought a track bike and used it once at that track, but I don't think he ever returned and I think it must be the drive time and the difficulty getting a time slot on the track.
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I have been thinking or reevaluating where I am at and where I hope to go with cycling.
I think of it like trying to piece together a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle. Based on my experience competing in a different activity I understand you first need a clear view of the picture or the final results and then start to look at the various pieces. You start separating the pieces out while looking at each one as an individual aspect and then you begin to start putting it together.
A bit more than a year ago my picture of cycling (goals) and what I would like to achieve finally became clear to me. Without going into all the finer details I finally came to the point of being content with a training schedule and one that I felt would help put this puzzle together.
However, I am still considering some small tweaks like what Stevel suggested. I may tweak the schedule as far as interval intensity, but that too has to work out with the overall picture. Generally I feel like I am on track to putting my puzzle together. It really does not suprise me that potentially I will not achieve a higher level (good FTP) performance in cycling and it does not disturb me that I may never achieve this. I still enjoy training hard and with some sort of organization to the schedule with sound training principles.
I mentioned in a previous post a guy that I trained whose genetics did not result in obvious improvements as far as gains in lean mass or noticeable strength gains and I can testify the guy earnestly put in the effort as I tried to help him, but he did not get discouraged. He continued to lift weights just because he enjoyed lifting weights. That is how I view my days in cycling. It is not my forte, but I do enjoy the activity and I enjoy training. I also enjoy learning sound training principles, but I may not necessarily apply all of them since I do not plan on competing.
Good stuff guys and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Felt-
20 sets of squats???? I wouldn't even want to see a bike (or a chair, or anyone else) after that.
It just seems like somethings gotta give. I'm not much of a lifter, but once the initial "shock" of pumping iron wears off, DOMS (for me) usually fades out (that takes much longer at 40 than 20). Back off the lifting and FTP will likely pop. Or back off the cycling 'till your body adapts better to the weights and then ramp up. But both at the same time sounds like stagnation and misery.
Thanks to Dave and RDO's suggestions, I've seen real gains in FTP in the last three months, and have done some kettle bell training and other stuff to maintain core strength, but nothing like what you're talking about. And my CTL is only around 50 right now (time seems to be conspiring against me), with the goal of getting it to 80 or so.
20 sets of squats???? I wouldn't even want to see a bike (or a chair, or anyone else) after that.
It just seems like somethings gotta give. I'm not much of a lifter, but once the initial "shock" of pumping iron wears off, DOMS (for me) usually fades out (that takes much longer at 40 than 20). Back off the lifting and FTP will likely pop. Or back off the cycling 'till your body adapts better to the weights and then ramp up. But both at the same time sounds like stagnation and misery.
Thanks to Dave and RDO's suggestions, I've seen real gains in FTP in the last three months, and have done some kettle bell training and other stuff to maintain core strength, but nothing like what you're talking about. And my CTL is only around 50 right now (time seems to be conspiring against me), with the goal of getting it to 80 or so.
whew....I had to check what I wrote.....20 sets for legs mainly squats, but not all squats./img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif Although that is fairly light compared to my days in prime time that had up to 40 sets for legs. There is a picture of my legs at this link from back in the day of competing in bodybuilding. Link It took many years to build up or adapt to that type of training load just like it does for cyclists to handle 15 hours or more a week. I am still new to cycling and start feeling the limit at around 10 hours of structured training. I know that will get better the more I stick with it.
train more so you can train more
I am a lifter that enjoys cycling, but I am fading in the lifting department since I cannot handle that much weight on my back anymore. All of this has been sort of a personal experiment to see what will happen juggling the two. It is going just like I expected. You cannot be progressive in both. There is not enough time to train progressively and recover from both just as I figured, but am at that point in my life where I am going to just do it anyway because I enjoy both. I hope to carry some strength and cardio fitness into my older years.
Keep following Dave and RDO's suggestions. The two of them gave me good direction as well and even though I cannot train full out in cycling because of the lifting I have still improved a little bit.
I have been watching your posts on the other thread.....good going
[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)]"There is a picture of my legs at this link from back in the day of competing in bodybuilding. [/COLOR]Link[COLOR= rgb(24, 24, 24)] "[/COLOR]
Holy **** man.... Like the say, a picture is worth a thousand words. From your rather modest descriptions in previous threads, I doubt anyone will be expecting what they see in your link.
Holy **** man.... Like the say, a picture is worth a thousand words. From your rather modest descriptions in previous threads, I doubt anyone will be expecting what they see in your link.
/img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif maybe a picture will explain why I have not done as well in cycling and why it hard to spin over 80 rpm cadence, but I am morphing into a cyclist a little more each year and I am smaller and unimpressive in the gym world now. From 190 lb off season weight now down to 168 lb crossfit kind of guy, but crossfit / garage games are all the rage in my area now combining strength and endurance events. Maybe there is a place for me in this world. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
A friend of my son runs a crossfit studio here near Tampa. I suspect that you would be an ideal fit for that competition. He is big into the current competition and is top 10% or so this year, up from last year in his attempt to qualify for the national games.Felt_Rider said:
That is really impressive. A lot of those guys and gals are as fit if not more fit than those making it through Navy Seal training.
Being on topic....they really have a lot factoring on Sequencing Workouts/Intensity. From what I understand it is full out every training session.
My chiropractor is a judge at the local events and when he describes what the contestants have to do it makes me feel like a real slacker in my training - past and present.
Wow. Those are some sequoias. (You should have just posted a pic of your quads. Then everyone would have been confused. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif)
In looking at your history--80 is a big base. The rides themselves, though, seem fairly flat (?). What would happen if you went to either 5x1, or 5x5 for a little while (really short rides for a couple of weeks). And then go back to the FTP/SST stuff? Not enough to bring on a full peak, but enough to "pull" your FTP up. (E.g., more rest). Have you tried any of this stuff? Or is it just too hard with the lifting load?
In looking at your history--80 is a big base. The rides themselves, though, seem fairly flat (?). What would happen if you went to either 5x1, or 5x5 for a little while (really short rides for a couple of weeks). And then go back to the FTP/SST stuff? Not enough to bring on a full peak, but enough to "pull" your FTP up. (E.g., more rest). Have you tried any of this stuff? Or is it just too hard with the lifting load?
I needed to put in an edit to your post /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif , but thanks
I went on this quest more than a year ago with Dave and RDO being kind of enough to give me some suggestions on how to improve my endurance on long distance events. In a simple format it pretty much is sustained periods of time at submaximal power output and consistency in schedule. It was not a detailed program, but I started trying to do longer sessions of L3/SST/L4 and though my FTP is not great I do feel like my endurance has drastically improved.
I do pick a flatter route trying to hit those long blocks of training at level outside. I stopped riding with my group to reduce coasting, drafting and stop time. My goal for the outdoor route is getting it as close to the quality of indoor training as I can.
I think it is going to be difficult to throw in L5 type work with lifting, but I am considering giving it a try. It typically takes 3 or 4 days to recover from training my legs on Monday morning, but I go ahead and do indoor intervals on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings. The discomfort of going to L4 with legs that are already sore is almost more than I can take mentally.
I did 3 five minute L5 intervals at the end of and L4 session last night just toying around and I was able to hit that level. So it may be that Thursday's I could be recovered enough and may be able to coax my legs into hitting some L5's. I may give it a try next week.
"Being on topic....they really have a lot factoring on Sequencing Workouts/Intensity. From what I understand it is full out every training session.
My chiropractor is a judge at the local events and when he describes what the contestants have to do it makes me feel like a real slacker in my training - past and present".
I haven't done any of the crossfit training, but from what I see and hear from my DIL and Son and their friends that do, there seems to be several "versions" of crossfit. Some that stress more endurance, some that stress more strength, and a few that stress both. My DIL changed locations, when after being an avid MTN biker had to carry her bike up the hills after being off the bike for a few months. She was strong, but had no endurance. Clearly after watching the national competition on TV a few weeks ago, those that succeed have great strength, and significant, if not cyclist type endurance.
DAL
My chiropractor is a judge at the local events and when he describes what the contestants have to do it makes me feel like a real slacker in my training - past and present".
I haven't done any of the crossfit training, but from what I see and hear from my DIL and Son and their friends that do, there seems to be several "versions" of crossfit. Some that stress more endurance, some that stress more strength, and a few that stress both. My DIL changed locations, when after being an avid MTN biker had to carry her bike up the hills after being off the bike for a few months. She was strong, but had no endurance. Clearly after watching the national competition on TV a few weeks ago, those that succeed have great strength, and significant, if not cyclist type endurance.
DAL
I have been doing long rides on Saturday's not necessarily for fitness as much as for some other aspects. I feel like I need a few more weeks to work out some items on the longer distance courses and it is a good time before we get into the really hot summer days.
By doing the longer routes either solo or with one or two more I am:
- Working on mental focus and attitude
- Experimenting with food/nutrition and fluid intake
- Getting my body used to long periods of time down on the drops
- Working on using the PM to pace myself over the distance
The mental aspect was one of my earlier hurdles. I am very used to training hard for a short period of time, but being out there for 5+ hours my focus drifts or if my attitude gets to, "okay, I've had enough of this" the body seems more than willing to shut it down. That would often happen to me in years past when doing a century and at 70 miles or so, either from boredom or something else, the mind was just ready to get off the bike. As soon as this would happen everything just went down and I noticed the body seemed to follow the direction of the mind. Sports psychology is something that I have taken just as serious as sports physiology. I found in myself and coaching others that if you cannot get over the mental hurdles you probably are not going to succeed. You may do well, but it is hard to set personal records with a negative attitude. I wrote this back in 2008 and though I do not practice visualization now I feel like getting in and doing these long distance rides over and over has changed my mental focus to the positive. It is crazy how an 80 to a 100 mile route now seems normal. If I were doing the long rides swampy is doing I would need to work on my attitude some more.
The food aspect I am getting better and I am getting closer to finding the right combination and timing of intake for long distance. I try to post all of that on my ride entry on the blog to keep note and just a couple weeks ago the guy riding with me on a 100 mile route drank some gatorade and ended up really struggling for about 40 miles on the return with stomach cramps. This is something I feel that is important to get worked out. Now when I do organized events I do not use anything from the sag stops for fear of sabotaging myself. The only thing I will do is refill with water. I carry my own powder mix for the refills and carry my own food.
The bike position or sitting down in the drops for extended period. I took me a long time to get this bulky body to learn to sit down in that position for extended time, but sitting upright on a long distance solo ride for me is like riding with a parachute and in the drops probably is not a whole lot better. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
The power meter pacing aspect. I am getting better at pacing using the power meter and with the Edge 800 having TSS I have been able to kind of gauge my intensity based on course gradient, length and other aspects. It takes practice using the PM and over a number of these longer rides I am getting the feel for not only using the PM during the ride, but the how the ride will impact following training days.
So I feel a few more weeks at least to continue working on figuring out some of these details and hopefully my body will also get better at coping with 300+ TSS days.
dumb as a stump!
TSS is NOT synonymous with the impulse response model itself.. what are you talking about?? this shows that you are completely clueless.. you simply don't understand even ONE iota of this...
TSS is the is simply the input to the performance manger model... in banister's model TSS would be synonymous to TRIMPS i.e. (x hrs) * (y heart rate).. or for weight lifting.. so many lifts at whatever weight.. this is simlply the input.. it's not the model.. the model is tuned to use that particular input to predict performance...
at least read a little bit so that your idiotic arguments make a little bit of sense! your statement above makes NO SENSE on any kind of level and shows almost total ignorance...
and when are you going to post a file?
I am sorry you are dumb as a stump.
Mr. Coggan has a paper that defines NP, IF, and TSS and how they are related. He claims some relationship for those terms to Dr. Bannister's work (impulse response).
What you do with TSS is up to you.
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I don't think I work for you. As I said in another thread: I don't work for frauds. I don't work for bullies. I don't work liars. You seem to qualify for one of those groups.
oh my god you're stupid!! y = 2x(3 - x^3)/25... y is a function of x... is y equal to x?? no, dumb ass!!! TSB is a function of CTL and ATL.. CTL and ATL are functions of TSS.. TSS is a function of NP.. are any of those things equivalent to one another.. NO.. freak'n get a clue! have you ever passed a math or logic class in your life? you can't even understand or put together even the most basic logical arguments and you have obviously not read or are simply to stupid to understand any of the concepts behind the impulse response model or the performance manager models... as I said.. dumb as a stump!
care to have another go and see how far you can stick you foot in your mouth this time? I actually understand this stuff.. you don't.. stop making a fool out of yourself... this is not even good sport.. it's too easy..
I guess you are saying all the terms are functions of NP. I don't know where you think I said the terms were equal. I did say that one can use any of the terms in talking about the issues I have been talking about. That does not make them equal it simply means that we can talk about them as a group. I used to list them all in my sentences, but it became too time consuming.
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You have to be very careful, because (and I will try to get this correct) while NP has something to do with glycogen utilization, CTL and ATL do not. I don't want to get into that part of your religion until I am a believer of NP.
It totally blows my mind how someone can argue and debate so vigorously about something when it is so clear they have no understanding of even the most basic concepts of what they are arguing about. Also they claim to utilize the tool that they are arguing against and based on the lack of basic knowledge it is pretty clear that their claims of using it or even having a PM is complete BS.
To me it is pretty obvious that all of Old Guys garble is the result of just trying to read threads and forums and base everything on what he thinks the reality is and has absolutely no real experience using anything he is debating. If he did his arguments would be much more logical and he would have at least some basic knowledge of all of this.
To me it is pretty obvious that all of Old Guys garble is the result of just trying to read threads and forums and base everything on what he thinks the reality is and has absolutely no real experience using anything he is debating. If he did his arguments would be much more logical and he would have at least some basic knowledge of all of this.
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