Seriously; where should a bikie retire?



Mark Hickey wrote:

>
> The best thing about the "Bay Area" is that you can live almost
> anywhere in the country and be there...
>


If it's capitalized, it's OUR Bay Area and OUR City. All those other
ones are lower case.

A great place to live and ride, maybe not so great to move to in retirement.
 
"Diablo Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>>
>> The best thing about the "Bay Area" is that you can live almost
>> anywhere in the country and be there...
>>

>
> If it's capitalized, it's OUR Bay Area and OUR City. All those other ones
> are lower case.
>
> A great place to live and ride, maybe not so great to move to in
> retirement.


The Bay Area is nice, but too expensive of an area to retire in. The price
of homes here is outrageous as well as the price of gas and general cost of
living (higher than most states). We bought our home in the 80's when then
market was still affordable, so when I retire, I could either rent it, or
get a good price.
-tom
 
Jim wrote:
> Wrong forum I know, but the other rec.bicycles forums are now inhabited by
> trolls...
> Anyone here know a USA destination with well-paved mountain roads, thin
> traffic & pleasant weather? I'm looking to buy a vacation/retirement home
> fit for a bikie.
> No pricey ski resorts needed, just good road riding.
> Best,
> Jim


Others have already mentioned it but the slightly northern part of the
SE part of the country may fit your requirements. Tennessee and North
Carolina in particular. NC has a fairly active bicycling community. I
believe the US bicycle race to pick a national champion was moved to
South Carolina from Philadelphia beginning next year. Obviously SC is
close to NC and TN. Performance mail order catalog is headquartered in
NC.

Pleasant riding weather year round, although the locals probably
imagine they have winter. Cycle North Carolina is in early October. I
was on it a few years ago and it was ideal biking weather. Even the
bad day only had cold rain for an hour at Noon. And the cold was only
in the 40s. Bike Ride Arond Tennessee is held in mid September. Ideal
biking weather.

I have met people who retired to the mountains of NC so you would not
be alone. But that also means the prices may have escalated. But
since you are going there for slightly different reasons, you could
pick a less costly area than the official retirement areas and be just
as happy. About anywhere in eastern TN or western NC will get you into
mountainous territory.

Both states have quite a few paved back roads without much car traffic.
And few potholes due to the lack of freezing in the states.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The Bay Area is nice, but too expensive of an area to retire in. The price
> of homes here is outrageous as well as the price of gas and general cost of
> living (higher than most states). We bought our home in the 80's when then
> market was still affordable, so when I retire, I could either rent it, or
> get a good price.
> -tom


Also, while the climate is good and there's plenty of places to ride,
there's too much traffic and it's getting worse because of new
development.

--
Mike DeMicco <[email protected]>
 
"Mike DeMicco" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The Bay Area is nice, but too expensive of an area to retire in. The
>> price
>> of homes here is outrageous as well as the price of gas and general cost
>> of
>> living (higher than most states). We bought our home in the 80's when
>> then
>> market was still affordable, so when I retire, I could either rent it, or
>> get a good price.
>> -tom

>
> Also, while the climate is good and there's plenty of places to ride,
> there's too much traffic and it's getting worse because of new
> development.
>
> --
> Mike DeMicco <[email protected]>


Yes, agree Mike,
Traffic is terrible in the Bay Area.
I love riding the back roads early Sunday mornings, either people are at
church or sleeping in.
-tom
 
San Diego is the best place for any kind of biking you want to do.
Great roads, beaches, and the best weather anywhere on the planet.
The only problem is the cost of real estate, property and income
taxes. Try living just south of the the border near San Diego. Same
great weather, great riding, great beaches, and much lower cost of
living.
 
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:15:02 -0800, Mike DeMicco
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Ideally, be able to ride all year round,
>have a lot of acreage (relatively cheap)


I live in SoCal almost at the gate of Angeles Crest NF in Sunland.
The San Gabriel Mtns., Santa Monica Mtns, and others are within
cycling from the house as is Venice Beach, Malibu, and the other beach
cities.

There are many not so great things to say about Los Angeles but the
cycling is outstanding all year.

Your desire, "lots of acreage (relatively cheap), will rule out most
of CA.
 
Paul Kopit <[email protected]> writes:

> On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:15:02 -0800, Mike DeMicco
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Ideally, be able to ride all year round, have a lot of acreage
>>(relatively cheap)


<snip>

> Your desire, "lots of acreage (relatively cheap), will rule out most
> of CA.


Or most anywhere in the US with a developed infrastructure. Roads are
expensive to build and maintain, and hence taxes are commensurate.
 
"Paul Kopit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:15:02 -0800, Mike DeMicco
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Ideally, be able to ride all year round,
> >have a lot of acreage (relatively cheap)

>
> I live in SoCal almost at the gate of Angeles Crest NF in Sunland.
> The San Gabriel Mtns., Santa Monica Mtns, and others are within
> cycling from the house as is Venice Beach, Malibu, and the other beach
> cities.
>
> There are many not so great things to say about Los Angeles but the
> cycling is outstanding all year.
>


I'm right up the street from you off of Foothill and the 2. Great location
to access mtn bike rides in the San Gabriels and Verdugos, and now that I
have a road bike I'll be joining the legions heading around and up Big T,
I'll probably avoid Hwy 2, though.

Greg
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
> Or most anywhere in the US with a developed infrastructure. Roads are
> expensive to build and maintain, and hence taxes are commensurate.


I hear a lot about how expensive roads are... but somehow lower middle
class people in sparsely populated central Illinois farm country (where
I grew up) are able to afford nice paved roads on a 1 mile grid.

The guys who build and maintain these roads are locals who are hired by
the township. A portion of the property taxes pays for it all.

The roads to population ratio is much lower in most parts of the
country... so why are they so "expensive"?
 
"Ron Ruff" <[email protected]> writes:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> Or most anywhere in the US with a developed infrastructure. Roads are
>> expensive to build and maintain, and hence taxes are commensurate.

>
> I hear a lot about how expensive roads are... but somehow lower
> middle class people in sparsely populated central Illinois farm
> country (where I grew up) are able to afford nice paved roads on a 1
> mile grid.


Because they are only paying part of the real cost. Given what roads
cost to build and maintain, it's unlikely that the handful of farmers
and small town residents in the area could bear the burden of paying
those costs.

> The guys who build and maintain these roads are locals who are hired
> by the township. A portion of the property taxes pays for it all.


Probably only partially paid for by property taxes. In most states
roads are paid for in large part out of the general fund (e.g., income
and sales taxes) and whatever money can be gotten from the Federal
government (e.g., pork).

> The roads to population ratio is much lower in most parts of the
> country... so why are they so "expensive"?


Roads cost a lot to engineer and build. There are lots of costs: land
aquisition, surveying and layout, engineering, construction, etc.
Asphalt is made in part from oil, which ain't cheap anymore, and there
are over 2 million miles of asphalt roads in the US. According to
Chevron's Web site, a barrel of oil yields about one gallon of tar
after refining into all the various products that can be extracted
from the oil.

There are regional variations of course. In Arkansas, for example,
estimated construction costs for a new two lane rural road are $2.1
million per mile. In the mountains, $2.25 million per mile. In urban
areas, $2.45 million per mile. Of course, reconstructing an existing
roadway is much much cheaper- $800,000 per lane mile (so $1.6 million
per mile for a two lane road).

http://www.ahtd.state.ar.us/Roadway/Costs per Mile.pdf?Record_Number=8

In 1996, costs for highway construction apparently averaged about $1
million per mile:

http://www-pam.usc.edu/volume2/v2i1a3s2.html

In Washington State, costs are higher that Arkansas:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/accountability/2005GasTax/QandA.htm

Drivers are insulated from the actual costs of driving by diffusing
the costs over a variety of funding mechanisms (vehicle taxes, fuel
taxes, property taxes and assessments, state general funds, federal
funds, etc). This prevents the per-mile cost of driving from being so
high that only the rich can afford to drive. Interestingly enough,
all the "total driving cost" Web sites I could find only included the
individual costs of driving (buying a car, insuring it, fueling it,
etc) and left out the infrastructure costs or environmental damage
costs.
 
Ron Ruff wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > Or most anywhere in the US with a developed infrastructure. Roads are
> > expensive to build and maintain, and hence taxes are commensurate.

>
> I hear a lot about how expensive roads are... but somehow lower middle
> class people in sparsely populated central Illinois farm country (where
> I grew up) are able to afford nice paved roads on a 1 mile grid....


Do you consider chip seal to be nice? Even worse than the rough ride is
all the loose aggregate that builds up at the corners [1]. I often
though on group rides that the front rider should yell "no gravel" at
the exceptional clean corner on the assumption that all the rest had
loose material.

[1] I knew someone that fell and fractured his hip going around at
corner.

--
Tom Sherman - Former Champaign County resident
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
> ...
> Asphalt is made in part from oil, which ain't cheap anymore, and there
> are over 2 million miles of asphalt roads in the US. According to
> Chevron's Web site, a barrel of oil yields about one gallon of tar
> after refining into all the various products that can be extracted
> from the oil....


Unless it is polymer modified, the asphalt cement used in most
countries [1] is sourced completely from crude oil (the portion that is
left over after the lighter fractions of crude oil have been
extracted).

Tar is made from coal, asphaltic cement from crude oil.

[1] There are some natural asphalt sources, such as Lake Trinidad and
the misnamed La Brea Tar Pits.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit?)
 
"Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> writes:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>> ... Asphalt is made in part from oil, which ain't cheap anymore,
>> and there are over 2 million miles of asphalt roads in the US.
>> According to Chevron's Web site, a barrel of oil yields about one
>> gallon of tar after refining into all the various products that can
>> be extracted from the oil....

>
> Unless it is polymer modified, the asphalt cement used in most
> countries [1] is sourced completely from crude oil (the portion that
> is left over after the lighter fractions of crude oil have been
> extracted).
>
> Tar is made from coal, asphaltic cement from crude oil.


I'm afraid it is a distinction that is lost on me. The Chevron Web
site actually stated that one barrel of crude yields one gallon of
asphalt, but I rendered it as "tar" to avoid confusion with "asphalt"
as most people in the US think of it. Apparently I goofed up when I
did so.
 
"Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mike DeMicco" <[email protected]> wrote
>> "Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> The Bay Area is nice, but too expensive of an area to retire in. The
>>> price
>>> of homes here is outrageous as well as the price of gas and general cost
>>> of
>>> living (higher than most states). We bought our home in the 80's when
>>> then
>>> market was still affordable, so when I retire, I could either rent it, or
>>> get a good price.

>>
>> Also, while the climate is good and there's plenty of places to ride,
>> there's too much traffic and it's getting worse because of new
>> development.

>
>Yes, agree Mike,
>Traffic is terrible in the Bay Area.
>I love riding the back roads early Sunday mornings, either people are at
>church or sleeping in.


And the water views are really nice in the Bay Area, though it can be
windy.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> There are regional variations of course. In Arkansas, for example,
> estimated construction costs for a new two lane rural road are $2.1
> million per mile. In the mountains, $2.25 million per mile. In urban
> areas, $2.45 million per mile. Of course, reconstructing an existing
> roadway is much much cheaper- $800,000 per lane mile (so $1.6 million
> per mile for a two lane road).


If the rural roads really cost that much, they certainly wouldn't have
them... they'd still be on dirt and/or gravel. I've no doubt that
governments suck that much money out of the economy to pay for state
and federal highways, but only because they are horrendously
inefficient.

OK, the roads I'm talking about are not as nice as a good highway, but
they are hard and fairly smooth... I think they are fine to use a road
bike on. They are better than many of the roads I frequent on Kauai.

And they simply don't cost anything like a million dollars a mile. The
county where I grew up has 750 sq miles and 23,000 people. At 2 miles
of road per square mile (1500 miles of roads) and if they cost a mere
million per mile, that comes to 1.5 billion! Guessing that a quarter of
the population is rural, that would be $260,000 per person for the
roads where they live.

My Dad has a 1/4 mile road going to his property that he built and
maintains himself. I asked him a couple of years ago what he thought
the cost to build a typical rural road would be these days, and he
estimated maybe $20,000 per mile. And logically, if they cost much more
than that they wouldn't (couldn't) exist.
 
Quoting Tim McNamara <[email protected]>:
>Asphalt is made in part from oil, which ain't cheap anymore, and there
>are over 2 million miles of asphalt roads in the US. According to
>Chevron's Web site, a barrel of oil yields about one gallon of tar
>after refining into all the various products that can be extracted
>from the oil.


Oil isn't cheap, but this leftover gunge is; there's more demand for the
other byproducts, so it's a matter of selling the gunge cheap or trying to
throw it away...
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Mania, January.
 
Ron Ruff wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>>There are regional variations of course. In Arkansas, for example,
>>estimated construction costs for a new two lane rural road are $2.1
>>million per mile. In the mountains, $2.25 million per mile. In urban
>>areas, $2.45 million per mile. Of course, reconstructing an existing
>>roadway is much much cheaper- $800,000 per lane mile (so $1.6 million
>>per mile for a two lane road).

>
>
> My Dad has a 1/4 mile road going to his property that he built and
> maintains himself. I asked him a couple of years ago what he thought
> the cost to build a typical rural road would be these days, and he
> estimated maybe $20,000 per mile. And logically, if they cost much more
> than that they wouldn't (couldn't) exist.


When my dad built his driveway, about 10 years ago, the price he paid
would eat up that $20,000 per mile just for foundation and fill material
for a one-lane driveway. Add in land acquisition costs, engineering,
pavement, equipment (bulldozers, graders, pavers) and labor costs to
build a road from scratch; I don't know if you'd hit two million
dollars/mile, but I'd expect it to be way over $20,000. Throw in an
occasional culvert, bridge, ditching and so forth, and I'd guess the $2
million per mile is about right.

Pat
 
[email protected] wrote:
> as happy. About anywhere in eastern TN or western NC will get you into
> mountainous territory.
>
> Both states have quite a few paved back roads without much car traffic.
> And few potholes due to the lack of freezing in the states.


Would that were the case! True, both states do a pertty good job with
major highways, but the mountain counties on both side of the state line
have a hard time with the back roads; too many roads, too much wear and
tear, and not enough money to repave. Tennessee is better than North
Carolina, IMO, but both have enough snow to have to plow the back roads,
and the potholes that result get pretty bad. NC mountains have some
"paved" roads that make pickup trucks look like bicycles riding the
cobblestones in France and Belgium. (Strangely enough, the roads in
Wake County around the state capital are some of the best I've ever seen
-- go figure!)

Pat
 
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:37:02 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'll be joining the legions heading around and up Big T,
>I'll probably avoid Hwy 2, though.
>
>Greg


I live about 200 yards off of Big Tujunga Cyn.
 

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