Seven Cycles "Sounds Cheap"Touring Frame



P

(PeteCresswell)

Guest
Per bfd:
>Is this a titanium or steel frameset? If its ti, you can probably just take
>the stickers off with a hair blower.


The Seven I'm familiar with (Duo FS) has the badge screwed on and is unpainted.
--
PeteCresswell
 
B

bfd

Guest
R Brickston wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:29:47 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Per bfd:
> >>Is this a titanium or steel frameset? If its ti, you can probably just take
> >>the stickers off with a hair blower.

> >
> >The Seven I'm familiar with (Duo FS) has the badge screwed on and is unpainted.

>
> Here's the color scheme:
>
> http://sevencycles.com/bikes/paintdecal.html


Dude,
Sounds like your sold on Seven. I say get it and don't worry about the
stickers. After all, its only a bike and 99% of the population couldn't
tell it from a Huffy. Get it, ride it and ENJOY IT!!!!
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 29 Aug 2006 08:45:04 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Freq. contributor Mark Hickey's Ti frames:
>>http://www.habcycles.com/road.html Well spoken of; note the
>>"owner-maintainable finish".
>>
>>As noted, Ti might be easier to "stealth" than steel. I have an old Ti
>>Litespeed, de-decaled; that matte gray is stealthy, for sure. Heard my
>>first complaint just the other day <g>. --D-y

>
>I'm not sure Ti is going to work well for total 250-275 lbs of touring
>weight. I'm not sure you can get a Habanero in touring geometry.


Though I hate to contribute to any thread where Habanero is being
discussed, I'll chime in to say that while some ti frames would be
stressed at that weight, one designed for "overkill" is going to
handle that kind of weight with ease. I've got quite a few riders who
weigh more than your total loaded weight above, if that's any
indication. ;-)

In short, you can't compare a 3.X pound ti frame to a 3.X pound steel
frame in terms of its load capacity - they're really two very
different animals (with the distinct advantage going to the ti bike).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
B

bfd

Guest
"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards believing
> that it is.


That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a bunch of
MBAs....
 
M

Mike Jacoubowsky

Guest
> Though I hate to contribute to any thread where Habanero is being
> discussed, I'll chime in to say that while some ti frames would be
> stressed at that weight, one designed for "overkill" is going to
> handle that kind of weight with ease. I've got quite a few riders who
> weigh more than your total loaded weight above, if that's any
> indication. ;-)
>
> In short, you can't compare a 3.X pound ti frame to a 3.X pound steel
> frame in terms of its load capacity - they're really two very
> different animals (with the distinct advantage going to the ti bike).


Because basically one is being built at the edge of the material's limits
(the steel frame) while a Ti frame of the same weight (or carbon or
aluminum, for that matter) would have a large safety margin. It's not rocket
science.

Or maybe it is? :>)

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 29 Aug 2006 08:45:04 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>Freq. contributor Mark Hickey's Ti frames:
>>>http://www.habcycles.com/road.html Well spoken of; note the
>>>"owner-maintainable finish".
>>>
>>>As noted, Ti might be easier to "stealth" than steel. I have an old Ti
>>>Litespeed, de-decaled; that matte gray is stealthy, for sure. Heard my
>>>first complaint just the other day <g>. --D-y

>>
>>I'm not sure Ti is going to work well for total 250-275 lbs of touring
>>weight. I'm not sure you can get a Habanero in touring geometry.

>
> Though I hate to contribute to any thread where Habanero is being
> discussed, I'll chime in to say that while some ti frames would be
> stressed at that weight, one designed for "overkill" is going to
> handle that kind of weight with ease. I've got quite a few riders who
> weigh more than your total loaded weight above, if that's any
> indication. ;-)
>
> In short, you can't compare a 3.X pound ti frame to a 3.X pound steel
> frame in terms of its load capacity - they're really two very
> different animals (with the distinct advantage going to the ti bike).
>
> Mark Hickey
> Habanero Cycles
> http://www.habcycles.com
> Home of the $795 ti frame
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
>> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards believing
>> that it is.

>
>That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a bunch of
>MBAs....
>


Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one of
the largest high end frame makers in the US.
 
4

41

Guest
R Brickston wrote:
> I hear a fully loaded Seven Cycles bike with all the uber components
> can run $7-,0000 $9,000. My local LBS is a dealer and can order a
> custom touring geometry off my measurements and a fitting on mock-up.
>
> I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600. Seven
> won't ship it without their name/logo on it. Is this a decent buy or
> would it be like a Ralph Lauren Polo shirt; $5 for the shirt and $40
> extra for the embroidered horse/rider.


To put your question more simply: you want to know if $1600 is a good
price for a custom steel touring frame as made by Seven.

Answer: It is mid to mid-low range for a custom touring frame, but
rather overpriced for a TIG-welded version. Especially one with a
unicrown fork!!!

That is, I presume this is the bicycle:
<http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg>

I don't like it, for the following reasons:

1. The rear dropouts are ridiculous.
2. Unicrown fork??? On a $1600 custom frame? You must be joking.
3. The fork blades are straight, not curled. As Jobst has explained,
curled ones are better because you can determine crash damage and
alignment easily by inspection. They also look WAY better.
4. Are the chainstays perhaps a little shorter than they could be?
5. TIG welding and Aheadset, not my cup of tea. And TIG for $1600???
Planet Bike fenders? Where is the sense of taste man.

As for what you can get better: this is kind of a golden age for custom
touring frames and bicycles. The list of first-class builders and very
good builders who are less expensive is nearly endless. Finding the one
ideal for you is half the fun. If Seven turns out to be your favourite,
so be it. But don't think they have any magic formula for fit. Any good
custom builder should know how to get you a really good fit.

Where do you live? That would help a lot... otherwise, look through the
lists of custom builders on the S&S website
<http://www.sandsmachine.com>
the Henry James website, and the Velovision website. Then there are the
countless builders in the UK, Canada... Consider this random sample:

<http://www.sjscycles.com/thornwebsite/clubtour.html> -tell my why this
complete bicycle, at roughly US$1350 COMPLETE, is not every bit as good
as or better than the Seven above? -They are almost the same thing.

<http://www.sjscycles.com/thornwebsite/audaxclassic.html> -more my cup
of tea
<http://www.sjscycles.com/thornwebsite/models.html> -all their models
You can order frame alone for any of the above, in custom sizing.

<http://www.mariposabicycles.com>
<www.rivendellbicycles.com>
<http://www.bilenky.com/Site/Home.html>
<www.curtgoodrich.com>
<http://www.peter-mooney.com/>
<http://www.truenorthcycles.com/>
<http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_king_mercia.asp>
<http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/>
<http://www.rodcycle.com/>
<http://www.cwo.com/~lunarlab/>

The list goes on and on and on and on...
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]
> >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
> >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards
> >> believing that it is.

> >
> >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a
> >bunch of MBAs....

>
> Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
> interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one
> of the largest high end frame makers in the US.


Because of their marketing strategy, not their product. I see people
riding Sevens around here despite the fact that we have two of the best
steel frame builders in the country (Chris Kvale and Curt Goodrich) and
some other extremely good but less well known builders (Bob Brown, for
example). Although the Sevens are mostly Ti, many people still believe
a pound of titanium weighs less than a pound of steel.
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]
> > >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
> > >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards
> > >> believing that it is.
> > >
> > >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a
> > >bunch of MBAs....

> >
> > Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
> > interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one
> > of the largest high end frame makers in the US.

>
> Because of their marketing strategy, not their product. I see people
> riding Sevens around here despite the fact that we have two of the best
> steel frame builders in the country (Chris Kvale and Curt Goodrich) and
> some other extremely good but less well known builders (Bob Brown, for
> example).


How much does Chris Kvale charge for his lugged steel bikes? I rode
with a man riding a light blue one with hammered Honjo fenders on the
Rochester 600k. It looked sharp, sharp, sharp.




Although the Sevens are mostly Ti, many people still believe
> a pound of titanium weighs less than a pound of steel.
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:57:51 -0500, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]
>> >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
>> >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards
>> >> believing that it is.
>> >
>> >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a
>> >bunch of MBAs....

>>
>> Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
>> interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one
>> of the largest high end frame makers in the US.

>
>Because of their marketing strategy, not their product. I see people
>riding Sevens around here despite the fact that we have two of the best
>steel frame builders in the country (Chris Kvale and Curt Goodrich) and
>some other extremely good but less well known builders (Bob Brown, for
>example). Although the Sevens are mostly Ti, many people still believe
>a pound of titanium weighs less than a pound of steel.


Well, I've discovered that rbt can't really agree on any piece of
equipment. At least with component groups there are only a handful of
suppliers to argue about. I thought there were a few good custom frame
builders out there, but it seems to be in the dozens. I have three
Trek 520's so that gives me /some/ kind of reference point. I'll go to
the lbs and look at the Seven, take a test ride and see what the BFD
is, if any.
 
R Brickston wrote:
> Well, I've discovered that rbt can't really agree on any piece of
> equipment.


I think you've seen a lot of agreement in this thread.

> At least with component groups there are only a handful of
> suppliers to argue about.


I don't think you've seen much arguing (as in, espousing differences)
in this thread, either. No one seems much impressed with the steel
Seven's nuts-and-bolts value, which is where you started.

> I thought there were a few good custom frame
> builders out there, but it seems to be in the dozens.


Which might increase the odds of finding one nearby (another point of
agreement).

The same guy who measures you builds the frame, eliminating at least
one source of error.
You get to tap in directly to a knowledge base gained while providing
customer satisfaction (aka "staying in business").

Suffice to say, I know who I'd go to, well worth a few hours' drive.
--D-y
 
B

bfd

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > One benefit of the Seven is that the fitting process would be at the
> > local lbs. They take all your measurements and the style of bike you
> > want and send it off to Seven who then sends back their idea of the
> > geometry. That data is plugged into the fitting mock-up and the
> > numbers are adjusted, if neccessary for the best (for this process)
> > possible fit.

>
> What a nuisance. For one thing, your fit is dependent on the
> measurement skills of the LBS, which may or may not be good. For
> another, the fit is determined only by static measurements, but riding a
> bike is a dynamic process. Good fit takes into account your body
> proportions, your flexibility and strength, an understanding of what
> you're used to in terms of bikes and how your body has adapted to that,
> etc. With this process, you're going to get a long-distance fitting
> which will end up being generic to a degree. (Although some will say
> that's all ********, and they'd have a point. A bike is somewhat
> adjustable and a human being is somewhat adaptable, and a happy medium
> can usually be found as long as the bike is close. Almost everyone
> could be comfortably fit to a bike with 73/73 degree head and seat
> tubes, with the available adjustability of handlebars, stems, seatposts
> and saddles).
>

Actually, it isn't a nuisance. Obviously, the OP has bought into the
fit system that the MBAs have designed. If you look at Seven's fitting
process, it provides alot of info that looks good and makes the murky
fitting process believeable. Any LBS can do it and the buyer gets awed
into getting one.

> For $1650, a TIG welded steel frame is IMHO a mediocre at best value.
> TIG is the fastest, cheapest way to build a frame. For that kind of
> money for a steel frame, I'd be looking for nice fillet brazing (my
> personal favorite) or a nice lugs.
>

Agree. Does Seven even offer a fillet-brazed or lugged option?

> If I was going Ti, I'd get one from Mark Hickey and pay the custom
> upcharge for having one of his Habanero frames custom built.


At $1195 for custom, Habs are a bargain, especially if you're a big guy!
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 30 Aug 2006 10:19:18 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>> Well, I've discovered that rbt can't really agree on any piece of
>> equipment.

>
>I think you've seen a lot of agreement in this thread.


Yes, Seven Cycles product is apparently very overrated.

Note that not one advising poster wrote anything like: "I own a Seven"
or "I tested a Seven" or "I rode my friends Seven" or "I researched a
Seven, but instead bought..."

>
>> At least with component groups there are only a handful of
>> suppliers to argue about.

>
>I don't think you've seen much arguing (as in, espousing differences)
>in this thread, either. No one seems much impressed with the steel
>Seven's nuts-and-bolts value, which is where you started.
>


I'm not defending Seven Cycles, as a matter of fact, the only thing I
originally had to go on was 1. Their complete bikes range from $5,000
to $9,000 and the the web page, a/k/a "marketing hype."

>
>> I thought there were a few good custom frame
>> builders out there, but it seems to be in the dozens.

>
>Which might increase the odds of finding one nearby (another point of
>agreement).
>
>The same guy who measures you builds the frame, eliminating at least
>one source of error.


I'm not sure you understand the measuring process and they claim
13,000 succesful fittings. In any event, one premise is to have a tech
that is an expert fitter do that process and have the the frame
builder just do what he is good at. BTW, there are 100 data points
used in the measuring, according to the marketing department. To even
consider spending this kind of money, I've looked into what this
particular builder has to say. Some of it seems pretty comprehensive,
such as the fitting process:

http://sevencycles.com/order/CustomKit2006.pdf

Or there hype on frame building:

"Every Seven frame is subjected to no less than 50 alignment checks—28
in welding alone. Each is designed to guarantee the straightest, most
accurate frame possible. It’s no small effort to hold tolerances as
tight as +/- 0.002" for the most critical measurements. "

Most of the opinions given here on rbt don't seem to reflect any real
knowledge of this builder. "TIG welded frames are a ripoff," or "No,
look at this builder(s)," doesn't really inspire any confidence that
someone studied or has knowledge of this particular frame builder.

>You get to tap in directly to a knowledge base gained while providing
>customer satisfaction (aka "staying in business").
>
>Suffice to say, I know who I'd go to, well worth a few hours' drive.
>--D-y
 
B

bfd

Guest
R Brickston wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]
> >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
> >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards believing
> >> that it is.

> >
> >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a bunch of
> >MBAs....
> >

>
> Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
> interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one of
> the largest high end frame makers in the US.


You're right, the MBA's don't interfere, or at least you hope they
don't, with the quality of the product. They just make you think that
their product is *superior* to anyone else. How else do you think Seven
has become one fo the largest frame makers?

If you were truly interested in getting *value,* you would be looking
at something like Bruce Gordon's BLT. For about the price of a Seven's
frame, you can get an entire touring bike instead of just the frameset:

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html

If you wanted to spend more, check out the Rock n' Roll:

http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr.html

Further, in past year or so, Bruce's work has won six awards,
world-wide:

http://www.bgcycles.com/winner.html

What has Seven done recently?
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 30 Aug 2006 10:54:35 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]
>> >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
>> >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards believing
>> >> that it is.
>> >
>> >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a bunch of
>> >MBAs....
>> >

>>
>> Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
>> interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one of
>> the largest high end frame makers in the US.

>
>You're right, the MBA's don't interfere, or at least you hope they
>don't, with the quality of the product. They just make you think that
>their product is *superior* to anyone else. How else do you think Seven
>has become one fo the largest frame makers?
>
>If you were truly interested in getting *value,* you would be looking
>at something like Bruce Gordon's BLT. For about the price of a Seven's
>frame, you can get an entire touring bike instead of just the frameset:
>
>http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
>
>If you wanted to spend more, check out the Rock n' Roll:
>
>http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr.html
>
>Further, in past year or so, Bruce's work has won six awards,
>world-wide:
>
>http://www.bgcycles.com/winner.html
>
>What has Seven done recently?


I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
though.

His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:

http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html
 
B

bfd

Guest
R Brickston wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2006 10:54:35 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]
> >> >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
> >> >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards believing
> >> >> that it is.
> >> >
> >> >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a bunch of
> >> >MBAs....
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
> >> interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one of
> >> the largest high end frame makers in the US.

> >
> >You're right, the MBA's don't interfere, or at least you hope they
> >don't, with the quality of the product. They just make you think that
> >their product is *superior* to anyone else. How else do you think Seven
> >has become one fo the largest frame makers?
> >
> >If you were truly interested in getting *value,* you would be looking
> >at something like Bruce Gordon's BLT. For about the price of a Seven's
> >frame, you can get an entire touring bike instead of just the frameset:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
> >
> >If you wanted to spend more, check out the Rock n' Roll:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr.html
> >
> >Further, in past year or so, Bruce's work has won six awards,
> >world-wide:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/winner.html
> >
> >What has Seven done recently?

>
> I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
> though.
>
> His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
>
> http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html


First, what's retro? Here's the Seven touring bike:

http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg

It doesn't really look any more "modern" than Bruce's BLT:

http://www.bgcycles.com/images/rnrlg.jpg

or his BLT:

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom1.html

Unless you mean the stem? If so, I believe threadless stems are
available.

As for his fitting process, "less info" doesn't necessarily mean you're
getting a better or worse fit. Again, you're buying into what the MBAs
want you to believe.
 
B

bfd

Guest
R Brickston wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2006 10:54:35 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]
> >> >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
> >> >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards believing
> >> >> that it is.
> >> >
> >> >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a bunch of
> >> >MBAs....
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
> >> interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one of
> >> the largest high end frame makers in the US.

> >
> >You're right, the MBA's don't interfere, or at least you hope they
> >don't, with the quality of the product. They just make you think that
> >their product is *superior* to anyone else. How else do you think Seven
> >has become one fo the largest frame makers?
> >
> >If you were truly interested in getting *value,* you would be looking
> >at something like Bruce Gordon's BLT. For about the price of a Seven's
> >frame, you can get an entire touring bike instead of just the frameset:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
> >
> >If you wanted to spend more, check out the Rock n' Roll:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr.html
> >
> >Further, in past year or so, Bruce's work has won six awards,
> >world-wide:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/winner.html
> >
> >What has Seven done recently?

>
> I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
> though.
>
> His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
>
> http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html


First, what's retro? Here's the Seven touring bike:

http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg

It doesn't really look any more "modern" than Bruce's BLT:

http://www.bgcycles.com/images/rnrlg.jpg

or his BLT:

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom1.html

Unless you mean the stem? If so, I believe threadless stems are
available.

As for his fitting process, "less info" doesn't necessarily mean you're
getting a better or worse fit. Again, you're buying into what the MBAs
want you to believe.