Seven Cycles "Sounds Cheap"Touring Frame



R Brickston wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2006 10:54:35 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]
> >> >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
> >> >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards believing
> >> >> that it is.
> >> >
> >> >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a bunch of
> >> >MBAs....
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
> >> interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one of
> >> the largest high end frame makers in the US.

> >
> >You're right, the MBA's don't interfere, or at least you hope they
> >don't, with the quality of the product. They just make you think that
> >their product is *superior* to anyone else. How else do you think Seven
> >has become one fo the largest frame makers?
> >
> >If you were truly interested in getting *value,* you would be looking
> >at something like Bruce Gordon's BLT. For about the price of a Seven's
> >frame, you can get an entire touring bike instead of just the frameset:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
> >
> >If you wanted to spend more, check out the Rock n' Roll:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr.html
> >
> >Further, in past year or so, Bruce's work has won six awards,
> >world-wide:
> >
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/winner.html
> >
> >What has Seven done recently?

>
> I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
> though.
>
> His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
>
> http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html


I doubt there are many people on the planet that know more about
fitting a loaded touring bike than Bruce Gordon. His process seems
simple because he doesn't try to bamboozle you with pseudo-tech BS.
 
D

dvt

Guest
41 wrote:
> Planet Bike fenders? Where is the sense of taste man.


I know nothing about Sevens (I just saw a couple of these recently for
the first time). But I thought I'd defend these fenders...

I've had plenty of trouble cracking fenders in cold weather. The plastic
in some fenders seems to get brittle when it's cold out. My Planet Bike
fenders, on the other hand, have survived plenty of cold weather abuse
over the past few winters. In my book, they come highly recommended.

What don't you like about them?

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 30 Aug 2006 11:24:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>> On 30 Aug 2006 10:54:35 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >R Brickston wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:12:12 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"R Brickston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> >news:[email protected]
>> >> >>. It may not seem like a value (frameset only!), but
>> >> >> if you look at the Seven website, it makes you lean towards believing
>> >> >> that it is.
>> >> >
>> >> >That's called *MARKETING.* Remember, Seven is partially owned by a bunch of
>> >> >MBAs....
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Yeah, they gotta try and sell them somehow. I don't think the MBA's
>> >> interfere with the quality of the product. I think they are the one of
>> >> the largest high end frame makers in the US.
>> >
>> >You're right, the MBA's don't interfere, or at least you hope they
>> >don't, with the quality of the product. They just make you think that
>> >their product is *superior* to anyone else. How else do you think Seven
>> >has become one fo the largest frame makers?
>> >
>> >If you were truly interested in getting *value,* you would be looking
>> >at something like Bruce Gordon's BLT. For about the price of a Seven's
>> >frame, you can get an entire touring bike instead of just the frameset:
>> >
>> >http://www.bgcycles.com/blt.html
>> >
>> >If you wanted to spend more, check out the Rock n' Roll:
>> >
>> >http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr.html
>> >
>> >Further, in past year or so, Bruce's work has won six awards,
>> >world-wide:
>> >
>> >http://www.bgcycles.com/winner.html
>> >
>> >What has Seven done recently?

>>
>> I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
>> though.
>>
>> His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
>>
>> http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html

>
>I doubt there are many people on the planet that know more about
>fitting a loaded touring bike than Bruce Gordon. His process seems
>simple because he doesn't try to bamboozle you with pseudo-tech BS.


Finally, a salient point to consider.
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:28:48 -0400, dvt <[email protected]> wrote:

>41 wrote:
>> Planet Bike fenders? Where is the sense of taste man.

>
>I know nothing about Sevens (I just saw a couple of these recently for
>the first time). But I thought I'd defend these fenders...
>
>I've had plenty of trouble cracking fenders in cold weather. The plastic
>in some fenders seems to get brittle when it's cold out. My Planet Bike
>fenders, on the other hand, have survived plenty of cold weather abuse
>over the past few winters. In my book, they come highly recommended.
>
>What don't you like about them?


Near as I can tell they're not custom made by a single proprietor
shop.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >Obviously you want a Seven. So buy one.

>
> I'm envy you. I got hit in the head with a baseball as a kid and lost
> the ability to read minds.


The crystal ball came with my graduate degree. ;-) Nah, I was basing
that on your repeated defense of Seven and your apparent rejection of
other options. On this side of the keyboard, it looks pretty obvious
that you have settled on buying a Seven.
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:31:13 -0500, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >Obviously you want a Seven. So buy one.

>>
>> I'm envy you. I got hit in the head with a baseball as a kid and lost
>> the ability to read minds.

>
>The crystal ball came with my graduate degree. ;-) Nah, I was basing
>that on your repeated defense of Seven and your apparent rejection of
>other options. On this side of the keyboard, it looks pretty obvious
>that you have settled on buying a Seven.


Not at all. Also, accurate is that most, if not all responses, have
settled on my not buying a Seven. And what was there to defend
/against/? Not one poster gave any indication of having owned or
ridden a Seven product.
 
R Brickston wrote:

> Yes, Seven Cycles product is apparently very overrated.


I think the drift is "overpriced", at least compared to other frames,
in direct answer to your first question. The quality of materials and
manufacture I don't see being called into question.

> Note that not one advising poster wrote anything like: "I own a Seven"
> or "I tested a Seven" or "I rode my friends Seven" or "I researched a
> Seven, but instead bought..."


I know at least two people with custom Ti Sevens who really like them.
I haven't ridden one to compare it with my Litespeeds. On the the one
Seven I checked out real close, and on the one or two others I've
looked at, the welds had a certain cosmetic appeal that, like a Serotta
I scoped real close, is a step above my Litespeeds. Really pretty
welds, which as a former qualified (BFD) production MIG/TIG welder, I
admire. To my very limited knowledge, strictly cosmetic. FWIW, I've
seen an Airborne frame whose welding was comparable to the Litespeeds
I've looked at. I didn't scope the Davidson I recommended because the
woman who owns it was sitting on it. Next time, I'll ask <g>.

> I'm not sure you understand the measuring process and they claim
> 13,000 succesful fittings. In any event, one premise is to have a tech
> that is an expert fitter do that process and have the the frame
> builder just do what he is good at.


Fair enough, but I'll still take choice A; even though the actual
tubing length differences would be pretty small, I would think. Again,
the idea is to have some personal contact which an astute builder would
use to improve "fit" in perhaps a broad sense of the word (and I'm
adding a point or two here): morphology, age, riding habits, whatever.

> http://sevencycles.com/order/CustomKit2006.pdf


I'm not surprised that Seven goes after this info via questionnaire. I
glanced, it looks comprehensive. I'd still rather have the guy who's
going to build measure me and check me out in general. I bought someone
else's custom track frame several years ago, slightly used, and really
enjoyed talking to the builder who I "know" from racing (he was a good
one, too), getting the full scoop on materials and geometry. Very
enjoyable, and I'd guess some of the other posters are referring to
this sort of thing when they recommend the small builder over the big
one.

I'll give you all points on Seven customer satisfaction, even though I
have seen comments from someone who didn't think the King had any
clothes on. Unhappy customer, for sure. Can't win them all...

> Most of the opinions given here on rbt don't seem to reflect any real
> knowledge of this builder. "TIG welded frames are a ripoff,"


No, not "ripoff". Just cheaper to make, but priced high for type with
Seven. And posted to answer your original question IRT value. Please...
no one said anything negative about Seven, except relative to price,
and their come-on which I agree is a little heavy. Oh, and those
dropouts... I don't see any SEVENSUCKS websites, for instance.

>or "No,
> look at this builder(s)," doesn't really inspire any confidence that
> someone studied or has knowledge of this particular frame builder.


Done in light of price/value, and reputation of people like Tom Kellogg
who have excellent reputations. Every time, from what I saw. In
reference to your original concern.

Not anti-Seven, but encouraging you to look at lots of frames before
you take the leap. --D-y
 
R Brickston wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:31:13 -0500, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >
> >> >Obviously you want a Seven. So buy one.
> >>
> >> I'm envy you. I got hit in the head with a baseball as a kid and lost
> >> the ability to read minds.

> >
> >The crystal ball came with my graduate degree. ;-) Nah, I was basing
> >that on your repeated defense of Seven and your apparent rejection of
> >other options. On this side of the keyboard, it looks pretty obvious
> >that you have settled on buying a Seven.

>
> Not at all. Also, accurate is that most, if not all responses, have
> settled on my not buying a Seven. And what was there to defend
> /against/? Not one poster gave any indication of having owned or
> ridden a Seven product.


What I've seen in this thread is the suggestion that $1600 for a TIG
welded steel frame with a unicrown fork is a little, ahem, expensive.
And it is.

There's alot of impressive prose and techno-babble on the Seven site.
Some of it seems a bit silly (50 alignment checks? Alignment to
..02"/.05mm? Even if true, it's pointless....). And some of it is
needlessly complex, like the fit page.

IMO, you can get a similar frame for far less (e.g., Gunnar) or more
frame for your money (e.g., a lugged and brazed steel custom frame from
any number of skilled frame crafters. You get custom sizing and
geometry, the lugs of your choice, custom paint, and, perhaps, fewer
logos. A true piece of craftsmanship that was made to your spec and
will last a lifetime). And do consider the option of a custom Habenero
Ti frame, as mentioned by others.
 
J

Jay Beattie

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> R Brickston wrote:
> > On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:31:13 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >In article <[email protected]>,
> > > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > >> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> ><snip>
> > >> >
> > >> >Obviously you want a Seven. So buy one.
> > >>
> > >> I'm envy you. I got hit in the head with a baseball as a kid and lost
> > >> the ability to read minds.
> > >
> > >The crystal ball came with my graduate degree. ;-) Nah, I was basing
> > >that on your repeated defense of Seven and your apparent rejection of
> > >other options. On this side of the keyboard, it looks pretty obvious
> > >that you have settled on buying a Seven.

> >
> > Not at all. Also, accurate is that most, if not all responses, have
> > settled on my not buying a Seven. And what was there to defend
> > /against/? Not one poster gave any indication of having owned or
> > ridden a Seven product.

>
> What I've seen in this thread is the suggestion that $1600 for a TIG
> welded steel frame with a unicrown fork is a little, ahem, expensive.
> And it is.
>
> There's alot of impressive prose and techno-babble on the Seven site.
> Some of it seems a bit silly (50 alignment checks? Alignment to
> .02"/.05mm? Even if true, it's pointless....). And some of it is
> needlessly complex, like the fit page.


Look at the "flow chart" for ordering and the sizing
questionnaire/order form. There is probably less paper work involved
with adopting a child from China. I am surprised that the sizing chart
does not ask whether a guy "dresses" right or left. -- Jay Beattie.
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 30 Aug 2006 14:43:02 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>
>> Yes, Seven Cycles product is apparently very overrated.

>
>I think the drift is "overpriced", at least compared to other frames,
>in direct answer to your first question. The quality of materials and
>manufacture I don't see being called into question.
>
>> Note that not one advising poster wrote anything like: "I own a Seven"
>> or "I tested a Seven" or "I rode my friends Seven" or "I researched a
>> Seven, but instead bought..."

>
>I know at least two people with custom Ti Sevens who really like them.
>I haven't ridden one to compare it with my Litespeeds. On the the one
>Seven I checked out real close, and on the one or two others I've
>looked at, the welds had a certain cosmetic appeal that, like a Serotta
>I scoped real close, is a step above my Litespeeds. Really pretty
>welds, which as a former qualified (BFD) production MIG/TIG welder, I
>admire. To my very limited knowledge, strictly cosmetic. FWIW, I've
>seen an Airborne frame whose welding was comparable to the Litespeeds
>I've looked at. I didn't scope the Davidson I recommended because the
>woman who owns it was sitting on it. Next time, I'll ask <g>.
>
> > I'm not sure you understand the measuring process and they claim
>> 13,000 succesful fittings. In any event, one premise is to have a tech
>> that is an expert fitter do that process and have the the frame
>> builder just do what he is good at.

>
>Fair enough, but I'll still take choice A; even though the actual
>tubing length differences would be pretty small, I would think. Again,
>the idea is to have some personal contact which an astute builder would
>use to improve "fit" in perhaps a broad sense of the word (and I'm
>adding a point or two here): morphology, age, riding habits, whatever.
>
>> http://sevencycles.com/order/CustomKit2006.pdf

>
>I'm not surprised that Seven goes after this info via questionnaire. I
>glanced, it looks comprehensive. I'd still rather have the guy who's
>going to build measure me and check me out in general. I bought someone
>else's custom track frame several years ago, slightly used, and really
>enjoyed talking to the builder who I "know" from racing (he was a good
>one, too), getting the full scoop on materials and geometry. Very
>enjoyable, and I'd guess some of the other posters are referring to
>this sort of thing when they recommend the small builder over the big
>one.
>
>I'll give you all points on Seven customer satisfaction, even though I
>have seen comments from someone who didn't think the King had any
>clothes on. Unhappy customer, for sure. Can't win them all...
>
>> Most of the opinions given here on rbt don't seem to reflect any real
>> knowledge of this builder. "TIG welded frames are a ripoff,"

>
>No, not "ripoff". Just cheaper to make, but priced high for type with
>Seven. And posted to answer your original question IRT value. Please...
>no one said anything negative about Seven, except relative to price,
>and their come-on which I agree is a little heavy. Oh, and those
>dropouts... I don't see any SEVENSUCKS websites, for instance.


What is up with the dropouts? Fugly?

>
>>or "No,
>> look at this builder(s)," doesn't really inspire any confidence that
>> someone studied or has knowledge of this particular frame builder.

>
>Done in light of price/value, and reputation of people like Tom Kellogg
>who have excellent reputations. Every time, from what I saw. In
>reference to your original concern.


Just to clarify, "this particular frame builder," meaning Seven
Cycles.
>
>Not anti-Seven, but encouraging you to look at lots of frames before
>you take the leap. --D-y


I've seen the light on the choices from many other builders out there,
and the Seven frameset is not cheap, with having come from assembling
a few of my own, beater on up, for uber cheap. Believe me, I
appreciate the amount of feedback this query has recieved. Even though
seemingly some are "anti-7," excellent points have been made.
Obviously, I'm an argumentative *****, but the feedback is appreciated
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 30 Aug 2006 15:04:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:31:13 -0500, Tim McNamara
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
>> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> ><snip>
>> >> >
>> >> >Obviously you want a Seven. So buy one.
>> >>
>> >> I'm envy you. I got hit in the head with a baseball as a kid and lost
>> >> the ability to read minds.
>> >
>> >The crystal ball came with my graduate degree. ;-) Nah, I was basing
>> >that on your repeated defense of Seven and your apparent rejection of
>> >other options. On this side of the keyboard, it looks pretty obvious
>> >that you have settled on buying a Seven.

>>
>> Not at all. Also, accurate is that most, if not all responses, have
>> settled on my not buying a Seven. And what was there to defend
>> /against/? Not one poster gave any indication of having owned or
>> ridden a Seven product.

>
>What I've seen in this thread is the suggestion that $1600 for a TIG
>welded steel frame with a unicrown fork is a little, ahem, expensive.
>And it is.
>
>There's alot of impressive prose and techno-babble on the Seven site.
>Some of it seems a bit silly (50 alignment checks? Alignment to
>.02"/.05mm? Even if true, it's pointless....). And some of it is
>needlessly complex, like the fit page.
>
>IMO, you can get a similar frame for far less (e.g., Gunnar) or more
>frame for your money (e.g., a lugged and brazed steel custom frame from
>any number of skilled frame crafters. You get custom sizing and
>geometry, the lugs of your choice, custom paint, and, perhaps, fewer
>logos. A true piece of craftsmanship that was made to your spec and
>will last a lifetime). And do consider the option of a custom Habenero
>Ti frame, as mentioned by others.


What is the benefit of the lugged frame vs. the TIG welded frame?
 
R Brickston wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2006 15:04:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:31:13 -0500, Tim McNamara
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >> >> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> ><snip>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Obviously you want a Seven. So buy one.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm envy you. I got hit in the head with a baseball as a kid and lost
> >> >> the ability to read minds.
> >> >
> >> >The crystal ball came with my graduate degree. ;-) Nah, I was basing
> >> >that on your repeated defense of Seven and your apparent rejection of
> >> >other options. On this side of the keyboard, it looks pretty obvious
> >> >that you have settled on buying a Seven.
> >>
> >> Not at all. Also, accurate is that most, if not all responses, have
> >> settled on my not buying a Seven. And what was there to defend
> >> /against/? Not one poster gave any indication of having owned or
> >> ridden a Seven product.

> >
> >What I've seen in this thread is the suggestion that $1600 for a TIG
> >welded steel frame with a unicrown fork is a little, ahem, expensive.
> >And it is.
> >
> >There's alot of impressive prose and techno-babble on the Seven site.
> >Some of it seems a bit silly (50 alignment checks? Alignment to
> >.02"/.05mm? Even if true, it's pointless....). And some of it is
> >needlessly complex, like the fit page.
> >
> >IMO, you can get a similar frame for far less (e.g., Gunnar) or more
> >frame for your money (e.g., a lugged and brazed steel custom frame from
> >any number of skilled frame crafters. You get custom sizing and
> >geometry, the lugs of your choice, custom paint, and, perhaps, fewer
> >logos. A true piece of craftsmanship that was made to your spec and
> >will last a lifetime). And do consider the option of a custom Habenero
> >Ti frame, as mentioned by others.

>
> What is the benefit of the lugged frame vs. the TIG welded frame?


Advantages of lugged construction:

*greater strength at the joints
*better repairability
*aesthetics/appearance (more artful, less industrial)

Advantages of TIG welded construction:

*lower cost of manufacture (which ought to be reflected in the price of
the frame)
*marginal weight savings (hardly an issue in a touring frame).

IMO, YMMV, etc., etc., etc.
 
Jay Beattie wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > R Brickston wrote:
> > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:31:13 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
> > > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > > >> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> ><snip>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Obviously you want a Seven. So buy one.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm envy you. I got hit in the head with a baseball as a kid and lost
> > > >> the ability to read minds.
> > > >
> > > >The crystal ball came with my graduate degree. ;-) Nah, I was basing
> > > >that on your repeated defense of Seven and your apparent rejection of
> > > >other options. On this side of the keyboard, it looks pretty obvious
> > > >that you have settled on buying a Seven.
> > >
> > > Not at all. Also, accurate is that most, if not all responses, have
> > > settled on my not buying a Seven. And what was there to defend
> > > /against/? Not one poster gave any indication of having owned or
> > > ridden a Seven product.

> >
> > What I've seen in this thread is the suggestion that $1600 for a TIG
> > welded steel frame with a unicrown fork is a little, ahem, expensive.
> > And it is.
> >
> > There's alot of impressive prose and techno-babble on the Seven site.
> > Some of it seems a bit silly (50 alignment checks? Alignment to
> > .02"/0.5mm? Even if true, it's pointless....). And some of it is
> > needlessly complex, like the fit page.

>
> Look at the "flow chart" for ordering and the sizing
> questionnaire/order form. There is probably less paper work involved
> with adopting a child from China. I am surprised that the sizing chart
> does not ask whether a guy "dresses" right or left. -- Jay Beattie.


LOL!! That might be a question in the new, updated version, as it
affects lateral weight distribution. ;-)
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:50:23 GMT, R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 30 Aug 2006 15:04:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>>R Brickston wrote:
>>> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:31:13 -0500, Tim McNamara
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>>> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:55:00 -0500, Tim McNamara
>>> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >In article <[email protected]>,
>>> >> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> ><snip>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Obviously you want a Seven. So buy one.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm envy you. I got hit in the head with a baseball as a kid and lost
>>> >> the ability to read minds.
>>> >
>>> >The crystal ball came with my graduate degree. ;-) Nah, I was basing
>>> >that on your repeated defense of Seven and your apparent rejection of
>>> >other options. On this side of the keyboard, it looks pretty obvious
>>> >that you have settled on buying a Seven.
>>>
>>> Not at all. Also, accurate is that most, if not all responses, have
>>> settled on my not buying a Seven. And what was there to defend
>>> /against/? Not one poster gave any indication of having owned or
>>> ridden a Seven product.

>>
>>What I've seen in this thread is the suggestion that $1600 for a TIG
>>welded steel frame with a unicrown fork is a little, ahem, expensive.
>>And it is.
>>
>>There's alot of impressive prose and techno-babble on the Seven site.
>>Some of it seems a bit silly (50 alignment checks? Alignment to
>>.02"/.05mm? Even if true, it's pointless....). And some of it is
>>needlessly complex, like the fit page.
>>
>>IMO, you can get a similar frame for far less (e.g., Gunnar) or more
>>frame for your money (e.g., a lugged and brazed steel custom frame from
>>any number of skilled frame crafters. You get custom sizing and
>>geometry, the lugs of your choice, custom paint, and, perhaps, fewer
>>logos. A true piece of craftsmanship that was made to your spec and
>>will last a lifetime). And do consider the option of a custom Habenero
>>Ti frame, as mentioned by others.

>
>What is the benefit of the lugged frame vs. the TIG welded frame?


http://www.llewellynbikes.com/thegallery/index.php

http://www.richardsachs.com/2006_frame_gallery/index.html

http://www.bgcycles.com/luggedframes.html

TIG is functional and reflects its own craft, but ya gotta admit it can't have
the style of the nicer lugged frames. Or at least not for some of us.

Ron
 
R Brickston wrote:

> What is up with the dropouts? Fugly?


All in the eye of the fugholder. Sore thumb IMHO, wasted expense on a
basic frame.

> Obviously, I'm an argumentative *****, but the feedback is appreciated.


We just want you to be happy!

Group hug. --D-y
 
B

bfd

Guest
bfd wrote:
> R Brickston wrote:
> > I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
> > though.
> >
> > His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
> >
> > http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html

>
> First, what's retro? Here's the Seven touring bike:
>
> http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
>
> It doesn't really look any more "modern" than Bruce's BLT:
>
> http://www.bgcycles.com/images/rnrlg.jpg
>
> or his BLT:
>
> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom1.html
>
> Unless you mean the stem? If so, I believe threadless stems are
> available.
>

After looking at the Seven again, one thing that really cracks me up is
that RB thinks Bruce Gordon's bikes look "retro." However, he wants
the Seven for tourng. Yet, take a good look at the Seven Touring bike:

http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg

Notice the placement of the rear rack on the Seven. How can anybody
seriously consider te Seven biketo be a *true* touring bike when the
rack is so high? Are you really going to "tour" with a rack that
mounted up so high. How stable is that bike?

When compared to the Seven, Bruce Gordon's bikes maybe retro, but I bet
his bikes are waaaay more stable when loaded down.
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 30 Aug 2006 23:09:11 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>bfd wrote:
>> R Brickston wrote:
>> > I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
>> > though.
>> >
>> > His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
>> >
>> > http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html

>>
>> First, what's retro? Here's the Seven touring bike:
>>
>> http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
>>
>> It doesn't really look any more "modern" than Bruce's BLT:
>>
>> http://www.bgcycles.com/images/rnrlg.jpg
>>
>> or his BLT:
>>
>> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom1.html
>>
>> Unless you mean the stem? If so, I believe threadless stems are
>> available.
>>

>After looking at the Seven again, one thing that really cracks me up is
>that RB thinks Bruce Gordon's bikes look "retro." However, he wants
>the Seven for tourng. Yet, take a good look at the Seven Touring bike:
>
>http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
>
>Notice the placement of the rear rack on the Seven. How can anybody
>seriously consider te Seven biketo be a *true* touring bike when the
>rack is so high? Are you really going to "tour" with a rack that
>mounted up so high. How stable is that bike?
>
>When compared to the Seven, Bruce Gordon's bikes maybe retro, but I bet
>his bikes are waaaay more stable when loaded down.


Who said anything about a Vacanza? Axiom Steel is the one I was
considering. Besides extending the wheelbase, if you look at the page
below you will see that rack mounts, third water bottle mount and
fender mounts are no cost additions and I'm sure you can have them
installed to use the de facto standard Blackburn rack.

http://sevencycles.com/bikes/featuresoptionsroad.html
 
P

Pat Lamb

Guest
bfd wrote:
>>

> After looking at the Seven again, one thing that really cracks me up is
> that RB thinks Bruce Gordon's bikes look "retro." However, he wants
> the Seven for tourng. Yet, take a good look at the Seven Touring bike:
>
> http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
>
> Notice the placement of the rear rack on the Seven. How can anybody
> seriously consider te Seven biketo be a *true* touring bike when the
> rack is so high? Are you really going to "tour" with a rack that
> mounted up so high. How stable is that bike?


Good point. I wonder why they stick them so far up? Is that an attempt
to maximize heel clearance??

Pat
 
B

bfd

Guest
R Brickston wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2006 23:09:11 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >bfd wrote:
> >> R Brickston wrote:
> >> > I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
> >> > though.
> >> >
> >> > His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html
> >>
> >> First, what's retro? Here's the Seven touring bike:
> >>
> >> http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
> >>
> >> It doesn't really look any more "modern" than Bruce's BLT:
> >>
> >> http://www.bgcycles.com/images/rnrlg.jpg
> >>
> >> or his BLT:
> >>
> >> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom1.html
> >>
> >> Unless you mean the stem? If so, I believe threadless stems are
> >> available.
> >>

> >After looking at the Seven again, one thing that really cracks me up is
> >that RB thinks Bruce Gordon's bikes look "retro." However, he wants
> >the Seven for tourng. Yet, take a good look at the Seven Touring bike:
> >
> >http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
> >
> >Notice the placement of the rear rack on the Seven. How can anybody
> >seriously consider te Seven biketo be a *true* touring bike when the
> >rack is so high? Are you really going to "tour" with a rack that
> >mounted up so high. How stable is that bike?
> >
> >When compared to the Seven, Bruce Gordon's bikes maybe retro, but I bet
> >his bikes are waaaay more stable when loaded down.

>
> Who said anything about a Vacanza? Axiom Steel is the one I was
> considering. Besides extending the wheelbase, if you look at the page
> below you will see that rack mounts, third water bottle mount and
> fender mounts are no cost additions and I'm sure you can have them
> installed to use the de facto standard Blackburn rack.
>
> http://sevencycles.com/bikes/featuresoptionsroad.html


OK, you weren't clear. All you stated was you wanted a Seven TOURING
bike. Looking at the website, I saw what was their only "touring" bike.


But, now your specific an Axiom Steel. That's NOT a touring bike. Yes,
you can add things, but it still doesn't make it a *touring* bike. IF
you're really planning on touring, why choose a road bike? Wouldn't it
make more sense to buy the bike that Seven specifically designed for
touring?

Further, if you're going to really do actually "touring," carrying real
loads, you may want to consider getting things like longer chainstays
and lower bottom bracket drops; that's is get things that will provide
a more stable ride. However, if this bike is for show, then a Seven
Axiom Steel is the correct pick!