Seven Cycles "Sounds Cheap"Touring Frame



R Brickston wrote:
> On 30 Aug 2006 23:09:11 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >bfd wrote:
> >> R Brickston wrote:
> >> > I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
> >> > though.
> >> >
> >> > His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html
> >>
> >> First, what's retro? Here's the Seven touring bike:
> >>
> >> http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
> >>
> >> It doesn't really look any more "modern" than Bruce's BLT:
> >>
> >> http://www.bgcycles.com/images/rnrlg.jpg
> >>
> >> or his BLT:
> >>
> >> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom1.html
> >>
> >> Unless you mean the stem? If so, I believe threadless stems are
> >> available.
> >>

> >After looking at the Seven again, one thing that really cracks me up is
> >that RB thinks Bruce Gordon's bikes look "retro." However, he wants
> >the Seven for tourng. Yet, take a good look at the Seven Touring bike:
> >
> >http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
> >
> >Notice the placement of the rear rack on the Seven. How can anybody
> >seriously consider te Seven biketo be a *true* touring bike when the
> >rack is so high? Are you really going to "tour" with a rack that
> >mounted up so high. How stable is that bike?
> >
> >When compared to the Seven, Bruce Gordon's bikes maybe retro, but I bet
> >his bikes are waaaay more stable when loaded down.

>
> Who said anything about a Vacanza?


In your earlier posts, you mentioned a steel Seven with "touring
geometry". If you click on "Touring" on the Seven site, the only steel
frame is the Vacanza Steel.


> Axiom Steel is the one I was
> considering. Besides extending the wheelbase, if you look at the page
> below you will see that rack mounts, third water bottle mount and
> fender mounts are no cost additions and I'm sure you can have them
> installed to use the de facto standard Blackburn rack.
>
> http://sevencycles.com/bikes/featuresoptionsroad.html
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 31 Aug 2006 07:46:45 -0700, [email protected]leservice.com wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>> On 30 Aug 2006 23:09:11 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >bfd wrote:
>> >> R Brickston wrote:
>> >> > I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
>> >> > though.
>> >> >
>> >> > His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html
>> >>
>> >> First, what's retro? Here's the Seven touring bike:
>> >>
>> >> http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
>> >>
>> >> It doesn't really look any more "modern" than Bruce's BLT:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.bgcycles.com/images/rnrlg.jpg
>> >>
>> >> or his BLT:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom1.html
>> >>
>> >> Unless you mean the stem? If so, I believe threadless stems are
>> >> available.
>> >>
>> >After looking at the Seven again, one thing that really cracks me up is
>> >that RB thinks Bruce Gordon's bikes look "retro." However, he wants
>> >the Seven for tourng. Yet, take a good look at the Seven Touring bike:
>> >
>> >http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
>> >
>> >Notice the placement of the rear rack on the Seven. How can anybody
>> >seriously consider te Seven biketo be a *true* touring bike when the
>> >rack is so high? Are you really going to "tour" with a rack that
>> >mounted up so high. How stable is that bike?
>> >
>> >When compared to the Seven, Bruce Gordon's bikes maybe retro, but I bet
>> >his bikes are waaaay more stable when loaded down.

>>
>> Who said anything about a Vacanza?

>
>In your earlier posts, you mentioned a steel Seven with "touring
>geometry". If you click on "Touring" on the Seven site, the only steel
>frame is the Vacanza Steel.


Not exactly. What I wrote in my original post was:

------------
"My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...

"I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."
------------

The LBS didn't have the Vacanza listed, only road bike frames ranging
from $1,595 to $4,670. The cheapest frameset was the Axiom Steel for
the $1,595. Here's the LBS web blurb:

-------------
Seven Cycles
Axiom Steel Frame
$1,595.00

They say that steel is real, so dive into the vibe on Seven's Axiom.
You'll roll along in comfort and control thanks to the classic feel of
this modern creation. Painstaking care is used to craft Seven's Origin
butted-chromoly frame and every joint is a work of art. And, this
versatile frame does it all from racing to club rides to even light
touring. Plus, custom geometry is available at this great price!
--------------

I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
geometry for the $1,595.

The only Vacanza price on the Seven web site starts at $4,195 for a
complete bike. In fact, I can't find a frameset only pricing for any
Seven bike on their web site.

>> Axiom Steel is the one I was
>> considering. Besides extending the wheelbase, if you look at the page
>> below you will see that rack mounts, third water bottle mount and
>> fender mounts are no cost additions and I'm sure you can have them
>> installed to use the de facto standard Blackburn rack.
>>
>> http://sevencycles.com/bikes/featuresoptionsroad.html
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 31 Aug 2006 07:38:32 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>> On 30 Aug 2006 23:09:11 -0700, "bfd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >bfd wrote:
>> >> R Brickston wrote:
>> >> > I'm sure BG does great stuff, don't know wether I want the retro look
>> >> > though.
>> >> >
>> >> > His fitting process seems to require less info than one would expect:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.bgcycles.com/framesiz.html
>> >>
>> >> First, what's retro? Here's the Seven touring bike:
>> >>
>> >> http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
>> >>
>> >> It doesn't really look any more "modern" than Bruce's BLT:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.bgcycles.com/images/rnrlg.jpg
>> >>
>> >> or his BLT:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom1.html
>> >>
>> >> Unless you mean the stem? If so, I believe threadless stems are
>> >> available.
>> >>
>> >After looking at the Seven again, one thing that really cracks me up is
>> >that RB thinks Bruce Gordon's bikes look "retro." However, he wants
>> >the Seven for tourng. Yet, take a good look at the Seven Touring bike:
>> >
>> >http://sevencycles.com/lib/img/products/bikes/vacanzaL.jpg
>> >
>> >Notice the placement of the rear rack on the Seven. How can anybody
>> >seriously consider te Seven biketo be a *true* touring bike when the
>> >rack is so high? Are you really going to "tour" with a rack that
>> >mounted up so high. How stable is that bike?
>> >
>> >When compared to the Seven, Bruce Gordon's bikes maybe retro, but I bet
>> >his bikes are waaaay more stable when loaded down.

>>
>> Who said anything about a Vacanza? Axiom Steel is the one I was
>> considering. Besides extending the wheelbase, if you look at the page
>> below you will see that rack mounts, third water bottle mount and
>> fender mounts are no cost additions and I'm sure you can have them
>> installed to use the de facto standard Blackburn rack.
>>
>> http://sevencycles.com/bikes/featuresoptionsroad.html

>
>OK, you weren't clear. All you stated was you wanted a Seven TOURING
>bike. Looking at the website, I saw what was their only "touring" bike.
>
>
>But, now your specific an Axiom Steel. That's NOT a touring bike. Yes,
>you can add things, but it still doesn't make it a *touring* bike. IF
>you're really planning on touring, why choose a road bike? Wouldn't it
>make more sense to buy the bike that Seven specifically designed for
>touring?


What part of, "Besides extending the wheelbase," don't you understand?

>
>Further, if you're going to really do actually "touring," carrying real
>loads, you may want to consider getting things like longer chainstays
>and lower bottom bracket drops; that's is get things that will provide
>a more stable ride. However, if this bike is for show, then a Seven
>Axiom Steel is the correct pick!


If you had read the specs you would see that the Axiom is already
touted for "light touring." According to the LBS, they will build it
on request in a true touring geometry for the same price and throw in
the rack, 3rd bottle and fender mounts. I've have three 520's (2
lugged and 1 tigged, btw) and am familiar with touring, both credit
card and tent dragging, although I haven't done too much of the latter
recently.
 
M

Matt

Guest
R Brickston wrote:
> ------------
> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
>
> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."


>
> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
> geometry for the $1,595.
>


R.,
Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
at pretty much the same price.

Just a thought.
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>R Brickston wrote:
>> ------------
>> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
>>
>> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."

>
>>
>> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
>> geometry for the $1,595.
>>

>
>R.,
>Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
>the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
>at pretty much the same price.
>
>Just a thought.


Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.
 
R Brickston wrote:
> On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> ------------
> >> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
> >>
> >> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."

> >
> >>
> >> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
> >> geometry for the $1,595.
> >>

> >
> >R.,
> >Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
> >the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
> >at pretty much the same price.
> >
> >Just a thought.

>
> Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.


Yeah, that way you get to use an ugly, hard-to-adjust stem.
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 31 Aug 2006 15:43:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>> On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >R Brickston wrote:
>> >> ------------
>> >> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
>> >>
>> >> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
>> >> geometry for the $1,595.
>> >>
>> >
>> >R.,
>> >Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
>> >the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
>> >at pretty much the same price.
>> >
>> >Just a thought.

>>
>> Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.

>
>Yeah, that way you get to use an ugly, hard-to-adjust stem.


Beauty is subjective. If the thing is fitted properly in the first
place, adjusting should be a rare event. And, in your mind, what is so
difficult about loosening a stem, lifting off and restacking some
spacers? Does that sound like a half-hour job to you? Or do I have to
drop it off at the tech for two weeks while he calls in a specialist?
 
R Brickston wrote:
> On 31 Aug 2006 15:43:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> >> ------------
> >> >> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
> >> >>
> >> >> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
> >> >> geometry for the $1,595.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >R.,
> >> >Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
> >> >the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
> >> >at pretty much the same price.
> >> >
> >> >Just a thought.
> >>
> >> Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.

> >
> >Yeah, that way you get to use an ugly, hard-to-adjust stem.

>
> Beauty is subjective. If the thing is fitted properly in the first
> place, adjusting should be a rare event. And, in your mind, what is so
> difficult about loosening a stem, lifting off and restacking some
> spacers? Does that sound like a half-hour job to you? Or do I have to
> drop it off at the tech for two weeks while he calls in a specialist?


However needlessly complex the fitting ritual may be, chances are very
good that you will want to fine tune the handlebar height when you
actually ride the bike for the first time.. With a quill stem, it's a
few turns (lefty-loosey/righty-tighty) of a hex key. With threadless,
it's much more complex, including re-adjusting the headset.

Also, in the case of my touring bike, I find I like to re-adjust the
bar height depending on how the bike is being used. With a quill stem,
that takes about 30 seconds. It's much more cumbersome with a
threadless stem. So cumbersome that I likely wouldn't bother.

Just like tig-welded frames and cartridge bottom brackets, threadless
headsets and stems are intended to streamline the bicycle manufacturing
process. They are of dubious benefit, at best, to the rider.
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 31 Aug 2006 18:15:01 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>R Brickston wrote:
>> On 31 Aug 2006 15:43:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >R Brickston wrote:
>> >> On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >R Brickston wrote:
>> >> >> ------------
>> >> >> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
>> >> >> geometry for the $1,595.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >R.,
>> >> >Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
>> >> >the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
>> >> >at pretty much the same price.
>> >> >
>> >> >Just a thought.
>> >>
>> >> Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.
>> >
>> >Yeah, that way you get to use an ugly, hard-to-adjust stem.

>>
>> Beauty is subjective. If the thing is fitted properly in the first
>> place, adjusting should be a rare event. And, in your mind, what is so
>> difficult about loosening a stem, lifting off and restacking some
>> spacers? Does that sound like a half-hour job to you? Or do I have to
>> drop it off at the tech for two weeks while he calls in a specialist?

>
>However needlessly complex the fitting ritual may be, chances are very
>good that you will want to fine tune the handlebar height when you
>actually ride the bike for the first time.. With a quill stem, it's a
>few turns (lefty-loosey/righty-tighty) of a hex key. With threadless,
>it's much more complex, including re-adjusting the headset.


I've got to with the quill. In my view the threadless adjustment is
just not that big a deal, but that's just me. In fact, I rarely
adjusted the quills in either of those bikes.
>
>Also, in the case of my touring bike, I find I like to re-adjust the
>bar height depending on how the bike is being used. With a quill stem,
>that takes about 30 seconds. It's much more cumbersome with a
>threadless stem. So cumbersome that I likely wouldn't bother.


It can't be anymore of a PIA then adjusting the brakes.

>Just like tig-welded frames and cartridge bottom brackets, threadless
>headsets and stems are intended to streamline the bicycle manufacturing
>process. They are of dubious benefit, at best, to the rider.


I understand your psychology, perhaps. You are an old world, handmade,
detail to craftsmanship, kind of bike person. I can also see why you
would lean towards that kind of frame builder. Not a bad thing,
naturally.

While the benefit maybe dubious, the more modern manufacturing methods
and ideas I think are mostly benign if not some improvement in some
areas. Shoot me at dawn, no blindfold and no cigarette, but
personally, I like the looks of the threadless headset and those fancy
lugs don't really do anything for me, at least visually.
 
M

Michael Press

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2006 15:43:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >R Brickston wrote:
> >> >> ------------
> >> >> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
> >> >>
> >> >> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
> >> >> geometry for the $1,595.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >R.,
> >> >Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
> >> >the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
> >> >at pretty much the same price.
> >> >
> >> >Just a thought.
> >>
> >> Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.

> >
> >Yeah, that way you get to use an ugly, hard-to-adjust stem.

>
> Beauty is subjective. If the thing is fitted properly in the first
> place, adjusting should be a rare event. And, in your mind, what is so
> difficult about loosening a stem, lifting off and restacking some
> spacers? Does that sound like a half-hour job to you? Or do I have to
> drop it off at the tech for two weeks while he calls in a specialist?


I have one bike with a quill stem, and must remember to
regularly remove and grease, lest it seize on me.

--
Michael Press
 
Yep, just like your seatpost. Routine maintainence......the horror!


Michael Press wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 31 Aug 2006 15:43:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >R Brickston wrote:
> > >> On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >R Brickston wrote:
> > >> >> ------------
> > >> >> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
> > >> >> geometry for the $1,595.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >R.,
> > >> >Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
> > >> >the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
> > >> >at pretty much the same price.
> > >> >
> > >> >Just a thought.
> > >>
> > >> Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.
> > >
> > >Yeah, that way you get to use an ugly, hard-to-adjust stem.

> >
> > Beauty is subjective. If the thing is fitted properly in the first
> > place, adjusting should be a rare event. And, in your mind, what is so
> > difficult about loosening a stem, lifting off and restacking some
> > spacers? Does that sound like a half-hour job to you? Or do I have to
> > drop it off at the tech for two weeks while he calls in a specialist?

>
> I have one bike with a quill stem, and must remember to
> regularly remove and grease, lest it seize on me.
>
> --
> Michael Press
 
M

Michael Press

Guest
In article
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Yep, just like your seatpost. Routine maintainence......the horror!
>
>
> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > On 31 Aug 2006 15:43:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >R Brickston wrote:
> > > >> On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt" <[email protected]>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >R Brickston wrote:
> > > >> >> ------------
> > > >> >> "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom touring geometry...
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600."
> > > >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with true touring
> > > >> >> geometry for the $1,595.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >R.,
> > > >> >Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds to me like
> > > >> >the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are looking for, and
> > > >> >at pretty much the same price.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Just a thought.
> > > >>
> > > >> Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.
> > > >
> > > >Yeah, that way you get to use an ugly, hard-to-adjust stem.
> > >
> > > Beauty is subjective. If the thing is fitted properly in the first
> > > place, adjusting should be a rare event. And, in your mind, what is so
> > > difficult about loosening a stem, lifting off and restacking some
> > > spacers? Does that sound like a half-hour job to you? Or do I have to
> > > drop it off at the tech for two weeks while he calls in a specialist?

> >
> > I have one bike with a quill stem, and must remember to
> > regularly remove and grease, lest it seize on me.


Bikes are fun, routine maintenance is a chore, I have
enough chores, so I don't do routine maintenance, I do
some work on the bike when it occurs to me, the
thread-less steerer tube makes for one less chore, like
replying to top-posters who spit venom when called on it,
and do it simply to provoke a response so they can spit
venom.

--
Michael Press
 
J

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> ...
> Just like tig-welded frames and cartridge bottom brackets, threadless
> headsets and stems are intended to streamline the bicycle manufacturing
> process. They are of dubious benefit, at best, to the rider.


If a TIG-welded frame is as light as or lighter than a lugged and
brazed frame, has similar durability, and costs less, then the
TIG-welding process is of benefit to the consumer who does not wish to
spend money on what has become a cosmetic feature.

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
 
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > ...
> > Just like tig-welded frames and cartridge bottom brackets, threadless
> > headsets and stems are intended to streamline the bicycle manufacturing
> > process. They are of dubious benefit, at best, to the rider.

>
> If a TIG-welded frame is as light as or lighter than a lugged and
> brazed frame, has similar durability, and costs less, then the
> TIG-welding process is of benefit to the consumer who does not wish to
> spend money on what has become a cosmetic feature.
>


The TIG welded steel frame which is the subject of this thread is not
particularly light (3lbs 14oz, according to the manufacturer) and is
priced at $1600. IMO, it should either be lighter, cheaper, or offer
better aesthetics. As it stands, what this piece has going for it is an
overly complex, wordy, overblown and over-hyped website.

IMO, YMMV, etc., etc., etc.
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Guest
Per [email protected]:
> With a quill stem, it's a
>few turns (lefty-loosey/righty-tighty) of a hex key. With threadless,
>it's much more complex, including re-adjusting the headset.


I'd say it's more complex - but not *much* more complex. Takes a few extra
seconds to pull the stem off and swap the spacers around, and then a few more
seconds to tighten up the star nut. After that, I'd call it a wash.

I would say, though, that adjusting a quill stem is essentially trivial while
adjusting a threadless is not.

But finally, whatever extra complexity there is in adjusting a threadless has to
be weighed against the occasional seizure in quill stems.
--
PeteCresswell
 
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per [email protected]:
> > With a quill stem, it's a
> >few turns (lefty-loosey/righty-tighty) of a hex key. With threadless,
> >it's much more complex, including re-adjusting the headset.

>
> I'd say it's more complex - but not *much* more complex. Takes a few extra
> seconds to pull the stem off and swap the spacers around, and then a few more
> seconds to tighten up the star nut. After that, I'd call it a wash.
>


It's a relative thing: by comparison to a quill stem, adjusting a
threadless is much more complex, IMO.


> I would say, though, that adjusting a quill stem is essentially trivial while
> adjusting a threadless is not.
>


Agreed.


> But finally, whatever extra complexity there is in adjusting a threadless has to
> be weighed against the occasional seizure in quill stems.


A seized quill stem is a symptom of a neglected bike.

And let's be clear: the impetus behind the threadless headset had
nothing to do with eliminating the somewhat rare problem of seized
stems and everything to do with streamlining the bicycle manufacturing
process.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Just like tig-welded frames and cartridge bottom brackets, threadless
> headsets and stems are intended to streamline the bicycle manufacturing
> process. They are of dubious benefit, at best, to the rider.


I finally got a bike with a threadless headset. It's a lot easier to
adjust than threaded. And no problem with an expander breaking through
threads (might be rare but it does happen). I don't care for the
somewhat knobby looks compared to quill style, but such is life.

Cartridge BB's, the same. Much easier to install, to the point that if
the overall cost/mile is higher, that's totally fine with me. Screw it
in, tighten and go. I've worked on the job with hand tools, there's
little joy in having to futz with bike parts. I just wanna save some
time/money cf. having the shop do it, and ride. Others enjoy? No
problem here.

If tig makes frames cheaper, that's a nice benefit right there. I like
the looks of lugs, own a couple of bikes with nice lug work, but I was
a production mig/tig welder, and there's some tig work out there I
think is mighty pretty. Very, very nicely done. AFAIC, the "value" (not
the marketing hype, or carbon add-on BS) with some of the high-buck Ti
frames. --D-y
 
R

R Brickston

Guest
On 1 Sep 2006 06:18:28 -0700, [email protected] wrote:


>And let's be clear: the impetus behind the threadless headset had
>nothing to do with eliminating the somewhat rare problem of seized
>stems and everything to do with streamlining the bicycle manufacturing
>process.


I'm swapping some handlebars around later today. Guess which system is
going to be a huge PIA and which one will consist of R&R of four
bolts.
 
J

jens5

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> R Brickston wrote:
> > I hear a fully loaded Seven Cycles bike with all the uber components
> > can run $7-,0000 $9,000. My local LBS is a dealer and can order a
> > custom touring geometry off my measurements and a fitting on mock-up


You can order a hand brazed, lugged Reynolds, 631,725 or 853 frame to
fit you in your choice of 60 custom, lacquered paint colors with
contrasting inserts and pinstriping, again with your choice of
braze-on's from Mercian in Derby, England for less than $1600. That
would include the shipping from England to the US!

Cheers, Richard
> >
> > I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is $1600. Seven
> > won't ship it without their name/logo on it. Is this a decent buy or
> > would it be like a Ralph Lauren Polo shirt; $5 for the shirt and $40
> > extra for the embroidered horse/rider.

>
> $1600 is about what most of the bigger name TIG welded custom steel
> frame makers charge in the US. Independent Fabrications is another.
> If the bike suits you and you get comfort from having the local shop
> measure you for the bike size, then go for it. If you are comfortable
> taking your own measurements, and know what size bike you ride, then
> you can buy a custom lugged or TIG steel frame/fork from England for
> half the price, delivered. Bob Jackson and Mercian and Dave Yates are
> a few names that come to mind.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> R Brickston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 31 Aug 2006 15:43:24 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >R Brickston wrote:
> > >> On 31 Aug 2006 11:45:32 -0700, "Matt"
> > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >R Brickston wrote:
> > >> >> ------------ "My local LBS is a dealer and can order a custom
> > >> >> touring geometry...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "I've got all the parts and the built to order frameset is
> > >> >> $1600."
> > >> >
> > >> >> I called and asked if the Axiom Steel could be built with
> > >> >> true touring geometry for the $1,595.
> > >> >
> > >> >R., Personally, and YMMV, $1600 seems reasonable. But it sounds
> > >> >to me like the Waterford RST-14 is already exactly what you are
> > >> >looking for, and at pretty much the same price.
> > >> >
> > >> >Just a thought.
> > >>
> > >> Nice bike and they'll do it threadless.
> > >
> > >Yeah, that way you get to use an ugly, hard-to-adjust stem.

> >
> > Beauty is subjective. If the thing is fitted properly in the first
> > place, adjusting should be a rare event. And, in your mind, what is
> > so difficult about loosening a stem, lifting off and restacking
> > some spacers? Does that sound like a half-hour job to you? Or do I
> > have to drop it off at the tech for two weeks while he calls in a
> > specialist?


You can't just stick 2 cm of spacers under the stem, unfortunately,
because of the design of threadless systems. Say you hurt your back and
have to raise the bars to keep riding- my experience this year as like
many people over 40 I am developing lumbar disk problems. You either
have to buy a new fugly stem or a new fork plus some spacers, unless you
were riding around with a few cm of steerer sticking up out of your stem
(there's a nice look). Or you can buy an adjustable angle stem with a
hinge and bolts to loosen up during a ride. I saw a bunch of those on
bikes at REI last week. On my quill stem bikes, one quick adjustment
with a 6 mm allen wrench to raise the bars and ease my back, and I was
on my way. Took about 60 seconds.

I know a lot of people like threadless stems because they are
lighter/stiffer/newer/the cool standard. Many see them as the superior
technology and have rational reasons for that. I think they suck. The
stems are generally ugly as hell. And I think that the headset preload
and the clamping of the fork should be separated rather than dependent
on the same couple of bolts.

I understand the mechanical arguments put forth by Jobst and others in
favor of threadless stems. I wouldn't have as much complaint about a
fork that uses a threaded headset and a stem that clamps to the steerer
tube. Interestingly enough, threadless type stems were all the rage in
France 50 years ago on high-end bikes and were abandoned as a less
suitable technology because of the lack of easy adjustability to fit the
rider.

> I have one bike with a quill stem, and must remember to regularly
> remove and grease, lest it seize on me.


I have seven bikes with quill stems and one bike with a threadless stem.
In 30+ years of being a bikie I've never had a quill stem seize into the
steerer. Every few years when I remove them to repack the headset they
just slide right on out. Waterproof marine grease is what I use on the
quill, on the slug, on the bolt threads, and it doesn't need to be
reapplied after the first assembly, unless I wipe it off.