SevenCycles "Duo" - URT?



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On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:30:58 GMT, "Rocketman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

[snip, yada, yada, yada]

>Buzzcocks

Now that's whatimtalkinboutwillis!

Peace, Bill ...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them all and
on the trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...
 
Jonesy wrote:

> A simple, well-made bike assembled with care can be just as, if not more, rewarding than an ultra-high-
> dollar bike if only for the simple reason that it gets ridden, rather than being expensive bike-
> shaped art. Geared or not, suspended or not, it doesn't matter. Because if you have ever ridden
> and had the bike disappear beneath you to become one with you - you'll know that the bike isn't
> really as important as the ride. I always believed it, but had just never experienced it until
> last year. Seven or Giant - it doesn't matter when it's all working.
> --
> Jonesy (Composed with the aid of some Bigfoot)

You keep writting like that and you're going to get dismissed from the group, making sense and all.
If you ride it and you like it, it should be a good bike from your POV. Maybe you don't like all its
characteristics, but it is good.

I have little problem with anyone spending all kinds of money for a bike, whether they ride it or
not. I do get bothered by the "I just bought this, what do you think" posts though, who cares what
I/we think, especially after the fact.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply)
 
"JD" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]...
> "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > > What's not challenging about going fast on a tight and twisty singletrack? What's not
> > > challenging about riding Broken Mesa with finesse, speed and style?
> >
> > Did I write that it is not challenging?
>
> No, but your eurosnotty attitude indicated that you think it is not as challenging as the trails
> you ride. You have never ridden there, so how do you know?

Sorry, I did not realise that u belong to the kind of people who think that because GW Bush has the
largest missile, you have the greatest trails too. I really don´t want to deny you a little bit of
self appreciation.

>
> > > You've never been there, nor do you know where it is.
> >
> > Now, I do, http://www.utahmountainbiking.com/trails/broken-tg.htm, and
it
> > was a pretty good video, surely, it was not shot on the least
spectacular
> > bits. Looks like great fun :)
>
> How do you know it was not shot in the least spectacular bits?

Should I assume that due to exagerated humility anything else was shot?

>How can you tell from a two-dimensional medium just how technical, or a-technical it is?

Fairly well.

> The bottom line is, you've never ridden there!

No, but I have ridden other US desert trails, around Fruita, splendid riding. On the other hand you
have never ridden in Lunsen, Uppsala, so you don´t have the faintest. It is not about missiles.

> You've crossed over from funny to hilarious. Want to try for hysterical?

Now, you are arguing ad hominem again, did you learn that in school?

Per
 
"Craig Brossman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]... <snip>

> I do get bothered by the "I just bought this, what do you think" posts though, who cares what I/we
> think, especially after the fact.
>
Man, did I get spnaked for this when I first posted here. I guess I just wanted a little reassurance
for the $1,350.00 I just plunked down on a frame. There are some other 'good' choices out there I
considered, and some others I did not know about at the time of my decision.
 
On 15 Feb 2004 19:44:26 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:

>>
>> If anybody plunks down 3 to 7 grand for this hyped up POS they're out of their friggin mind!
>
>I was gonna just quote the whole damn post and type "nice" at the end, but decided not to, after
>this wonderful rant...

thanx,

>
>> MY GOD, SHIRLEY YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS THAT BALL IS CLEARLY LONG!
>
>A McEnroe fan - my kind of people. :)

Comes for long hours on the court...glad someone "got it"

>
>> This type of marketing and wild abandon consumerism is just simply ridiculous. This bike can not
>> possibly be worth it. I could probably slap together a Walgoose for 1/8th the cost and ride it
>> once or twice, much like 7 grand model will be ridden, be just as happy.
>
>But some folks can just plain afford it. Seven G is pocket change to some people, so you can't go
>all nuts over the price. And some folks have to have the most exclusive ride there is. Not only
>custom, but frikkin' expensive custom. Like picking up a Ferarri Enzo. No screwin' around, Bubba -
>just lay down the green. Sure, it's a garage queen, only rolled out for posing, but whatever. OTOH,
>there are some folk out there who can afford it AND will drive it. $600 oil changes and all.
>
>> Have people completely lost their minds? Who are the idiots who pay that much for a bike that
>> probably gets ridden 4 to 5 times a year? Please, speak up I really want to know. I'm callin you
>> out, your time has come.
>
>Probably not somebody who has the time to peruse USENET. Some folks just have to have *the best* of
>everything, no matter the cost or value. "Cost is no object" kind of thinking.
>
>> What is happening to MTBing?!
>
>Freeriding. People buying way expensive posing rigs are gonna happen regardless of the hobby you're
>talking about. I'd bet that Penny could tell a story of somebody buying a high-end sewing machine
>and using it three or four times a year. Had to have the best, you know.
>
>Really, though, illegal and off-trail riding is the major problem. Expensive bikes? Not even a blip
>on the screen, my friend.
>
>> Am I obsessing over the ignorance of others? Perhaps, but damn c'mon who buys that ****? I just
>> can't seem to let stupidity go without a rant or two. I swear I try and work on it...promise.
>
>And there's the "keeping up with the Jones'" aspect. He's got a Ti Lightspeed, ya know, so I gots
>to get me an Ibis Bow Ti. (fill in appropriate brand/model as you see fit.)
>
>Fact: people will buy something without doing even the barest research. Hell, I agonized for two
>years to buy a replacement for my Kona. Some folks just whip out the CC and buy.
>
>Fact: Much of the time, you get what you pay for. Not all the time, however. Sometimes more
>expensive does NOT equal more better. Without research, you just don't know. The advice given here
>often is "buy the best bike you can afford." Some folks concentrate on the "afford" part and forget
>about the "best" part.
>
>A simple, well-made bike assembled with care can be just as, if not more, rewarding than an ultra-high-
>dollar bike if only for the simple reason that it gets ridden, rather than being expensive bike-
>shaped art. Geared or not, suspended or not, it doesn't matter. Because if you have ever ridden and
>had the bike disappear beneath you to become one with you - you'll know that the bike isn't really
>as important as the ride. I always believed it, but had just never experienced it until last year.
>Seven or Giant - it doesn't matter when it's all working.

Much more eloquently put than I could have done.

Peace, Bill ...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them all and
on the trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...
 
mojo deluxe wrote:

> "Craig Brossman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]... <snip>
>
>>I do get bothered by the "I just bought this, what do you think" posts though, who cares what I/we
>>think, especially after the fact.
>>
>
> Man, did I get spnaked for this when I first posted here. I guess I just wanted a little
> reassurance for the $1,350.00 I just plunked down on a frame. There are some other 'good' choices
> out there I considered, and some others I did not know about at the time of my decision.
>

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe I've posted anything negative to someone with this type of post,
in fact, I don't think I ever respond. If you lurk around here even a bit, you'll see that this is
not the place to come so that you feel better about your purchase. I'm of the opinion (not original,
mind you) that the best bike for you is the one you ride. If you bought it because of the color,
size, frame style ..., so what, if you ride and enjoy it, you are better off than anyone who owns a
better, "high end" bike, which rarely gets used.

YMMV.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply)
 
"Craig Brossman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> Don't get me wrong, I don't believe I've posted anything negative to someone with this type of
> post, in fact, I don't think I ever respond.
>

I don't usually respond either unless it's a moron who just wasted his money on a Walgoose.

Greg
 
"Craig Brossman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> mojo deluxe wrote:
>
> > "Craig Brossman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:p[email protected]... <snip>
> >
> >>I do get bothered by the "I just bought this, what do you think" posts though, who cares what
> >>I/we think, especially after the fact.
> >>
> >
> > Man, did I get spnaked for this when I first posted here. I guess I just wanted a little
> > reassurance for the $1,350.00 I just plunked down on a frame. There are some other 'good'
> > choices out there I considered, and
some
> > others I did not know about at the time of my decision.
> >
>
> Don't get me wrong, I don't believe I've posted anything negative to someone with this type of
> post, in fact, I don't think I ever respond. If you lurk around here even a bit, you'll see that
> this is not the place to come so that you feel better about your purchase.
>
The problem was, I did not lurk first.

> I'm of the opinion (not original, mind you) that the best bike for you is the one you ride. If you
> bought it because of the color, size, frame style ..., so what, if you ride and enjoy it, you are
> better off than anyone who owns a better, "high end" bike, which rarely gets used.
>
After test riding my bike the first time out, I felt really good about my purchase.
 
"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Craig Brossman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > Don't get me wrong, I don't believe I've posted anything negative to someone with this type of
> > post, in fact, I don't think I ever respond.
> >
>
> I don't usually respond either unless it's a moron who just wasted his
money
> on a Walgoose.
>
Make me sick, every time I see someone purchasing one of those......those things. I just want to
yell out to them, "don't do it"!!
 
Craig Brossman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jonesy wrote:
>
> > A simple, well-made bike assembled with care can be just as, if not more, rewarding than an ultra-high-
> > dollar bike if only for the simple reason that it gets ridden, rather than being expensive bike-
> > shaped art. Geared or not, suspended or not, it doesn't matter. Because if you have ever ridden
> > and had the bike disappear beneath you to become one with you - you'll know that the bike isn't
> > really as important as the ride. I always believed it, but had just never experienced it until
> > last year. Seven or Giant - it doesn't matter when it's all working.
> > --
> > Jonesy (Composed with the aid of some Bigfoot)
>
> You keep writting like that and you're going to get dismissed from the group, making sense
> and all.

Aww, dammit.

So, if I flame Vandespam, does that erase this post?

> If you ride it and you like it, it should be a good bike from your POV. Maybe you don't like all
> its characteristics, but it is good.
>
> I have little problem with anyone spending all kinds of money for a bike, whether they ride it or
> not. I do get bothered by the "I just bought this, what do you think" posts though, who cares what
> I/we think, especially after the fact.

Yup. And even before the fact. Hell, just whose money is being spent?? Not mine, so what stake do I
have in the decision? And yeah, if George down the street buys one of CF Colnago MTBs with the
Ferarri logo, what do I care? And if he displays it on a mirrored stand in his living room? Fine by
me. It's his bike to do whatever he wants with it. And the same goes for anything someone buys.
While I may think that driving 2 miles to work every day in an Escalade is the wisest use of one's
dollars, I'm not the one who makes that call.

Thanks for the kind words. I'll try and live down to a.m-b. standards in the future.
--
Jonesy
 
"mojo deluxe" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Craig Brossman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]... <snip>
>
> > I do get bothered by the "I just bought this, what do you think" posts though, who cares what
> > I/we think, especially after the fact.
> >
> Man, did I get spnaked for this when I first posted here. I guess I just wanted a little
> reassurance for the $1,350.00 I just plunked down on a frame. There are some other 'good' choices
> out there I considered, and some others I did not know about at the time of my decision.

Yeah, the "after-purchase validation" route is kinda bumpy around here. Craig is right - who cares
what *we* think? If you like it, and you ride it, then it's all good. Besides, just exactly *who* is
paying for this ride? If anyone but the buyer has an opinion, then it doesn't mean squat until they
pony up cash for something "better."

One that I kinda go after is the "either/or" request-for-opinion posts. I love to offer something
outside the request. No, not to be an asshole, but because I was in an "either/or" sort of mode, and
then I woke up.

Don't sweat the rough beginning. Just chalk it up to experience, and keep the RRs coming.
--
Jonesy
 
[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote:
> Bill Wheeler <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If anybody plunks down 3 to 7 grand for this hyped up POS they're out of their friggin mind!
>
> I was gonna just quote the whole damn post and type "nice" at the end,

ROTFLMAO!

After seeing Wheeler do that A THOUSAND TIMES, then get all wordy on this subject, I must say that
we have found this gentleman's hot button.

> > What is happening to MTBing?!
>
> Freeriding. ... Really, though, illegal and off-trail riding is the major problem.

biking in some parts of the world.

> Expensive bikes? Not even a blip on the screen, my friend.

I'd go farther than that. Having people pour semi-stupid amounts of money into the industry, for a
ride that isn't even a road bike that looks like what Lance rides; that's a friggin' blessing.

About 12 years ago, I remember telling my riding buds (who all were on full-rigid mass-produced
clunkers that we were *wearing* *out*) that a single, cutey-gal from the office, who had gone riding
offroad exactly once, asked me if she should get the newest, swankest full-suspension bike as her
first mtb. I had told her she should save her money and start with something ordinary.

Jon K said, "does she have kids?" Me: "no." JK: "does she make lots of money?" Me: "more than I do."
JK: "does she seem to have money problems?"
Me: "not that I can tell." JK: "tell her to buy it, she'll love it! Her shop could use the sale! If
she never uses it, she'll sell it used and a real biker might get a screaming deal! Who gets
hurt? Maybe her, but she doesn't care! She wants you to be impressed with her bike!"

He was right. Next time I saw her, I told her that I'd just had a chance to test ride the bike she
asked me about (a lie) and that it kicked ass and she should buy it.

Lots more important things to be indignant about than people paying too much money for cool bikes
they may not use, like them buying stoopid SUVs that they actually *will* use!
--
Tom Purvis - http://www.arkansasvalley.net/tpurvis/
Salida, CO
 
Tom Purvis <[email protected]> wrote:
>

> biking in some parts of the world.
>
>> Expensive bikes? Not even a blip on the screen, my friend.
>
> I'd go farther than that. Having people pour semi-stupid amounts of money into the industry, for a
> ride that isn't even a road bike that looks like what Lance rides; that's a friggin' blessing.
>
> About 12 years ago, I remember telling my riding buds (who all were on full-rigid mass-produced
> clunkers that we were *wearing* *out*) that a single, cutey-gal from the office, who had gone
> riding offroad exactly once, asked me if she should get the newest, swankest full-suspension bike
> as her first mtb. I had told her she should save her money and start with something ordinary.
>
> Jon K said, "does she have kids?" Me: "no." JK: "does she make lots of money?" Me: "more than I
> do." JK: "does she seem to have money problems?" Me: "not that I can tell." JK: "tell her to buy
> it, she'll love it! Her shop could use the sale! If she never uses it, she'll sell it used and a
> real biker might get a screaming deal! Who gets hurt? Maybe her, but she doesn't care! She wants
> you to be impressed with her bike!"
>
> He was right. Next time I saw her, I told her that I'd just had a chance to test ride the bike she
> asked me about (a lie) and that it kicked ass and she should buy it.
>
> Lots more important things to be indignant about than people paying too much money for cool bikes
> they may not use, like them buying stoopid SUVs that they actually *will* use!

Nice

Hey......., someone hadda do it....

Tom (one-handed)
 
tcmedara wrote:
> Tom Purvis <[email protected]> wrote:
>

>>biking in some parts of the world.
>>
>>
>>>Expensive bikes? Not even a blip on the screen, my friend.
>>
>>I'd go farther than that. Having people pour semi-stupid amounts of money into the industry, for a
>>ride that isn't even a road bike that looks like what Lance rides; that's a friggin' blessing.
>>
>>About 12 years ago, I remember telling my riding buds (who all were on full-rigid mass-produced
>>clunkers that we were *wearing* *out*) that a single, cutey-gal from the office, who had gone
>>riding offroad exactly once, asked me if she should get the newest, swankest full-suspension bike
>>as her first mtb. I had told her she should save her money and start with something ordinary.
>>
>>Jon K said, "does she have kids?" Me: "no." JK: "does she make lots of money?" Me: "more than I
>>do." JK: "does she seem to have money problems?" Me: "not that I can tell." JK: "tell her to buy
>>it, she'll love it! Her shop could use the sale! If she never uses it, she'll sell it used and a
>>real biker might get a screaming deal! Who gets hurt? Maybe her, but she doesn't care! She wants
>>you to be impressed with her bike!"
>>
>>He was right. Next time I saw her, I told her that I'd just had a chance to test ride the bike she
>>asked me about (a lie) and that it kicked ass and she should buy it.
>>
>>Lots more important things to be indignant about than people paying too much money for cool bikes
>>they may not use, like them buying stoopid SUVs that they actually *will* use!
>
>
> Nice
>
> Hey......., someone hadda do it....
>
> Tom (one-handed)

How's the other hand doing?
 
"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Pic sort of looks like it....
>
> http://www.sevencycles.com/bikes/duo.html

I just think it's really clever that you can make a rear suspension system out of half an old rock
shox fork. OTOH I saw one of these frame brand spanking new last week, the guy who sold me my bike
had bought it with the money I spent on my whole Foes FXR.It did indeed look superbly made, and it's
price will buy you exclusivity, for what that's worth.

G
 
Shawn Curry <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Nice
>>
>> Hey......., someone hadda do it....
>>
>> Tom (one-handed)
>
> How's the other hand doing?

narcotics are a wonderful thing!
 
"Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "JD" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet news:[email protected]...
> > "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > What's not challenging about going fast on a tight and twisty singletrack? What's not
> > > > challenging about riding Broken Mesa with finesse, speed and style?
> > >
> > > Did I write that it is not challenging?
> >
> > No, but your eurosnotty attitude indicated that you think it is not as challenging as the trails
> > you ride. You have never ridden there, so how do you know?
>
> Sorry, I did not realise that u belong to the kind of people who think that because GW Bush has
> the largest missile, you have the greatest trails too. I really don´t want to deny you a little
> bit of self appreciation.

Yes, hysterically funny now. Well done.

> > > > You've never been there, nor do you know where it is.
> > >
> > > Now, I do, http://www.utahmountainbiking.com/trails/broken-tg.htm, and
> it
> > > was a pretty good video, surely, it was not shot on the least
> spectacular
> > > bits. Looks like great fun :)
> >
> > How do you know it was not shot in the least spectacular bits?
>
> Should I assume that due to exagerated humility anything else was shot?

You should assume that 100% of the trail was not shot.

> >How can you tell from a two-dimensional medium just how technical, or a-technical it is?
>
> Fairly well.

I doubt that.

> > The bottom line is, you've never ridden there!
>
> No, but I have ridden other US desert trails, around Fruita, splendid riding.

No, you've ridden "tourist Fruita". It's doubtful that you'll ever ride the real Fruita.

> On the other hand you have never ridden in Lunsen, Uppsala, so you don´t have the faintest. It is
> not about missiles.

I never claimed to have ridden there now, nor did I claim that trais you have ridden (other than
"tourist Fruita") are not tecnical in nature.

> > You've crossed over from funny to hilarious. Want to try for hysterical?
>
> Now, you are arguing ad hominem again, did you learn that in school?

I learned a long time ago to add hominy to any menudo, european or otherwise.

JD
 
JD retorted :
>>>>> Did I write that it is not challenging? "Per Löwdin"
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> "JD" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:<[email protected]>...
>>>>> What's not challenging about going fast on a tight and twisty singletrack? What's not
>>>>> challenging about riding Broken Mesa with finesse, speed and style?
>>>>

>>>
>>> No, but your eurosnotty attitude indicated that you think it is not as challenging as the trails
>>> you ride. You have never ridden there, so how do you know?
>>
>> Sorry, I did not realise that u belong to the kind of people who think that because GW Bush has
>> the largest missile, you have the greatest trails too. I really don´t want to deny you a little
>> bit of self appreciation.
>
> Yes, hysterically funny now. Well done.
>
>>>>> You've never been there, nor do you know where it is.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I do, http://www.utahmountainbiking.com/trails/broken-tg.htm, and
>> it
>>>> was a pretty good video, surely, it was not shot on the least
>> spectacular
>>>> bits. Looks like great fun :)
>>>
>>> How do you know it was not shot in the least spectacular bits?
>>
>> Should I assume that due to exagerated humility anything else was shot?
>
> You should assume that 100% of the trail was not shot.
>
>>> How can you tell from a two-dimensional medium just how technical, or a-technical it is?
>>
>> Fairly well.
>
> I doubt that.
>
>>> The bottom line is, you've never ridden there!
>>
>> No, but I have ridden other US desert trails, around Fruita, splendid riding.
>
> No, you've ridden "tourist Fruita". It's doubtful that you'll ever ride the real Fruita.
>
>> On the other hand you have never ridden in Lunsen, Uppsala, so you don´t have the faintest. It is
>> not about missiles.
>
> I never claimed to have ridden there now, nor did I claim that trais you have ridden (other than
> "tourist Fruita") are not tecnical in nature.
>
>>> You've crossed over from funny to hilarious. Want to try for hysterical?
>>
>> Now, you are arguing ad hominem again, did you learn that in school?
>
> I learned a long time ago to add hominy to any menudo, european or otherwise.
>
> JD

I add hominy to posole, does that count?

ps
 
> > Sorry, I did not realise that u belong to the kind of people who think
that
> > because GW Bush has the largest missile, you have the greatest trails
too. I
> > really don´t want to deny you a little bit of self appreciation.
>
> Yes, hysterically funny now. Well done.

And, absolutely pertinent, I am glad I that I could contribute to your entertainment.

Per http://lowdin.nu
 
"Penny S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> JD retorted :
> >>>>> Did I write that it is not challenging? "Per Löwdin"
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >> "JD" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >>> "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:<[email protected]>...
> >>>>> What's not challenging about going fast on a tight and twisty singletrack? What's not
> >>>>> challenging about riding Broken Mesa with finesse, speed and style?
> >>>>
>
> >>>
> >>> No, but your eurosnotty attitude indicated that you think it is not as challenging as the
> >>> trails you ride. You have never ridden there, so how do you know?
> >>
> >> Sorry, I did not realise that u belong to the kind of people who think that because GW Bush has
> >> the largest missile, you have the greatest trails too. I really don´t want to deny you a little
> >> bit of self appreciation.
> >
> > Yes, hysterically funny now. Well done.
> >
> >>>>> You've never been there, nor do you know where it is.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now, I do, http://www.utahmountainbiking.com/trails/broken-tg.htm, and
> >> it
> >>>> was a pretty good video, surely, it was not shot on the least
> >> spectacular
> >>>> bits. Looks like great fun :)
> >>>
> >>> How do you know it was not shot in the least spectacular bits?
> >>
> >> Should I assume that due to exagerated humility anything else was shot?
> >
> > You should assume that 100% of the trail was not shot.
> >
> >>> How can you tell from a two-dimensional medium just how technical, or a-technical it is?
> >>
> >> Fairly well.
> >
> > I doubt that.
> >
> >>> The bottom line is, you've never ridden there!
> >>
> >> No, but I have ridden other US desert trails, around Fruita, splendid riding.
> >
> > No, you've ridden "tourist Fruita". It's doubtful that you'll ever ride the real Fruita.
> >
> >> On the other hand you have never ridden in Lunsen, Uppsala, so you don´t have the faintest. It
> >> is not about missiles.
> >
> > I never claimed to have ridden there now, nor did I claim that trais you have ridden (other than
> > "tourist Fruita") are not tecnical in nature.
> >
> >>> You've crossed over from funny to hilarious. Want to try for hysterical?
> >>
> >> Now, you are arguing ad hominem again, did you learn that in school?
> >
> > I learned a long time ago to add hominy to any menudo, european or otherwise.
> >
> > JD
>
>
> I add hominy to posole, does that count?
>
Grits rule, Penny.
 
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