Share your sprint workouts
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whoawhoa said:
Acid levels???
Havent we all learn't that lactic acid isn't involved in fatigue. That myth died 10 years ago.
A road sprinter needs to make sure they can get to the end of an event with enough strength to win. A track sprinter needs to be able to jump from a standing start to max power output within seconds.
I suspect a lot of people who do dedicated sprint work for road racing would be better served by making sure they have the endurance to go the distance and then the strength and power to get into a good position for the sprint.
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
Well, that's certainly part of it, but they also need to be able to out-sprint the other guys. Most low-level amateur races in the US come down to a pack sprint, as the OP mentioned.fergie said:
You need to have some of both to place well in the low-level amateur ranks, and we each have to judge how much focus to place on each aspect of the race. I don't see anything wrong with roadies asking for sprint training advice if they personally feel that a little more focus is needed there.fergie said:
frenchyge said:
True, but this begs the question why are they not doing more to try and split the bunch. Even Tom Boonen showed in Tour of Flanders that sprinters can enjoy solo wins. Why try and win a sprint from a large group when you can make the race harder and win from a small group. Preferably a group of one!
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
Easier said than done unless the course has some long climbs. For example, in Kansas where frenchyge races there aren't any long climbs. Let's say one rider has an FT of 300w and that the average of the field is 250w. There is no way the stronger rider could sustain a break with only a 50w sustainable power advantage. With a drafting advantage of ~30%, the other guys will just draft at 210w (well below their threshold) while he rides at 100% of his threshold. Now, if he can recruit a couple of partners and do 15sec rotations at 375w, they could probably get away. If you can ride away solo, you probably have ~100w more sustainabe power than the rest of the group. If so, maybe you're in the wrong category.fergie said:
SolarEnergy said:Honnestly, my question was addressed to everyone on this thread, especialy those who were pretty loudspoken. But we haven't got many answers so far so I'm gonna repeat the question (about sprint training) :
I'll be a bit presumptuous and assume that was directed at me.
Basic periodization theory is to work different aspects of fitness at different times of the season based on your requirements. The idea is that you can't increase your aerobic fitness and endurance (i.e. the amount of training you can stand...Chronic Training Load for those of you in the know) when doing high intensity stuff because either the aerobic stuff will detract from the high intensity stuff, or vice versa.
That being said, my own personal plan is only mildly periodized because this is a hobby and my life is quite hectic right now.
During the winter I focus on increasing FTP with primarily L4 during the week indoors and L3 work outdoors on the weekends with a smattering of L5 to keep the progression moving. Because of my job, I'm only able to hit about 300 to 400 TSS/week but considering the low my hours are that's pretty good.
In the spring time I'm pretty much burnt out on L4 work and start mixing L3 outdoors and L5 indoors and outdoors. Racing is also added in at this time. I'll usually start adding my sprint work here as well.
Once the race season gets under weigh, racing during the week, weekends or hard group rides give me all of the L5+ work I need and I fill in the rest of my time with L2 to 4.
Not perfect, but it's the best I can do considering the time I have. If all goes well I should be able to be competitive in the 3s
It was directed at everybody, sincerely. And not in a confrontational manner. But rather to better understand everyone's point of view, by putting it in the context of mid/long term planning.beerco said:
For instance, now that I read RappDaddyo's approach to long term planning, I understand much better why he favors working at 90% of MP for duration. He performs extensive block training.
And reading your post makes me realized that after all, you guys approach L6+ pretty much the same way : melted into longer rides or races.
Thank you very much, I appreciated.beerco said:
I do have one question. Am I wasting my time doing L7 intervals 6 months from important races? I might continue to do them anyway because I enjoy experimenting with torque vs. cadence to generate power at high levels, but am I likely to attain any sustainable increase in sprint power?SolarEnergy said:
I don't know. I don't think so.RapDaddyo said:
To me, a season should go from general to specific. For a road cyclist, specific involves more LT, VO2Max and Tempo efforts. So I would be tempted to think that as the racing season approaches, more time should be spent doing this type of work. L6 and L7 are not very specific. Therfore, it should be targeted rather early in the preparation season.
Another point in favor of early L5-6-7 developpement. L7 gives you speed for L6, which in turn, gives you speed for L5 and so on... Kind of working backward in other words. And as a coach, I have always felt better knowing that my people have a good level of speed working their different zones.
But take for example the other side, trackies. Applying the "general to specific" rule with these guys, would involve the opposite. That is getting the endurance developpement done rather early in the season, and as the major races approach, making sure they commit enough quality time to sprint.
RapDaddyo said:
Do you race like this??? You must be the guy in the bunch with a calculator in your back pocket!
Back in the olde days you just got out and attacked, where the race was hard you used this to your advantage, you formed alliances, used the wind, corners, lulls in the pace etc.
Does Frenchyge resign himself to a bunch sprint in every race?
We hardly race on the hills in Christchurch because we can't get resource consent for hill racing and most of races split up quite nicely. What about track racing? We are half way through our track season and nearly half of the endurance events split up as riders use tactics (find that word in your power meter handbook) to avoid it coming to a sprint.
What do you think they do in Belgium or Holland where there are no big hills and over 50-60 people in contention in a bunch of 100-300 riders! They get out and attack. Probably even the guys who rate themselves in a sprint (like Boonen in Flanders).
A lot of this reminds me of a conversation I had with a Pro rider when he was back in the country for our summer...
HF: Hows it going?
Rider: Really good, just been tested and lactate curve has shifted to the right, power output at anaerobic threshold is up and Wingate has improved 16 watts.
HF: Cool, how did the race go yesterday?
Rider: Bummer, got spat when the hammer dropped.
HF: Uh huh.
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
You have no idea how insightful that statement is. As a cyclist, I boil training and racing down to two things. In training, I can increase my sustainable power for the durations of my races and can practice the specific positions required (e.g., aero position for TTs). In races, I can manage my sustainable power to my maximum advantage. Today we have an additional piece of information that we didn't have before -- power. And, thanks to Andy Coggan, we have an algorithm for converting a variable power ride of any duration to a physiologically equivalent constant power ride of the same duration. I plan to take maximum advantage of this additional information. The only place you got it wrong in your characterization of how I plan to race is that you're a bit dated on the technology front. You would have been a little closer to the mark if you had said I would be the guy in the bunch with a head-up display similar to what today's fighter pilots have.fergie said:
Hamish, I like your style. I bit gruff and a bit old(e) school. Just like me and I'll never change for any of the latest "jet fighter techno gadgetry". To each his own though.fergie said:
It's very true that sprinting at the end of a hard attacking race is much different than doing sprints with full rest. Sprinting for the win goes to the guy who has petrol left in the tank and knows how to follow the right wheels until the last second, without wasted effort. Fast twitch muscles help, but sprinting mainly comes down to courage and fight.
The main training trick to better sprinting is to plainly be as strong or stronger than your opponents and then learn the wily craft of dodge-bike.
http://www.ergomo.net/en/231.phpRapDaddyo said:
Are you aware of the built-in functions in the new Ergomo? No slide-rule required in the pack
rmur
RapDaddyo said:
Whether you're "wasting" time or not is very subjective. However, you can figure that you'll see the most improvement in the first 12 weeks of any training program.
On the other hand though, I'd still argue that what you're doing is still too easy to really be classified as L7. while technically it is L7, the spirit of L7 is to be much closer to explosive maximal efforts.
I still advocate doing true L7 work when fresh to increase your peak power. It does make a difference. The first race I won was at the end of a relatively short crit (NP for the race was 260w for 30min). The finish was after a hill which was after a roundabout where you can't pedal at speed. The roundabout gave me enough rest that I dropped a 1000w+ bomb coming out of it and beat second by about 2 bike lengths.
There is a time to train your long sprint with the 400w leadout etc but this is more training your AWC and your threshold for pain. This is not building the peak power you can hit.
Thanks for the link, rmur. Actually, I was familiar with where ergomo was going with their NP, IF and TSS functions. That is useful info, but I'm talking about something that goes a bit (maybe even a byte) beyond that.rmur17 said:http://www.ergomo.net/en/231.php
Are you aware of the built-in functions in the new Ergomo? No slide-rule required in the pack
rmur
I think you are "hypertrophying" the facts a bitfrenchyge said:That sounds eerily familiar. Solar, put me down for this, too.
Not *every* race, no. But when a majority of the low-level amateur races end in a pack sprint, I see no reason not to try to cover that base to some extent. I don't make it a main focus of my training plan, but I think a typical low-level roadie can make significant gains by investing a pretty small amount of training time. I think it's unwise to ignore sprinting, knowing that most of the races I enter will come down to a pack sprint despite the attacks that take place during the race. Neither the OP nor I suggested foregoing aerobic training and focusing exclusively on sprinting -- I'm stating that I think it's a good move to give sprint training a modicum of attention for a low-level roadie.fergie said:
If you prefer to talk about pro races, I probably have much less experience than you do in that arena, but I know that a large majority of the flat stages I see on TV result in a breakaway getting caught in the final kilometers and then a pack sprint. Do your observations run contrary to this? Do those pros and their onboard coaches not have the tactical savvy to prevent the race from coming back together at the end? What am I missing here?
frenchyge said:
If you check back you will note that like Lydiard I do include sprint training throughout the year. Not always with the aim of improving ones sprint but as a type on the bike weights.
In the Tour only selected teams are racing for the flat stages. If there were 60sec time bonuses for each stage I suspect it would be a different story as more GC contenders would vie for stage wins than just the side show that is bunch sprints.
Sort of like the classics (except Paris Tours and Milan San Remo) where you don't see bunch sprinters feature in the results. Milan San Remo has more hills next year and Boonen does win Classics but lets face there's something special about that boy!
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
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