Sharon : The Temple Mount

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by limerickman, Nov 5, 2004.

  1. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    16,131
    Likes Received:
    115
    Todays Guardian Newspaper carries a report about General Ariel Sharon and his thoughts about the possible burial site of Yassar Arafat.

    Specifically, Arafat's people want him to be buried in Jersusalem on the Temple Mount.
    General Sharon objects, stating that, "The Temple Mount is reserved as a burial site for worthy people such as Jewish Kings -and not terrorists".

    As always when that lot speak - one has to be careful to remember that one doesn't get the full truth, when they speak.

    1991.

    1991 - so what ?

    1991 - a British businessman called Robert Maxwell died, apparently after falling off his yacht, on the Spanish Coast.

    Robert Maxwell - who's real name was Jan Koch - was a business man who owned the biggest selling newspaper in Britain "The Daily Mirror" and other
    substantial business interests.
    Maxwell though raided his employees pension fund and stole £500 million (Sterling) from that fund - leaving pensioned employees with nothing for their retirement and many of whom are now impoverished.

    Maxwell was given a State funeral in Israel (in 1991), as he was Jewish, and is buried on the Temple Mount with - and get this - "all of the other righteous Jews".
    Seems General Sharon has forgotten this small issue.

    Hypocrisy - don't you just love it ?
     
    Tags:


  2. Ottis

    Ottis New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    0
    so??? he wasn't a terorist. he was jewish and was burried on god-given jewish land.
     
  3. fixit

    fixit New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh oh, God given, oh oh.

    Just in case you forgot, Terrorists are not the only evil People outthere.
     
  4. fixit

    fixit New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, and I think I know where Yigal Amir is gonna be buried...
     
  5. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    16,131
    Likes Received:
    115
    No, he wasn't a terrorist - he was a two timing thief, who stole money from his employees, his shareholder and his bankers.
    Who just happened to be Jewish.

    Read Tom Bowers book "Maxwell - The Final Verdict".
    Bower suggests that Maxwell worked for Mossad.

    God-given Jewish land ?
    Doubt that somehow.
     
  6. FredC

    FredC New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you've seen the land deeds signed by god. Wow. Where can we see them?
     
  7. Weisse Luft

    Weisse Luft New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    1,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bury him in the land of his birth. Oh, wait. They don't want him buried there...because he is of the lowest caste, a nomad shepard caste whose only modern utility is to be an appointed soldier in a proxy war because the fighting caste got their collective asses waxed in every battle against the IDF.

    They are going to use the millions he scammed of his people to keep him "alive" until they can get him buried on the Temple Mount. Sharon will never budge. :D
     
  8. Leesie

    Leesie New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2004
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  9. FredC

    FredC New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bevakashav shmuck katan!
    'Temple Mount, the burial site for worthy people such as JEWISH KINGS. What next from the mamzair Sharon. From the qualifications required, there must be lots of space for the epoque of the Kings to come. In fact why don't you go and play jig a jig with your beloved. Dum di dum di Lust is in the air. La di da di da. Go and pump her up.
     
  10. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    16,131
    Likes Received:
    115
     
  11. FredC

    FredC New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  12. FredC

    FredC New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you will find that Robert Maxwell was initially refused permission to be buried in the sacred cemetery ground of the temple mount. After a lot of jiggery pokerery ( probably financial again) the international fraudster was laid to rest.
    That's a waste of space taken for a future King of Palestine. Any David's out there? Put your name down for the job.
     
  13. Saucy

    Saucy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is it necessary to live in Israel to form an opinion on the situation?

    I have read yours and limerickmans posts about the american bias towards Israel. Certainly the american media tends to be very pro israel but I think that there is also a lot of sympathy among the general public for the palestinians as well. Shows like Nightline have shown the israeli/palestinian conflict in a relatively unbiased light.

    You should know that while there is strong jewish presence in the US government and media, many supporters of the palestinian cause are actually jewish. Zinn and Chomsky (who are of jewish origin, I'm not sure if they are practicing jews) for example are supportive of the palestinian cause and vocally oppose U.S. policy with Israel. Of course, not many people listen to them because they are watching fox news but that is another story.

    My point is that you and limerickman are overstating the pro-israeli sentiment of most americans and also the influence of jews in america.

    Certainly, in terms of foreign policy, the US appears to be very one sided. This is because Israel has been very smart in manipulating the western countries. They know that Israel will be their ally in a strategic region of the world and so they support them at all costs.

    You shouldn't judge all americans by the morons that are on this site. Most americans recognize that the israeli/palestinian situation is complicated with each side having viable arguments for their positions.
     
  14. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    16,131
    Likes Received:
    115
    Myself and Fred C are in the minority here - with regard to Jewish/Israeli situation.

    Intrinsically, the USA (both Republican and Democrat) are unequivocal in their support of Judaism and the Jews.
    I wonder why there is this unconditional support.
    And I have to add that it is the US posters (and the US media) who scream
    "anti-semiticism" when legitimate questions are asked.
    I wonder why this is ?

    The USA is 200-odd years young.
    It seems to me that American people recall the history of Judaism only from the 1930's onwards.
    And even this recollection is selective.
    No account is taken of 1948 for example.
    Yet, people are able to recite statistics about how the Jewish people were
    persecuted in the 1930's.
    Great emphasis is placed on the the actions of the Nazi's against the Jewish people.
    Historical events like the creation of the concentration camps - have been
    altered so as to create the impression that only Jewish people were put in to these camps.
    More Christians died under the Nazi rule than any other religious denomination.

    Here in Europe, there has been a long history regarding the Jewish people.
    For whatever reason, they have managed to incur the wrath of many people throughout history, of which Adolf Hitler was the most recent.

    Martin Luther in the 16th century highlighted issues with the Jewish people.
    The list of historical figures who have highlighted issues with the Jewish people, is too extensive for me to document every single instance.

    You are totally correct - there has been manipluation by the Israeli's/Jews.
    And it seems that this manipulation has worked in the USA, in particular.

    I am not persuaded of the validity of the arguments for the creation of Israel, in it's present location.
    Unlike the Yasser Arafat - who agreed to recognise Israel incidentally - there are many people who think that Israel should have never been created in
    Palestine.
    I have stated it before and I will state it again - the Balfour Declaration identified Argentina as a location for the creation of Israel in the early 20th
    century.

    I respect a lot of your views, Saucy.
    But on this issue, I have to disagree with you.
    The issue of Israel and the Jewish nation is the seminal issue affecting the world today.
     
  15. Weisse Luft

    Weisse Luft New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    1,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bull. Christianity is about 700 years older than Islam. Judaism is about 5000 years older than that. Israel, the land WEST of the Jordan, had been under Jewish rule for much longer than Islam has been in existence.

    Oh yes, claiming that the US being only 200+ years in existence cannot fathom world politics is a red herring.

    Oh, FredC, I am "off the market"...and no, my mother had nothing to do with this relationship. She's a Cat 3 racer, someone who can keep up with me at least on group rides. Velogal is just a friendly poster with a great mind and wide range of interests but probably too young for me.

    19 out of ~24 terror groups world wide are Islamic. Tell me again what is the problem?
     
  16. Leesie

    Leesie New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2004
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes I am an American Jew. I have a very strong Jewish identity- I try to educate myself about my people’s history and also the current situation in Israel. I spent one year in Israel (2001-2002) after the Intifadah had already started.



    So you want some history? Jerusalem has been the Jewish capitol since over 3,000 years ago (1010BCE) when King David pronounced it as such. Solomon built the first Jewish Temple in Jerusalem to contain the Ark of the Covenant. This kingdom lasted until 722BCE, when the Jews were conquered by the Assyrians, then the Babylonians (597BCE), Persians (560BCE), and the Greeks (332BCE). The Jews were living in Jerusalem throughout this whole time, yet they were controlled and persecuted by their conquerors. The Jews finally successfully rebelled against the Greeks and won their independence until 63BCE, when the Romans conquered them. Under the Roman Empire, the Second Temple was built (including the walls that surround the Temple- parts of it remain today). More Jewish persecution, etc etc and the Jews revolted again- and lost to the huge Roman Empire. Second Temple was destroyed, as well as over one million Jews massacred and others enslaved. In about 135CE Rome declared Jerusalem a Pagan city and no Jews were allowed to enter. Jews were persecuted and sent into exile. It is at this time, when the Jews were exiled, that the emphasis in Judaism became more on study than on being in Jerusalem, as they could not physically be in Jerusalem due to their being exiled from their land. Hence, the worldwide spread of Jewish population (which still only consists of 1/3 of 1 percent of the entire world population). However, even though the Jews could no longer pray at the Temple, Jerusalem always remained in their thoughts and prayers- even to this day, we say in our prayers (those who do not live in Israel), “Next year in Jerusalem.” In 638 the Jews helped the Muslims to regain Jerusalem from the Persians, and both Muslims and Jews lived in peace. The Crusades came along after that, and the Muslims fended them off several times. All the while, Jews still inhabited Jerusalem and guarded the Temple Mount, which is all that remains of the Second Temple. Then in the 16th century the Ottoman Turks conquered the land, and held it until WWI, and lost it to the British. To sum up, the Jews have been living in Jerusalem continuously for thousands of years (and since 1840s have made up the majority of its population).



    We have been persecuted in every single country in the world, for no reason other than being different. We were a nation without a country for a very long time (since our exile from our land). No one wanted us, and we had nowhere to go. The idea for a Jewish country has been around since before the 19th century, although Theodore Herzl officially started the Zionist movement in the early 1800s, and wrote about the need for Jews to have a country of their own. Hitler was certainly not the first to persecute Jews, yet after the murder of over 6 million Jews, it became apparent to many other people that Jews need a country of their own. [side note- Limerickman, I am not sure where you get your information about more Christians dying under Nazi rule than any other group- but anyway there is a very big difference between killings that occur during war or change of government, etc and genocide- (according to Encarta Dictionary) ‘the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group.’ Hitler’s goal was to rid the entire world of the Jews.].



    You are correct in that no one should prevent another from visiting their holy site. That is why Israel’s law states, ‘Whoever does anything that is likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the various religions to the places sacred to them is liable to imprisonment for a term of five years.’ Also, Israel allows the different religions to govern their own holy sites. Even the Temple Mount is actually under Palestinian control. This is a very different approach then the one that Jordan took. In 1947 the UN approved a partition plan for Palestine. The land was to be divided into a Jewish country and a Muslim country. However, the Arabs rejected this, and in 1948 when Israel was declared a country, all of the surrounding Arab countries declared war on Israel. Arabs killed about 1500 Jews living in Jerusalem, seized the Old City, and expelled the Jews. Jerusalem was taken by Jordan, and no Jew was allowed to enter- no Jew could visit our holiest site. This went on until 1967 when the Arab countries again declared war on Israel. Israel regained Jerusalem, and ever since then, it has been open to people of all religions.
     
  17. Leesie

    Leesie New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2004
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  18. FredC

    FredC New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice post Saucy,
    Lim, some two others, and myself can close threads with logic and put downs. The nice thing about this one is the tosspots will only join with irreverence and irrelevence which doesn't contribute anything to the topic.
    May I make comment on your post by paragraph?
    1. It is better to have first hand experience of living in Israel, and if not be able to read unadulterated accounts of unbiased opinion.
    2. Unbiased reportage. Not seen much of it yet on this board until now. I don't get Nightline on the TV.
    3. Don't know Fox news, but I can see where are coming from.
    4. Lim and I understate, rather than overstate the case. If we can get the discussion balanced somewhat between ourselves we might progress. Some of the things I have been called could result in libel/defamation proceedings. Look at case law for internet libel.
    5. As for the rest of the post, a kick off the side, pull on the rope and pull up the sail. Weather and wind uncertain. Latrines cleaned by Marion Wayneker.
     
  19. FredC

    FredC New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maxwell worked for Mossad? Don't go overboard!!
     
  20. FredC

    FredC New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your comments are about as much use as a chocolate bathtub. And if you know so much why didn't you mention that god granted you eretz palestine? Or Il joordan, the hashemite kingdom. RIGHT SO, GAME ON.
     
Loading...
Loading...