shifting problems when you mix and match Campy

[[email protected]]

Hello

I'm just treasure hunting on ebay to upgrade my Fondriest steel bike
from 8 speed chorus to 10 speed. For my Chorus cranks, I just bought
myself a new Campy 10 speed big tooth ring in order to make the switch
to 10 speed. I was lucky enough to snag a brand new right hand only
Chorus shifter, so that saves me from buying a whole set. The only
thing left is the cassette, chain, and rear derailluer and front
derailluer(although some websites, either brandford bike or shedlon
brown says you don't need to change the front derailluer...not sure)

I checked through the old threads and on other boards,
www.campyonly.com specifically, and there seems to not be any specific
sort of talk about using a "higher" end shifter, like Chorus, with a
"lower" end rear derailluer, like Centaur. Generally people have said
you can mix and match Campy components, but from the threads I have
looked at, most of the talk has centered around cranks and bottom
brackets and hubs.

anyone using a mix and match with regards to shifters and rear
derailluer and had any problems? I want to go with a new Centaur 10
speed rear derailleur rather than a Record or Chorus, to save some
$$$$.

my last question would be front derailleur. There is no way to salvage
my Chorus 8 speed front derailleur and use it with the 10 speed set up?
>From a non-bike techie point of view, I would think you wouldn't have
to change the front deraiileur since it just throws the chain up/down
on the cranks, unless of course the thinner 10 speed chain and big ring
could pose a problem for the 8 speed front derailleur.

Thanks in advance.
-Mike

 

[Lou Holtman]

[email protected] wrote:
> Hello
>
> I'm just treasure hunting on ebay to upgrade my Fondriest steel bike
> from 8 speed chorus to 10 speed. For my Chorus cranks, I just bought
> myself a new Campy 10 speed big tooth ring in order to make the switch
> to 10 speed. I was lucky enough to snag a brand new right hand only
> Chorus shifter, so that saves me from buying a whole set. The only
> thing left is the cassette, chain, and rear derailluer and front
> derailluer(although some websites, either brandford bike or shedlon
> brown says you don't need to change the front derailluer...not sure)
>
> I checked through the old threads and on other boards,
> www.campyonly.com specifically, and there seems to not be any specific
> sort of talk about using a "higher" end shifter, like Chorus, with a
> "lower" end rear derailluer, like Centaur. Generally people have said
> you can mix and match Campy components, but from the threads I have
> looked at, most of the talk has centered around cranks and bottom
> brackets and hubs.
>
> anyone using a mix and match with regards to shifters and rear
> derailluer and had any problems? I want to go with a new Centaur 10
> speed rear derailleur rather than a Record or Chorus, to save some
> $$$$.

Use any Campagnolo rear derailleur with your shifters and match the
bottom bracket with the crank.
>
> my last question would be front derailleur. There is no way to salvage
> my Chorus 8 speed front derailleur and use it with the 10 speed set up?
>>From a non-bike techie point of view, I would think you wouldn't have
> to change the front deraiileur since it just throws the chain up/down
> on the cranks, unless of course the thinner 10 speed chain and big ring
> could pose a problem for the 8 speed front derailleur.

You are correct since the front shifter in not indexed. So you are set
to go.


Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:00:34 -0800, mxd1007 wrote:

> anyone using a mix and match with regards to shifters and rear
> derailluer and had any problems? I want to go with a new Centaur 10
> speed rear derailleur rather than a Record or Chorus, to save some
> $$$$.

I'm using 9-speed, not 10, but otherwise I fit your bill. My front
derailleur is Record from some time in the late '80s, the
cranks/chainrings are mountain-bike parts, and the rear derailleur is a
newish Veloce (2004, I think). Shifters are 8-speed Record with a
9-speed shifting disk.

campyonly.com would certainly say you "can't" use a post 2002 (I think
that was the year) derailleur with old shifters, but it works fine. _Any_
front derailleur will work, since Campy front shifting is not indexed.
Campy will try to sell you a 10-speed front derailleur, trying to tell you
that you need a thinner cage to shift properly. But think about it. When
shifting, only one side of the cage contacts the chain. It doesn't matter
whether the cage was originally designed for a wider chain.

>
> my last question would be front derailleur. There is no way to salvage
> my Chorus 8 speed front derailleur and use it with the 10 speed set up?

See above. Mine was off a friend's fixed-gear conversion.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand
_`\(,_ | mathematics.
(_)/ (_) |

 

[A Muzi]

[email protected] wrote:
> I'm just treasure hunting on ebay to upgrade my Fondriest steel bike
> from 8 speed chorus to 10 speed. For my Chorus cranks, I just bought
> myself a new Campy 10 speed big tooth ring in order to make the switch
> to 10 speed. I was lucky enough to snag a brand new right hand only
> Chorus shifter, so that saves me from buying a whole set. The only
> thing left is the cassette, chain, and rear derailluer and front
> derailluer(although some websites, either brandford bike or shedlon
> brown says you don't need to change the front derailluer...not sure)
>
> I checked through the old threads and on other boards,
> www.campyonly.com specifically, and there seems to not be any specific
> sort of talk about using a "higher" end shifter, like Chorus, with a
> "lower" end rear derailluer, like Centaur. Generally people have said
> you can mix and match Campy components, but from the threads I have
> looked at, most of the talk has centered around cranks and bottom
> brackets and hubs.
>
> anyone using a mix and match with regards to shifters and rear
> derailluer and had any problems? I want to go with a new Centaur 10
> speed rear derailleur rather than a Record or Chorus, to save some
> $$$$.
>
> my last question would be front derailleur. There is no way to salvage
> my Chorus 8 speed front derailleur and use it with the 10 speed set up?
>>From a non-bike techie point of view, I would think you wouldn't have
> to change the front deraiileur since it just throws the chain up/down
> on the cranks, unless of course the thinner 10 speed chain and big ring
> could pose a problem for the 8 speed front derailleur.

Yes, use your Chorus Ten shifters with your present Centaur
rear changer and older 'eight' front - no problem. We do a
large number of "Ergo upgrades" to vintage bikes, almost
always reusing the existing front. Older Super Record,
ancient 105 Shimano, even early Suntours - no problem
whatsoever. If your front shifted with downtube levers it
will shift with Ergo.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

[email protected] wrote:
> Hello
>
> I'm just treasure hunting on ebay to upgrade my Fondriest steel bike
> from 8 speed chorus to 10 speed. For my Chorus cranks, I just bought
> myself a new Campy 10 speed big tooth ring in order to make the switch
> to 10 speed. I was lucky enough to snag a brand new right hand only
> Chorus shifter, so that saves me from buying a whole set. The only
> thing left is the cassette, chain, and rear derailluer and front
> derailluer(although some websites, either brandford bike or shedlon
> brown says you don't need to change the front derailluer...not sure)

You only need a 10s shifter, cogset(may need to convert rear hub) and
chain Don't need any Derailleurs, chainrings, or brakes.

>
> I checked through the old threads and on other boards,
> www.campyonly.com specifically, and there seems to not be any specific
> sort of talk about using a "higher" end shifter, like Chorus, with a
> "lower" end rear derailluer, like Centaur. Generally people have said
> you can mix and match Campy components, but from the threads I have
> looked at, most of the talk has centered around cranks and bottom
> brackets and hubs.
>
> anyone using a mix and match with regards to shifters and rear
> derailluer and had any problems? I want to go with a new Centaur 10
> speed rear derailleur rather than a Record or Chorus, to save some
> $$$$.

IOf it isn't worn out use the 8s rear derailleur-it will work fine.
>
> my last question would be front derailleur. There is no way to salvage
> my Chorus 8 speed front derailleur and use it with the 10 speed set up?

Just use it-it will work fine as well.

> >From a non-bike techie point of view, I would think you wouldn't have
> to change the front deraiileur since it just throws the chain up/down
> on the cranks, unless of course the thinner 10 speed chain and big ring
> could pose a problem for the 8 speed front derailleur.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> -Mike

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:

> I was lucky enough to snag a brand new right hand only
> Chorus shifter, so that saves me from buying a whole set.

What about the pointy-roundy lever hood compatibility issue? ("Let not
thy left hand know...")

> The only thing left is the cassette

Brethren scroungers, let us turn to page
http://search-desc.ebay.com/search/...te+10&sacat=7294&catref=C6&bs=Search&fts=2&fs
and gaze at the wonders revealed... --D-y

 

[[email protected]]

8 speed rear derailluer with 10 speed shifters? any adjustment needed
to be made? Cool!!! that saves me more $$$$ but I'm wondering how
come no one else "advocates" this on other bike boards like campyonly
or brandford bike or sheldon brown(I think at least one of them
mentioned you had to change the rear, not sure exactly who though).

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
> 8 speed rear derailluer with 10 speed shifters? any adjustment needed
> to be made? Cool!!! that saves me more $$$$ but I'm wondering how
> come no one else "advocates" this on other bike boards like campyonly
> or brandford bike or sheldon brown(I think at least one of them
> mentioned you had to change the rear, not sure exactly who though).

They don't recommend it because there is a real difference in shift
quality when you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and rear derailleurs.
Campagnolo changed their rear derailleurs in 2001. Different angle of
movement or something. If you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and
derailleurs the shifting is not as great as if you don't mix them.
That is not saying it is not good or does not work. Its just not as
great. If you pay attention you can tell when it does not shift as
quickly as it should. If you don't pay attention then you won't notice
it. But the slight degradation is still there.

 

[Paul Kopit]

On 12 Feb 2006 13:00:34 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>I'm just treasure hunting on ebay to upgrade my Fondriest steel bike
>from 8 speed chorus to 10 speed. For my Chorus cranks, I just bought
>myself a new Campy 10 speed big tooth ring in order to make the switch
>to 10 speed. I was lucky enough to snag a brand new right hand only
>Chorus shifter, so that saves me from buying a whole set. The only
>thing left is the cassette, chain, and rear derailluer and front
>derailluer(although some websites, either brandford bike or shedlon
>brown says you don't need to change the front derailluer...not sure)

Your 8sp Chorus rear derailleur will work fine, even for a 13/29
cassette. The cage is shorter than a newer 9 or 10 sp models but the
diameter of the pulleys is smaller. My wife's bike is using Chorus 10
Ergo x 8sp Record R derailleur and 10sp Centaur front d. 50/34 x
13/29 is the gearing. She's used a Shimano 9sp 13/32 custom on tour
with that setup too.

Don't buy the front derailleur 'til you try it. You didn't need the
10 sp big ring either.

 

[Paul Kopit]

On 13 Feb 2006 10:02:42 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>They don't recommend it because there is a real difference in shift
>quality when you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and rear derailleurs.
>Campagnolo changed their rear derailleurs in 2001. Different angle of
>movement or something. If you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and
>derailleurs the shifting is not as great as if you don't mix them.
>That is not saying it is not good or does not work. Its just not as
>great. If you pay attention you can tell when it does not shift as
>quickly as it should. If you don't pay attention then you won't notice
>it. But the slight degradation is still there.

I contend that there is more difference in performance due to the wear
in the components that the incompatibility that you are referring to.
With a brand new, matched system, it is possible, with fine
adjustment, to get the click in the shifter to coincide with the
shift. A bit of wear in the system and that perfect point goes. If
you look at the holes in the spring carrier of a used shifter, you
will see that they are slightly enlarged and no longer perfectly
round. That will make as much difference as the so called
compatibility differences. Rear derailleur hangars are rarely
perfectly aligned either.

It isn't difficult to install Ergo shifters so they work properly.
Installing them so they work perfectly with minimum amount of cable
friction and precise shifts is zen like.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:24:42 -0800, mxd1007 wrote:

> 8 speed rear derailluer with 10 speed shifters? any adjustment needed
> to be made? Cool!!! that saves me more $$$$ but I'm wondering how
> come no one else "advocates" this on other bike boards like campyonly
> or brandford bike or sheldon brown(I think at least one of them
> mentioned you had to change the rear, not sure exactly who though).

Campy only is an advocacy group (and they are a bit odd in that sense).
Branford actually sells these things; their advice will usually require
that you buy something, just as the official Campy site would, and for
the same reason. I don't believe Sheldon recommended you change the rear
derailleur.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and
_`\(,_ | Excellence.
(_)/ (_) |

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:02:42 -0800, russellseaton1 wrote:

> They don't recommend it because there is a real difference in shift
> quality when you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and rear derailleurs.
> Campagnolo changed their rear derailleurs in 2001. Different angle of
> movement or something. If you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and
> derailleurs the shifting is not as great as if you don't mix them.

Have you actually tried this? I have, in both directions. I used an old
derailleur with 8 and 9-sped, and a new (2004) derailleur with old
shifters (after the old derailleur wore out). Shifting was just fine --
until the old derailleur wore out, that is.

> That is not saying it is not good or does not work. Its just not as
> great. If you pay attention you can tell when it does not shift as
> quickly as it should.

What is "as quickly as it should"? How are you measuring the time lag? I
just do not believe it exists; it's marketing hype designed to sell you
something you do not need.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

[email protected] wrote:
> 8 speed rear derailluer with 10 speed shifters? any adjustment needed
> to be made? Cool!!! that saves me more $$$$ but I'm wondering how
> come no one else "advocates" this on other bike boards like campyonly
> or brandford bike or sheldon brown(I think at least one of them
> mentioned you had to change the rear, not sure exactly who though).

Not sure abouit campyonly, they remain kinda an enigma in my eyes.
Branford wants to sell ya what they can and will make up all sorts of
BS in this regard(like most MO). I wonder if anybody has a wrench in
their hands there. Sheldon, great guy that he is, is an expert on
shimano and touring but doesn't, by his own admission, have a lot of
experience with Campagnolo. Andy Muzi and I have tried all these combos
and as retailers, wouldn't 'sell' something that doesn't work.

 

[[email protected]]

Paul Kopit wrote:
> On 13 Feb 2006 10:02:42 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >They don't recommend it because there is a real difference in shift
> >quality when you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and rear derailleurs.
> >Campagnolo changed their rear derailleurs in 2001. Different angle of
> >movement or something. If you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and
> >derailleurs the shifting is not as great as if you don't mix them.
> >That is not saying it is not good or does not work. Its just not as
> >great. If you pay attention you can tell when it does not shift as
> >quickly as it should. If you don't pay attention then you won't notice
> >it. But the slight degradation is still there.
>
> I contend that there is more difference in performance due to the wear
> in the components that the incompatibility that you are referring to.
> With a brand new, matched system, it is possible, with fine
> adjustment, to get the click in the shifter to coincide with the
> shift. A bit of wear in the system and that perfect point goes. If
> you look at the holes in the spring carrier of a used shifter, you
> will see that they are slightly enlarged and no longer perfectly
> round. That will make as much difference as the so called
> compatibility differences. Rear derailleur hangars are rarely
> perfectly aligned either.
>
> It isn't difficult to install Ergo shifters so they work properly.
> Installing them so they work perfectly with minimum amount of cable
> friction and precise shifts is zen like.

1998 Chorus short cage rear derailleur, 1998 Chorus front derailleur,
1998 Chorus Ergo shifters, 1998 Chorus 53-42 crankset, 1998 Chorus
102mm bottom bracket, 13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-28 Veloce chainrings,
Campagnolo 9 speed chain.

In 2002 changed rear derailleur to 2002 Centaur medium cage, changed
crankset to 2002 Centaur triple 52-42-30, changed bottom bracket to
111mm AC-H, changed front derailleur to Centaur triple. Same chain,
same cassette, same wheel, same 1998 Chorus Ergo shifters, same cables.
All of the parts that affect rear shifting, except the rear
derailleur, were identical.

During a week of Colorado mountain riding in 2002, I could tell the
rear shifts were not as quick and precise as they were the week before
I made the change. Nor as quick and precise as the next week when I
took the triple parts off and put back on the 1998 parts. A couple of
the shifts in the middle of the cassette were the most obvious slow
shifts. Had to make a choice, shifts on either end were good with the
middle slightly off, or make the middle OK with both ends slightly off.
That is to be expected since the newer rear derailleur does not have
the same angle of movement as the older rear derailleur. If two things
move in a straight line, starting at different angles of trajectory,
they will end up in different ending spots.

 

[[email protected]]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:02:42 -0800, russellseaton1 wrote:
>
> > They don't recommend it because there is a real difference in shift
> > quality when you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and rear derailleurs.
> > Campagnolo changed their rear derailleurs in 2001. Different angle of
> > movement or something. If you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and
> > derailleurs the shifting is not as great as if you don't mix them.
>
> Have you actually tried this?

See response to post above. I ride Campagnolo road bikes.

I have, in both directions. I used an old
> derailleur with 8 and 9-sped, and a new (2004) derailleur with old
> shifters (after the old derailleur wore out). Shifting was just fine --
> until the old derailleur wore out, that is.
>
> > That is not saying it is not good or does not work. Its just not as
> > great. If you pay attention you can tell when it does not shift as
> > quickly as it should.
>
> What is "as quickly as it should"? How are you measuring the time lag? I
> just do not believe it exists; it's marketing hype designed to sell you
> something you do not need.

You cannot tell when a bike is shifting as well as it used to? You
cannot tell when shifting has degraded? You cannot tell when a shift
is not happening as quickly as it should so you then adjust the cable
tension higher or lower? How do you adjust your rear derailleurs when
you set up a bike? Or do you only use friction shifters?

Seems a simple matter to compare shifting speed, precision with the old
components, the prior day, with the new components today. After
considerable adjusting and it still does not shift as precisely as the
day before, it tells me the new style rear derailleur is different.
And it continues this slight shifting degradation during the week of
usage. And then when replacing the new style rear derailleur with the
old style rear derailleur, the slight shifting degradation goes away.
Seems to me the different angle of movement on the rear derailleurs is
real and makes a difference. A very small difference. But a
difference none the less.


>
> --
>
> David L. Johnson
>
> __o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
> _`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
> (_)/ (_) |

 

[Sandy]

Dans le message de
news:[email protected],
[email protected] <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:02:42 -0800, russellseaton1 wrote:
>>
>>> They don't recommend it because there is a real difference in shift
>>> quality when you mix pre and post 2001 shifters and rear
>>> derailleurs. Campagnolo changed their rear derailleurs in 2001.
>>> Different angle of movement or something. If you mix pre and post
>>> 2001 shifters and derailleurs the shifting is not as great as if
>>> you don't mix them.
>>
>> Have you actually tried this?
>
> See response to post above. I ride Campagnolo road bikes.
>
> I have, in both directions. I used an old
>> derailleur with 8 and 9-sped, and a new (2004) derailleur with old
>> shifters (after the old derailleur wore out). Shifting was just
>> fine -- until the old derailleur wore out, that is.
>>
>>> That is not saying it is not good or does not work. Its just not as
>>> great. If you pay attention you can tell when it does not shift as
>>> quickly as it should.
>>
>> What is "as quickly as it should"? How are you measuring the time
>> lag? I just do not believe it exists; it's marketing hype designed
>> to sell you something you do not need.
>
> You cannot tell when a bike is shifting as well as it used to? You
> cannot tell when shifting has degraded? You cannot tell when a shift
> is not happening as quickly as it should so you then adjust the cable
> tension higher or lower? How do you adjust your rear derailleurs when
> you set up a bike? Or do you only use friction shifters?
>
> Seems a simple matter to compare shifting speed, precision with the
> old components, the prior day, with the new components today. After
> considerable adjusting and it still does not shift as precisely as the
> day before, it tells me the new style rear derailleur is different.
> And it continues this slight shifting degradation during the week of
> usage. And then when replacing the new style rear derailleur with the
> old style rear derailleur, the slight shifting degradation goes away.
> Seems to me the different angle of movement on the rear derailleurs is
> real and makes a difference. A very small difference. But a
> difference none the less.

Another brave hero in the ranks. but you must hide all this. It's just real
world experience, not suitable to the technical arguments that reign
supreme.
--
Not to forget ...

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm, denigration, snotty remarks,
indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that "you do the math", conceited
visions of a better world on wheels according to [insert NAME here].