Shimano 105 Drivetrain Upgrade

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by mgzrrally, Apr 27, 2010.

  1. mgzrrally

    mgzrrally New Member

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    .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P{padding:0px;}.ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}Hi,

    I was wondering whether anyone could give me some advice regarding what gear shifters would be most suitable for a Shimano 105 Black Rear Derailleur 10 Speed 5600? Also what other parts would you require to convert the rear derailleur and gear shifters to shimano 105. (the front derailleur and the chainrings are already shimano 105) Sorry just one more question, would this drivetrain work with a 9 speed cassette or is it limited to 10 speed.

    Ross
     
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  2. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Almost ALL Shimano rear derailleurs were designed to work with the prior generation components ...

    To use your 5600 rear derailleur as if it were a 9-speed, 5500 rear derailleur WITH a pair of 5500 shifters you would connect the rear derailleur cable UNDER THE HOOK (at 9 o'clock) in front of the anchor bolt instead of beneath it (at 6 o'clock).

    FYI. Knowing that Shimano rear derailleurs are backward compatible at least one generation (i.e., you can use a 10-speed rear derailleur as a 9-speed rear derailleur in the manner described above) I extrapolated that the normal connection on a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur should be equal to the hubbub.com connection at 3 o'clock (whatever?!?) and I subsequently replaced some of my previously hubbub'd 9-speed Shimano rear derailleur with a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleurs -- the shifters I use are 10-speed Campagnolo (non-QS) shifters + 9-speed Shimano cassettes ...

    I use 9-speed Shimano front derailleurs + 9-speed Shimano chains with the Campagnolo shifters. ANY chainrings are fine.

    So, I recommend that you buy a pair of non-QS, 10-speed Campagnolo shifters to use with your 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur to acheive 9-speed Shimano indexing -- the Campagnolo shifters will cost less, weigh less, AND (IMO) work better than a pair of Shimano shifters.
     
  3. mgzrrally

    mgzrrally New Member

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    Thanks for the info, however it sounds fairly complicated. If you have 10 speed gear shifters with a 9 speed cassette does it still work as smoothly as it would with the recommended 10 speed cassette? (Is it smooth on your bike?)
     
  4. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    It is not complicated ...

    Here is the hubbub connection:

    [​IMG]

    Hubbub Custom Bicycles > Articles & Opinions > Campagnolo Ergopower with Shimano 9-Speed

    And, yes, it works very well ... better than the 6500 shifters that I had been previously using. AND, the shifting is so good that I was (after some testing to find the limitations, if any) able to use an old, un-ramped AND un-pinned chainring and still have better shifting than when using ramped and pinned chainrings and Shimano shifters.

    The attached picture shows my OLMO with a 5603 (aka 5600 GS) rear derailleur (derailleur cable connected as it normally would be) + a 6500 Ultegra front derailleur + a 11-32 XT cassette + 9-speed Shimano chain ... the shifters are 10-speed Campagnolo Centaur (non-QS/pre-2007).
     
  5. Peter@vecchios

    [email protected] New Member

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  6. Peter@vecchios

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    Just get a sram or shimano 10s cogset and chain and bob's yer uncle. 10s STI won't shift a 9s cogset well at all.
     
  7. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Peter, either you need to buy either a ruler or a set of calipers OR Shimano has been sending you different rear derailleurs than the ones I have.

    As I've stated before, the 10-speed Shimano rear derailleurs are decidely different from the 9-speed Shimano (Road) rear derailleurs ...

    The pivots on the parallelogram on the 9-speed Shimano ROAD rear derailleurs (1997, and following) are 42mm apart.

    On the 10-speed Shimano ROAD rear derailleurs (will a 10-speed MTB ever make it to the marketplace?), the pivots are 38mm apart.

    The anchor point for the rear derailleur cable on the 8-/9-speed rear derailleurs is left-of-center (the "tongue" that holds the anchor bolt is basically centered) ...

    The anchor point for the rear derailleur cable on the 10-speed rear derailleur is about in the middle (the "tongue" that holds the anchor bolt is to the right-of-center).

    There are OTHER differences, but the core statement that "All shimano Rders since 1997 DA have the same dimensions so are compatible with any shimano shifter" is incorrect.

    I suspect that the incorrect attachment is working for you because of the superiority of Shimano's ramping AND I would guess that perhaps only 8-out-of-9 cogs are actually being engaged when a 9-speed Shimano shifter + 10-speed rear derailleur are mated with a 9-speed Shimano cassette.
     
  8. Peter@vecchios

    [email protected] New Member

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    Nope, not that at all. Gent comes in with a toasted RD, say a shimano 8s or 9s with STI with those speeds, like an old 105 or ultegra and the RD is dead. Out comes a 105, 10s, 5600 RD, install, attach cable and it shifts perfectly. No problems with not getting to all cogs or overshift or anything else. Same for somebody that has a 8s road double, STI and wants to put on a big MTB cogset ike a 12-32, 8s..use a 9s MTB RD, like XT or Deore, install, hook cable up normally and it works just great. In the 25 years I have been doing this, from 7s to 8s(including DA, 7400/8s) thru 9s and now to 10s, I have only used the 'alternative' cable route gig when using 7400 STI(DA) and a none DA RD or when using 7700/6500 9s STI and a 7400 RD..

    Otherwise anybody with a 9s system and kills a RD would have to 'upgrade' shifters to 10s, etc and that's just not the case.

    Since I know you aren't going to believe me, from Sheldon Brown's pages(may he rest peacefully)-

    "

    • "Road" vs "Mountain" Derailers

      Similarly, derailers come in long-cage and short-cage versions. The short cage ("road") ones only work with narrow range ("road") cassettes, because they don't have enough capacity to take up chain slack for use with a wide-range cassette. Short-cage derailers are also limited in terms of the largest rear sprocket that they can clear without having the jockey pulley rub on the sprocket. Long-cage derailers have greater takeup capacity, and work with all types of cassettes. Long-cage derailers are commonly called "mountain" derailers currently, though in the past, this style of derailer was known as a "touring" derailer. (The marketeers retired the use of "touring" as a buzzword in the late '80s when mountain bikes became the hot item.)
      Note, also that rear derailers do not care how many gears you have. You do not need to have a so-called "10-speed" derailer to use a 10-speed cassette. This is true of all Shimano derailers with the exception of 1996 and earlier (pre-9-speed) Dura-Ace units.
     
  9. Solanog

    Solanog New Member

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    I'm using a Shimano 600 RD in an 8 speed 105 setup without any issues, this same RD was in a 5spd setup working perfectly, 5sp was not indexed so no issues. I'm quite sure I can use it with the 10 speed Ultegra as well as I can use the 10spd Ultegra with the 8sp 105.
     
  10. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Well, I do have a great deal of respect for the encyclopedic knowledge about cycling equipment which Sheldon Brown had AND shared with all of us ...

    BUT, I know of at least three instances where he was either wrong or ill informed (only 3-out-of-thousands is a pretty good percentage) ... his knowledge was not infallible.

    What's the link for the particular excerpt?

    Perhaps you want to tell me that an 8-speed Campagnolo rear derailleur can also be used as a substitute for a 9-/10-/11-speed Campagnolo rear derailleur.

    Since I still have a pair of 9-speed Shimano shifters floating around here, somewhere, one of these days I'll mate the right shifter to a 10-speed Shimano rear derailleur to empirically ascertain how a rear derailleur with DIFFERENT geometry can generate the same indexing, or not ...

    To be continued!?!
     
  11. Peter@vecchios

    [email protected] New Member

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    Not with me...I'm tapping out but first. I just installed a 2010 Centaur RD on a 8s ERGO system from about 1996 and yep, works great. I have also installed 10s ERGO using a 8s RD, new and yep...that works too.

    But if you doubt Sheldon, then I'm sure you will doubt me..oh well, I'll survive.

    I'm out....
     
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