Shimano...7 or 8 speed best?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Msa, Feb 27, 2004.

  1. Msa

    Msa Guest

    With the aid of help from this group earlier this week I stripped out my 7 speed Shimano hub for
    servicing. The freehub was in a pretty bad state and there was bad pitting on the cones and cups. I
    replaced the bearings and greased anyway, but the wheel needs replacing, along with the cassette
    which is on it's way out as well.

    My question is this...

    I want to keep the spending down to a minimum and I have been offered a brand new rear wheel which
    is 8 speed Shimano compatible (not a shimano hub). I'm quite happy putting a 130mm hub into a 126mm
    frame spacing (steel frame) but will I be able to use a new 8 speed cassette, bearing in mind I only
    have 7 speed down tube shifters (I have no problem only using 7 of the 8 cogs).

    This wheel is being offered to me for £20 (approx $38). I can get a 7 speed wheel at another shop
    for £45 (approx $87) which is about the going rate for a basic no frill wheel.

    Will the 8spd cassette/wheel combo work with 7 speed down tube shifters on a 126mm spacing, or
    should I pay the full price for the 7 speed?

    I'd rather choose the cheaper option, but not if it will not work efficiently.

    Thanks in advance.

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may
    have occurred during transmission
     
    Tags:


  2. Dan Daniel

    Dan Daniel Guest

    On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:27:39 -0000, MSA <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >With the aid of help from this group earlier this week I stripped out my 7 speed Shimano hub for
    >servicing. The freehub was in a pretty bad state and there was bad pitting on the cones and cups. I
    >replaced the bearings and greased anyway, but the wheel needs replacing, along with the cassette
    >which is on it's way out as well.
    >
    >My question is this...
    >
    >I want to keep the spending down to a minimum and I have been offered a brand new rear wheel which
    >is 8 speed Shimano compatible (not a shimano hub). I'm quite happy putting a 130mm hub into a 126mm
    >frame spacing (steel frame) but will I be able to use a new 8 speed cassette, bearing in mind I
    >only have 7 speed down tube shifters (I have no problem only using 7 of the 8 cogs).
    >
    >This wheel is being offered to me for £20 (approx $38). I can get a 7 speed wheel at another shop
    >for £45 (approx $87) which is about the going rate for a basic no frill wheel.
    >
    >Will the 8spd cassette/wheel combo work with 7 speed down tube shifters on a 126mm spacing, or
    >should I pay the full price for the 7 speed?
    >
    >I'd rather choose the cheaper option, but not if it will not work efficiently.
    >
    >Thanks in advance.

    The 8 speed cassette will not index with the 7 speed downtube shifters. You can use it in
    friction mode.

    You can put a 7 speed cassette on an eight speed hub. You will need a spacer to move the cassette
    out so that the lockring will actually be pushing against the cassette.

    If the cup on the left hand side of the hub is ok, you can get new cones and a new 7 speed freehub
    body and keep using the present wheel. I did this recently and only had to swap the freehub dust cap
    from the old to the new body.

    Or you can add an 8 speed freehub body and new cones. In either case
    you will need to check that the new cones mate with the old/new parts.

    You might look over-

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html

    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#transplant

    All in all, the 7 speed wheel will be the simplest option, although the most expensive. Or 8 speed
    with a spacer for a 7 speed cassette. Beyond that, you are heading towards either new parts on the
    existing hub (maybe the cheapest but hardest to locate), friction shifting (just swap the wheel and
    you're on your way), or new shifters as well as a new wheel (can we say 'new drive train'? :)

    Have you factored in a new chain? If the existing cassette and hub is shot, the odds are your
    present chain will not mate with a new cassette.
     
  3. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:27:39 -0000, MSA <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >With the aid of help from this group earlier this week I stripped out my 7 speed Shimano hub for
    > >servicing. The freehub was in a pretty bad state and there was bad pitting on the cones and cups.
    > >I replaced the bearings and greased anyway, but the wheel needs replacing, along with the
    > >cassette which is on it's way out as well.
    > >
    > >My question is this...
    > >
    > >I want to keep the spending down to a minimum and I have been offered a brand new rear wheel
    > >which is 8 speed Shimano compatible (not a shimano hub). I'm quite happy putting a 130mm hub into
    > >a 126mm frame spacing (steel frame) but will I be able to use a new 8 speed cassette, bearing in
    > >mind I only have 7 speed down tube shifters (I have no problem only using 7 of the 8 cogs).
    > >
    > >This wheel is being offered to me for £20 (approx $38). I can get a 7 speed wheel at another shop
    > >for £45 (approx $87) which is about the going rate for a basic no frill wheel.
    > >
    > >Will the 8spd cassette/wheel combo work with 7 speed down tube shifters on a 126mm spacing, or
    > >should I pay the full price for the 7 speed?
    > >
    > >I'd rather choose the cheaper option, but not if it will not work efficiently.
    > >
    > >Thanks in advance.
    >
    >
    > The 8 speed cassette will not index with the 7 speed downtube shifters. You can use it in
    > friction mode.
    >
    > You can put a 7 speed cassette on an eight speed hub. You will need a spacer to move the cassette
    > out so that the lockring will actually be pushing against the cassette.
    >
    > If the cup on the left hand side of the hub is ok, you can get new cones and a new 7 speed freehub
    > body and keep using the present wheel. I did this recently and only had to swap the freehub dust
    > cap from the old to the new body.
    >
    > Or you can add an 8 speed freehub body and new cones. In either case
    > you will need to check that the new cones mate with the old/new parts.
    >
    > You might look over-
    >
    > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html
    >

    Thanks for the info. I guess taking into account that the 8 speed wheel will also need redishing I
    think the best option will be to go with a 7 speed. I had taken into account the new chain and
    cassette, that's why I really didn't want to spend too much (it's only my commuter/hack bike). The
    current wheel is trashed, it literally fell apart 2 miles from home tonight on my 24 mile commute. I
    will spend a few days looking around for something a little cheaper, if not buy the £45 one.

    Thanks for replying so soon.

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may
    have occurred during transmission
     
  4. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:27:39 -0000, MSA <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >With the aid of help from this group earlier this week I stripped out my 7 speed Shimano hub for
    > >servicing. The freehub was in a pretty bad state and there was bad pitting on the cones and cups.
    > >I replaced the bearings and greased anyway, but the wheel needs replacing, along with the
    > >cassette which is on it's way out as well.
    > >
    > >My question is this...
    > >
    > >I want to keep the spending down to a minimum and I have been offered a brand new rear wheel
    > >which is 8 speed Shimano compatible (not a shimano hub). I'm quite happy putting a 130mm hub into
    > >a 126mm frame spacing (steel frame) but will I be able to use a new 8 speed cassette, bearing in
    > >mind I only have 7 speed down tube shifters (I have no problem only using 7 of the 8 cogs).
    > >
    > >This wheel is being offered to me for £20 (approx $38). I can get a 7 speed wheel at another shop
    > >for £45 (approx $87) which is about the going rate for a basic no frill wheel.
    > >
    > >Will the 8spd cassette/wheel combo work with 7 speed down tube shifters on a 126mm spacing, or
    > >should I pay the full price for the 7 speed?
    > >
    > >I'd rather choose the cheaper option, but not if it will not work efficiently.
    > >
    > >Thanks in advance.
    >
    >
    > The 8 speed cassette will not index with the 7 speed downtube shifters. You can use it in
    > friction mode.
    >
    > You can put a 7 speed cassette on an eight speed hub. You will need a spacer to move the cassette
    > out so that the lockring will actually be pushing against the cassette.
    >
    > If the cup on the left hand side of the hub is ok, you can get new cones and a new 7 speed freehub
    > body and keep using the present wheel. I did this recently and only had to swap the freehub dust
    > cap from the old to the new body.
    >
    > Or you can add an 8 speed freehub body and new cones. In either case
    > you will need to check that the new cones mate with the old/new parts.
    >
    > You might look over-
    >
    > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html
    >

    Thanks for the info. I guess taking into account that the 8 speed wheel will also need redishing I
    think the best option will be to go with a 7 speed. I had taken into account the new chain and
    cassette, that's why I really didn't want to spend too much (it's only my commuter/hack bike). The
    current wheel is trashed, it literally fell apart 2 miles from home tonight on my 24 mile commute. I
    will spend a few days looking around for something a little cheaper, if not buy the £45 one.

    Thanks for replying so soon.

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may
    have occurred during transmission
     
  5. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    >This wheel is being offered to me for £20 (approx $38). I can get a 7 speed wheel at another shop
    >for £45 (approx $87) which is about the going rate for a basic no frill wheel. Will the 8spd
    >cassette/wheel combo work with 7 speed down tube shifters on a 126mm spacing, or should I pay the
    >full price for the 7 speed? I'd rather choose the cheaper option, but not if it will not work
    >efficiently.

    I would get the less expensive wheel and run the shifters in friction mode. Then the number speeds
    is meaningless. If you must have indexing, save the spacers from the 7 spd cassette. YOu might need
    them to get the 8spd cassette to index properly.
    -------------
    Alex
     
  6. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    >Thanks for the info. I guess taking into account that the 8 speed wheel will also need redishing I
    >think the best option will be to go with a 7 speed.

    Why would the 8spd wheel need re-dishing? You said you were going to use the 130mm hub in your 126mm
    frame, which is not a big deal. So there is not need to re-dish the wheel. The only reason why you
    might need to re-dish the wheel is if you were going to remove spacers to get the new wheel to fit
    your frame without spreading the stays. I would not do this. I would spread the stays.

    >I had taken into account the new chain and cassette, that's why I really didn't want to spend too
    >much (it's only my commuter/hack bike). The current wheel is trashed, it literally fell apart 2
    >miles from home tonight on my 24 mile commute. I will spend a few days looking around for something
    >a little cheaper, if not buy the £45 one.

    Since it is a hack bike, look into getting used. You should be able to find nice used 8spd wheels
    pretty cheap. Especially since 10spd is just out for this year and you know a bunch of folks are
    going to run out and buy 10spd to upgrade their bikes.
    -------------
    Alex
     
  7. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    You can get 8 speed levers for less than a tenner on eBay UK from davecyclesence, he is the prop. of
    Cyclesense in Tadcaster.
     
  8. Dvt

    Dvt Guest

    Alex Rodriguez wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    >
    >>This wheel is being offered to me for £20 (approx $38). I can get a 7 speed wheel at another shop
    >>for £45 (approx $87) which is about the going rate for a basic no frill wheel. Will the 8spd
    >>cassette/wheel combo work with 7 speed down tube shifters on a 126mm spacing, or should I pay the
    >>full price for the 7 speed? I'd rather choose the cheaper option, but not if it will not work
    >>efficiently.
    >
    >
    > I would get the less expensive wheel and run the shifters in friction mode. Then the number speeds
    > is meaningless. If you must have indexing, save the spacers from the 7 spd cassette. YOu might
    > need them to get the 8spd cassette to index properly.

    Another link to Sheldon: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#spacing.

    See that 7-speed Shimano comes in 2 flavors: HG & IG. In either case, your shifter will index the
    derailler 5mm left or right with each shift. If you can combine your old spacers with the new
    cassette and spacers to get an *average* spacing of 5mm, you should be able to index. The derailler
    can take up a bit of slop, so not every cog has to be 5mm from the next.

    So if you have 7-sp IG, you can just use the old spacers (3.15mm) and new cogs (1.8mm) to get 4.95mm
    per cog. If you have 7-sp HG, and a few of the cogs are still useable, you can put 2-3 old cogs
    (2.35mm), 4-5 new cogs (1.8mm), and use the new 3mm spacers. The old and new cogs might not have
    matching ramps so your shifting might suffer slightly, but you probably won't even notice. In either
    case, you'll probably need an extra spacer to take up the space available on the freehub.

    --
    Dave dvt at psu dot edu
     
  9. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    If the wheel is an 8 speed it should not need redishing. Adding spacers to a 7 speed to make it wide
    enough for an 8 cassette would. As I said in my other reply 8 speed levers are pretty cheap, you
    could always use 7 speed levers on friction until you could get 8s.
     
  10. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > >This wheel is being offered to me for £20 (approx $38). I can get a 7 speed wheel at another shop
    > >for £45 (approx $87) which is about the going rate for a basic no frill wheel. Will the 8spd
    > >cassette/wheel combo work with 7 speed down tube shifters on a 126mm spacing, or should I pay the
    > >full price for the 7 speed? I'd rather choose the cheaper option, but not if it will not work
    > >efficiently.
    >
    > I would get the less expensive wheel and run the shifters in friction mode. Then the number speeds
    > is meaningless. If you must have indexing, save the spacers from the 7 spd cassette. YOu might
    > need them to get the 8spd cassette to index properly.
    > -------------
    > Alex
    >
    >
    >

    Indexing really isn't a problem, let's face it, when your regular bike has Ergo's and then you ride
    down-tubes you tend to shift a lot less often!

    Sounds as if the 8 speed 130mm wheel with a new 8 speed cassette on friction is the way to go.

    As long as the wheel doesn't offset and protrude from my fenders, and I can get the 130 into my
    126mm frame. See dishing reply in previous post.

    Thanks for your help on this.

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may
    have occurred during transmission
     
  11. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > >Thanks for the info. I guess taking into account that the 8 speed wheel will also need redishing
    > >I think the best option will be to go with a 7 speed.
    >
    > Why would the 8spd wheel need re-dishing? You said you were going to use the 130mm hub in your
    > 126mm frame, which is not a big deal. So there is not need to re-dish the wheel. The only
    > reason why you might need to re-dish the wheel is if you were going to remove spacers to get
    > the new wheel to fit your frame without spreading the stays. I would not do this. I would
    > spread the stays.
    >

    I thought that putting a 130mm hub into a 126mm spacing would position the rear wheel 4mm to the
    left (taking into account the extra width of the freehub?

    Maybe I'm reading Sheldon's page wrong when he says:

    "If you do re-space your hub, you'll also need to re-dish your wheel, because the extra space will
    all be added on the right side by installing the wider Freehub body. You'll need to tighten spokes
    on the right, possibly also loosen some on the left, to move the rim 2 mm to the right so that it
    will once again be centered in the frame."

    Perhaps I'm not understanding the "re-space your hub"?

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may
    have occurred during transmission
     
  12. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    MSA wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >>
    >>> Thanks for the info. I guess taking into account that the 8 speed wheel will also need redishing
    >>> I think the best option will be to go with a 7 speed.
    >>
    >> Why would the 8spd wheel need re-dishing? You said you were going to use the 130mm hub in your
    >> 126mm frame, which is not a big deal. So there is not need to re-dish the wheel. The only
    >> reason why you might need to re-dish the wheel is if you were going to remove spacers to get
    >> the new wheel to fit your frame without spreading the stays. I would not do this. I would
    >> spread the stays.
    >>
    >
    > I thought that putting a 130mm hub into a 126mm spacing would position the rear wheel 4mm to the
    > left (taking into account the extra width of the freehub?
    >
    > Maybe I'm reading Sheldon's page wrong when he says:
    >
    > "If you do re-space your hub, you'll also need to re-dish your wheel, because the extra space will
    > all be added on the right side by installing the wider Freehub body. You'll need to tighten spokes
    > on the right, possibly also loosen some on the left, to move the rim 2 mm to the right so that it
    > will once again be centered in the frame."
    >
    > Perhaps I'm not understanding the "re-space your hub"?

    Your 8 speed wheel should be built (dished) for 130mm spacing. A 7 speed is dished for 126 so
    respacing will a 7 by adding 4mm on one side will cause it to be out. Placing a 8 speed freehub on a
    wheel built for 7 speed means the wheel moves to the left by 4mm. You will have a 8 speed wheel so
    you will not be dicking around with the wheel, just the frame
     
  13. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > MSA wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > >> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > >>
    > >>> Thanks for the info. I guess taking into account that the 8 speed wheel will also need
    > >>> redishing I think the best option will be to go with a 7 speed.
    > >>
    > >> Why would the 8spd wheel need re-dishing? You said you were going to use the 130mm hub in your
    > >> 126mm frame, which is not a big deal. So there is not need to re-dish the wheel. The only
    > >> reason why you might need to re-dish the wheel is if you were going to remove spacers to get
    > >> the new wheel to fit your frame without spreading the stays. I would not do this. I would
    > >> spread the stays.
    > >>
    > >
    > > I thought that putting a 130mm hub into a 126mm spacing would position the rear wheel 4mm to the
    > > left (taking into account the extra width of the freehub?
    > >
    > > Maybe I'm reading Sheldon's page wrong when he says:
    > >
    > > "If you do re-space your hub, you'll also need to re-dish your wheel, because the extra space
    > > will all be added on the right side by installing the wider Freehub body. You'll need to tighten
    > > spokes on the right, possibly also loosen some on the left, to move the rim 2 mm to the right so
    > > that it will once again be centered in the frame."
    > >
    > > Perhaps I'm not understanding the "re-space your hub"?
    >
    > Your 8 speed wheel should be built (dished) for 130mm spacing. A 7 speed is dished for 126 so
    > respacing will a 7 by adding 4mm on one side will cause it to be out. Placing a 8 speed freehub on
    > a wheel built for 7 speed means the wheel moves to the left by 4mm. You will have a 8 speed wheel
    > so you will not be dicking around with the wheel, just the frame
    >
    >
    >

    Aha, now I understand! I'm not stupid, honest :)

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may
    have occurred during transmission
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >> >Thanks for the info. I guess taking into account that the 8 speed wheel will also need redishing
    >> >I think the best option will be to go with a 7 speed.
    >> Why would the 8spd wheel need re-dishing? You said you were going to use the 130mm hub in your
    >> 126mm frame, which is not a big deal. So there is not need to re-dish the wheel. The only
    >> reason why you might need to re-dish the wheel is if you were going to remove spacers to get
    >> the new wheel to fit your frame without spreading the stays. I would not do this. I would
    >> spread the stays.
    >I thought that putting a 130mm hub into a 126mm spacing would position the rear wheel 4mm to the
    >left (taking into account the extra width of the freehub? Maybe I'm reading Sheldon's page wrong
    >when he says: "If you do re-space your hub, you'll also need to re-dish your wheel, because the
    >extra space will all be added on the right side by installing the wider Freehub body. You'll need
    >to tighten spokes on the right, possibly also loosen some on the left, to move the rim 2 mm to the
    >right so that it will once again be centered in the frame."
    >
    >Perhaps I'm not understanding the "re-space your hub"?

    I believe the section you quote from Sheldon's page is from a more complex procedure than what you
    are doing. It mentions installing a wider freehub body, that is not what you are doing. You are just
    going to use the 130mm hub in your 126mm frame, there is no need to re-dish.
    -----------------
    Alex
     
  15. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:27:39 -0000, MSA <[email protected]>
    may have said:

    >I want to keep the spending down to a minimum and I have been offered a brand new rear wheel which
    >is 8 speed Shimano compatible (not a shimano hub). I'm quite happy putting a 130mm hub into a 126mm
    >frame spacing (steel frame) but will I be able to use a new 8 speed cassette, bearing in mind I
    >only have 7 speed down tube shifters (I have no problem only using 7 of the 8 cogs).

    With adjustment of the rear der, it's very likely that you'll be able to use all 8. There is no
    objection to shooting for 7 if that's all you want to use, though, and it's certainly possible
    to do that.

    >This wheel is being offered to me for £20 (approx $38). I can get a 7 speed wheel at another shop
    >for £45 (approx $87) which is about the going rate for a basic no frill wheel.

    Buy the 8, no question.

    >Will the 8spd cassette/wheel combo work with 7 speed down tube shifters on a 126mm spacing, or
    >should I pay the full price for the 7 speed?
    >
    >I'd rather choose the cheaper option, but not if it will not work efficiently.

    Go for the savings and smile about the upgrade that you'll achieve in the bargain.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  16. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    One revision; you'll have to swap to friction mode on the shifters to get all 8 speeds on the
    new cassette.

    Alternately, you could use the old 7sp cassette on the new wheel until you get a chance to find an
    8sp indexing shifter to go with the 8sp cassette; add a 4.5mm shim behind the 7 if you're going to
    go this route.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  17. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Werehatrack wrote:
    > One revision; you'll have to swap to friction mode on the shifters to get all 8 speeds on the new
    > cassette.

    If the shifters work like the 6-speed Shimano 105 indexed DT levers I used (???), extra positions
    can be obtained, in indexed mode, simply by shoving the lever down beyond the bottom click where it
    then acts as a friction lever. You never notice the levers can do this normally because of the
    derailleur limit screw. I used mine with an 8-speed Campag cassette for a short while.

    Worth a try though even though the derailleur would travel 5.0mm per click instead of the
    required 4.8mm.

    ~PB
     
  18. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    MSA wrote:
    >
    > Aha, now I understand! I'm not stupid, honest :)

    Dave.cyclesense has some RX100 8 speed DT levers on eBay.uk this morning starting at £5 number is
    3663819951
     
  19. Msa

    Msa Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > MSA wrote:
    > >
    > > Aha, now I understand! I'm not stupid, honest :)
    >
    > Dave.cyclesense has some RX100 8 speed DT levers on eBay.uk this morning starting at £5 number is
    > 3663819951
    >
    >
    >
    >

    Thanks for the heads up. I'll try to source a seven speed over the next few days, if not I'll go
    with the 8 and get some shifters. Guess my derailleur will handle 8 once I've adjusted the stops?

    Cheers, you have been very helpful. I will report back with the outcome.

    --
    Mark (MSA) This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling of contents may
    have occurred during transmission
     
  20. MSeries

    MSeries Guest

    MSA wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >> MSA wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Aha, now I understand! I'm not stupid, honest :)
    >>
    >> Dave.cyclesense has some RX100 8 speed DT levers on eBay.uk this morning starting at £5 number is
    >> 3663819951
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >
    > Thanks for the heads up. I'll try to source a seven speed over the next few days, if not I'll go
    > with the 8 and get some shifters. Guess my derailleur will handle 8 once I've adjusted the stops?
    >
    > Cheers, you have been very helpful. I will report back with the outcome.

    Your mech should be OK.
     
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