shimano shifts 105/ultegra/durace

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by seibal.meibal, Jul 17, 2009.

  1. seibal.meibal

    seibal.meibal New Member

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    Hi, everybody! I think switching from 105 to ultegra/dura ace components for 3-4 rides a week, purely amateur. is it sensible to replace the 105 - looking for quality in riding, costs and weight not an issue? thanks!
     
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  2. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    You probably will NOT notice a difference going from 105 to Ultegra or DA from within the same generation of components.

    While you might notice a difference if you were using DA or Ultegra & downgraded to 105, it would be small, and most likely the difference would be the result of how well the components were installed & lubed.

    If you are planning on upgrading to the latest-and-greatest generation of Shimano components, then there are some differences, but the differences are generational & when the next 105 group is available, the difference will probably be even smaller than in past generations.
     
  3. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Aside from weight, there's very little that separates 105 from Ultegra and Dura Ace. There was some idjit that claimed 105.....and maybe Ultegra....have shifting problems under load, but no one took him seriously. He had absolutely zero proof and only provided hand waving.

    If you want the hidden cable look, then you need Dura Ace 7900, but keep in mind that there are reports in media and by some riders that the shifting with 7900 isn't as nice as it was with Dura Ace 7800. 7900 also brings to bear a change in brifter shape, which people do seem to like.

    The groups do have differing colors, if that's important.
     
  4. catlike

    catlike New Member

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    For hidden cables you may consider Ultegra 6700 too
     
  5. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Darn! You must be talking about me ...

    And, I thought you were trying to be my new BFF! After all, you finally echoed my observation that a person should opt for a laterally stiffer wheel than one that isn't when you were giving one of your recommendations ...

    Alas, you chose to use this thread to again spew some of your piss (what? did you feel a need to keep-in-practice by making an OT remark ... or, should the Forum reader presume that you could not understand my reply to the OP?) ... or, was it just some inadvertant leakage which your Depends didn't catch?

    I thought the matter of the older, Shimano shifters having a problem downshifting (and, apparently upshifting, too!) at times when under load was finally settled when dhk2 all-but-admitted that the reason he rarely shifted under load was because when he feels resistance during a shift, he backs off:
    Certainly do have a problem shifting the chainrings under heavy load. When "popping" the FD for a shift down to a smaller ring, either nothing happens or the chain tends to drop to the inside, or I feel resistance and hear noise when pushing in the lever so I quit the attempt and just grind up the hill without the shift.
    Of course, shifting the chain to a smaller chainring has been the common work-around for the rear shifter's downshifting deficiency when the drivetrain is under load, but I think that a greater problem with Shimano shifters when trying to move to a smaller chainring is dropping the chain rather than having the shift balk ...

    In the grand scheme of things, what matters is that yet another person has begun to shed his denial that a problem exists with Shimano's shifters!

    ___​


    As I have stated numerous times, the Campagnolo shifter not only handles downshifting onto larger cogs without any effort, but I was able to test -- and, subsequently use -- older, thin-by-comparison, un-ramped/-pinned 7-and-8-speed chainrings and achieve better shifts than with an Ultegra 6500/6501 shifter & Shimano Ultegra 6500 chainrings + other Shimano 6500/03 components when using either 6500 or 6503 front derailleur & a 9-speed Shimano chain. Campagnolo shifters work smoothly & reliably in either direction, front or rear ... and, I'm using Shimano derailleurs & old, random chainrings (okay, some are old, thin DA rings).

    I have some Campagnolo 10-speed chainrings -- contrary to what dhk2 might wish to think, I have no doubt that a Campagnolo crank & chainrings would probably be balky if someone were to try to use it with some Shimano shifters.

    As I've stated before, Shimano's DA & Ultegra chainrings have the best ramping-and-pinning; but, that ramping-and-pinning is Shimano's kluge to compensate for the STI's unintended shifting deficiency ...

    Pre-2009 Campagnolo shifters do not have a problem moving the chain to either a smaller or larger chainring OR a larger or smaller cog regardless of the load on the drivetrain OR the quality of the chainrings, but the same cannot be said for Shimano shifters ...

    ___​

    If you (alienator) had ever actually ridden a a bike with an older generation of Shimano shifters somewhere besides Fairview's parking lot (presuming they have one) or for more than a few flat miles, then you would probably echo what dhk2 finally conceded with regard to how he uses his Dura Ace shifters AND his limited expectation of when & how they should shift!!

    Short of using Shimano shifters for a moderately extended period of time (e.g., one month, or longer), why don't you (alienator) borrow a bike which has Shimano shifters (preferably, pre-6600, but supposedly the design of the mechanism wasn't changed from the original design) from Fairview (that's the name of the shop you go to, isn't it?) for at least one ride up to the top of Mount Lemon (that's one of your normal rides, isn't it?) and then report back after you've actually tried to shift a Shimano shifter several times when the drivetrain is under load?

    Of course, I think you should take that ride to the top of the mountain more than once with some Shimano shifters ...

    Of course, rather than subject a pair of Shimano shifters to an extended, real world test, it appears (based on one of your earlier statements) that it is easier for you to continue on with your earlier presumption that there is nothing wrong with Shimano's STI shifters because Pros use them ...

    Puh-leeze ...

    Pro riders use what their sponsors provide; and, the work-arounds for Shimano's shifting deficiencies have been documented elsewhere by others ... so, to presume that a problem doesn't manifest itself with Shimano shifters while shifting under load suggests that you have very selective comprehension.
     
  6. kdelong

    kdelong Well-Known Member

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    Alfeng, I usually agree with you or at least respect your opinion , but I have to take exception with you in this matter. I am a long time rider of Shimano and I have never had a problem with shifting under load, neither up nor down. Nearly all of the groups that I have ridden extensively have been pre-6600, including the 105-5600 series, 105-1050 series, and 600-6207 series. These are not exactly top-end component groups so I would expect them to be more problematic than Ultegra or DA. And in case you are thinking that they did not have sufficient load to cause a problem, the 105-5600 drivetrain was used in the 2005 Assault on Mt. Mitchell, and I was up shifting and down shifting like crazy with no problems through the last four miles. All of the others have made trips up and down the Blue Ridge Parkway which has some of the most magnificient climbs east of the Mississippi River.

    Now I don't know what has been published on this or in other forums concerning alleged problems with Shimano shifting under load, but my own experiences lead me to believe that anything that they have to say on the matter is probably either the result of pure bad luck or is intentionally fictitious.
     
  7. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    We often do some things so instinctively that we wonder why anyone ever has/had a problem replicating our actions ... friction shifting on a set of downtube shifters is one example that comes to mind ...

    So, the precision you find in Shimano's shifters may be a consequence of your unconsciously unloading the drivetrain for a brief moment just prior to shifting.

    Whether-or-not THAT is the case or 'I' and some others are just unlucky, the fact of the matter is that some of us have experienced balky shifting with Shimano's shifters.

    So, while I can't speak to the possibly fictitious nature of other people's observations with regard to Shimano's shifting, I can tell you that my empirical observation (both my first hand experience + my direct observation of some other riders who still ride Shimano who have momentary shifting problems in the middle of a climb) is clearly different from that you and some others have had ... and, obviously/fortunately the balky shifting may not be something that happens when under load for everyone BECAUSE (other than their shifters) I love Shimano components & the Shimano Corporation -- for all the negative things some people have to say about Shimano, I think Shimano has done more for cycling than any other corporation in the past 30 years.
    FWIW. I want to say that it was Lennard Zinn who recently (this calendar year) described the process of momentarily accelerating & then momentarily unloading the drivetrain prior to downshifting to prevent a balky shift when he was replying to someone's query in VeloNews, but it may certainly have been someone else in another venue.
    With the presumption that the respective drivetrains are optimally adjusted for their particular indexing, while the balky shifting may be only 1-in-100 (or-less/or-more) shifts when under load with a Shimano shifter, I will suggest that the frequency of achieving a comparable, balky shift with a pre-2009 Campagnolo shifter is less than 1-in-1,000,000 shifts, if ever ...

    On one occasion when going up a fairly steep incline, as I crawled past a friend who had dismounted and was walking her Shimano Ultegra (6503) equipped bike (yes, I had been behind & was trying to catch up), I showed her my belief-and-trust in the reliability of Campagnolo's shifting when under load as I demonstrated that I was able to downshift onto my wussy 32t bailout cog [I use XTR rear derailleurs] despite going barely faster than a walking speed under a fairly heavy load ... I don't think that particular shift could be executed with a Shimano ROAD shifter & non-Rapid Rise derailleur at that slow a speed on a similar incline.

    Despite the fact that I have lacked the motivation to test my hypothesis that a Rapid Rise rear derailleur will all-but-eliminate the problem for those amongst us for whom the shifting hasn't been as flawless, I will make that test at some future point in time!

    AND/OR, if any future generation of Shimano ROAD shifters employs a Rapid Rise (presumably, Shadow-based) rear derailleur as I have suggested will happen to mitigate 'my' perceived shifting deficiency with Shimano's ROAD shifters, then you'll have the opportunity to possibly say "Damn, I guess alfeng was right."

    In the meantime, you should disagree with me whenever your first hand experience differs as it adds to the knowlege base ...
     
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