Shimano Ultegra 9-10spd upgrade problem.



A

Axeman

Guest
Heres one for you helpful techheads out there.

I have just done partial upgrade from Ultegra 9spd to 10spd on my road
bike (encouraged by a crash that wrecked my 9speed shifters among other
things). So I have changed the minimum I thought required to go to
Ultegra 10spd- shifters, rear derailler, cassette and 10spd chain.

The problem is the new 10spd chain does not like my Ultegra 9spd double
crankset. I am having problems shifting up to the large chainring .
Instead of shifting smoothly onto the large chainring, the chain seems
to ride on top of the chain ring teeth momentarily before meshing, and
sometimes as a result the chain get thrown of the crank completely. As
you can imagine this is very unsettling an potentially very dangerous!

Thinking that it was my front derailler adjustment that was the
problem, I spent much time readjusting the front derailler with no
success. So I gave up and took the bike to my helpful LBS, who also had
a crack at readjusting the derailler. They were also unable to fix the
problem.

So the LBS is telling me that it is the incompatability between the
10spd chain and 9spd crank that is causing the problem. Solution- buy a
new 10spd crank. My existing 9spd crank and chainrings are low mileage
and are in excellent condition.

So what gives here? I know Shimano say's these parts are incompatible,
but I thought this was just BS to trick you into buying more parts. I
was under the impression, and this has been supported by Sheldon Browns
website, that there would be no problem running a 10spd chain on a 9spd
crank.

So can anyone here offer a solution, before I spend a bunch of $$$
buying a new crank that I do not need?

Thanks.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Axeman wrote:
> Heres one for you helpful techheads out there.
>
> I have just done partial upgrade from Ultegra 9spd to 10spd on my road
> bike (encouraged by a crash that wrecked my 9speed shifters among other
> things). So I have changed the minimum I thought required to go to
> Ultegra 10spd- shifters, rear derailler, cassette and 10spd chain.
>
> The problem is the new 10spd chain does not like my Ultegra 9spd double
> crankset. I am having problems shifting up to the large chainring .
> Instead of shifting smoothly onto the large chainring, the chain seems
> to ride on top of the chain ring teeth momentarily before meshing, and
> sometimes as a result the chain get thrown of the crank completely. As
> you can imagine this is very unsettling an potentially very dangerous!
>
> Thinking that it was my front derailler adjustment that was the
> problem, I spent much time readjusting the front derailler with no
> success. So I gave up and took the bike to my helpful LBS, who also had
> a crack at readjusting the derailler. They were also unable to fix the
> problem.
>
> So the LBS is telling me that it is the incompatability between the
> 10spd chain and 9spd crank that is causing the problem. Solution- buy a
> new 10spd crank. My existing 9spd crank and chainrings are low mileage
> and are in excellent condition.
>
> So what gives here? I know Shimano say's these parts are incompatible,
> but I thought this was just BS to trick you into buying more parts. I
> was under the impression, and this has been supported by Sheldon Browns
> website, that there would be no problem running a 10spd chain on a 9spd
> crank.
>
> So can anyone here offer a solution, before I spend a bunch of $$$
> buying a new crank that I do not need?
>
> Thanks.
>

the 9/10 combo does work, after a fashion, but there's a reason the old
shimano chain had those funny little bulges on the side plates - they're
to allow the tabs and insets on the gears to pick up on those bulges and
assist shifting. if you look at the shape of the tabs and pins on the
new 10s gears, they've been re-profiled to work with the new flat chain.

so, if you can live with it, as many people do - particularly the "old
skool" types that predated index shifting and were used to /all/ shifts
being like you now describe, then fine. if you want shifting to be
flawless "shimano" shifting, you need the new chain wheels to get the
appropriate tab/pin profiles for that chain.
 
D

ddog

Guest
I will be interested in learning from your question as well.

9 speed should be the highest anyone Needs to go, and Shimano and Campy
have developed interference issues that make 10 speed components
incompatible for working with other speeds. I have not seen any real
explanations yet of the newer 10 speed interference issues.

But I will never get a 10 speed part unless I know an expert like
Sheldon Brown has verified it first. That's why I like (Suntour or
Simplex) rachet friction shifters and IRD freewheels/cassetes. Of
course the Dura ace/Ultegra crank/bb combo is the ultimate imo. The
rachet friction shifters and IRD seperates me from the Shimano Jap
marketing angle of HAVE to install all new drive gear components when
you change one component because it wears out. That's the 'catch'. And
if I can't get Shimano crank/bb to fit later, I'll go to IRD's drive
train solutions. They are expensive but are Shimano based technlogy,
maybe better quality, and don't change constantly. LBS generally just
'offer' the Jap 'catch' solutions as you well know, but will help when
you figure out what you need (get to know the 'chief' mechanic and tip
him constantly, or tip anyone who works on your bike or saves you
money, except the owner or service writer :)

Good luck!
 
S

Sheldon Brown

Guest
Axeman wrote:
> > I have just done partial upgrade from Ultegra 9spd to 10spd on my road
> > bike (encouraged by a crash that wrecked my 9speed shifters among other
> > things). So I have changed the minimum I thought required to go to
> > Ultegra 10spd- shifters, rear derailler, cassette and 10spd chain.
> >
> > The problem is the new 10spd chain does not like my Ultegra 9spd double
> > crankset. I am having problems shifting up to the large chainring .
> > Instead of shifting smoothly onto the large chainring, the chain seems
> > to ride on top of the chain ring teeth momentarily before meshing, and
> > sometimes as a result the chain get thrown of the crank completely. As
> > you can imagine this is very unsettling an potentially very dangerous!
> >
> > Thinking that it was my front derailler adjustment that was the
> > problem, I spent much time readjusting the front derailler with no
> > success. So I gave up and took the bike to my helpful LBS, who also had
> > a crack at readjusting the derailler. They were also unable to fix the
> > problem.
> >
> > So the LBS is telling me that it is the incompatability between the
> > 10spd chain and 9spd crank that is causing the problem. Solution- buy a
> > new 10spd crank. My existing 9spd crank and chainrings are low mileage
> > and are in excellent condition.
> >
> > So what gives here? I know Shimano say's these parts are incompatible,
> > but I thought this was just BS to trick you into buying more parts. I
> > was under the impression, and this has been supported by Sheldon Browns
> > website, that there would be no problem running a 10spd chain on a 9spd
> > crank.
> >
> > So can anyone here offer a solution, before I spend a bunch of $$$
> > buying a new crank that I do not need?


jim beam wrote:
>
> the 9/10 combo does work, after a fashion, but there's a reason the old
> shimano chain had those funny little bulges on the side plates - they're
> to allow the tabs and insets on the gears to pick up on those bulges and
> assist shifting. if you look at the shape of the tabs and pins on the
> new 10s gears, they've been re-profiled to work with the new flat chain.
>
> so, if you can live with it, as many people do - particularly the "old
> skool" types that predated index shifting and were used to /all/ shifts
> being like you now describe, then fine. if you want shifting to be
> flawless "shimano" shifting, you need the new chain wheels to get the
> appropriate tab/pin profiles for that chain.


This is rarely a problem in practice, but when it is an issue, it has
nothing to do with the "crank." The only part that you would need to
change is the small chainring, which will have the teeth offset
slightly farther to the right than the "9 speed" small ring.

Alternately, this sort of issue mainly arises if your shifting habits
include going way up to the smaller rear sprockets in back on the small
chainring, then upshifting the front while in one of the outer rear
sprockets.

Generally, it's better practice to make the chainring shift when you
are near the middle of the cluster in back.

Sheldon "Chainline" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| You will hear people say, "Our country, right or wrong," |
| but that is a false patriotism and bad Americanism. |
| When our country is wrong she is worse than other countries |
| when they are wrong, for she has more light than other |
| countries, and we somehow ought to make her feel that we |
| are sorry and ashamed for her. --William Dean Howells, 1912 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On 6 Jan 2007 07:25:44 -0800, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:

>9 speed should be the highest anyone Needs to go,


How can it be that someone might "need" 9 but not 10? How can it be
that one person can "need" 9 but another person, living somewhere even
hillier, wouldn't "need" 10?

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
D

ddog

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 6 Jan 2007 07:25:44 -0800, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >9 speed should be the highest anyone Needs to go,

>
> How can it be that someone might "need" 9 but not 10? How can it be
> that one person can "need" 9 but another person, living somewhere even
> hillier, wouldn't "need" 10?
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************


Its the same range, one more gear, smaller chain, and different
Hyperglide interfaces. In hillier area, you should shift less and spin
more which is more power transmitted to wheel. A new crank, one of the
most expensive things next to frame and nice set of wheels, is also
another good reason not to switch.
 
M

Michael Warner

Guest
On 6 Jan 2007 07:25:44 -0800, ddog wrote:

> I will be interested in learning from your question as well.
>
> 9 speed should be the highest anyone Needs to go


I've heard people with 8 speeds say that 8 is all we need, and even
people with 7 say that 7 is all we need. Since some of them are at least
as fast as me, it must be true :)

FWIW, I'm happy with 9 for serious riding, and don't think another cog is
worth the extra expense and greater chain fragility.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw
 
S

Sheldon Brown

Guest
Philip Bailey wrote:

> >9 speed should be the highest anyone Needs to go,


John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> How can it be that someone might "need" 9 but not 10? How can it be
> that one person can "need" 9 but another person, living somewhere even
> hillier, wouldn't "need" 10?


Actually, folks in hilly terrain are generally better off with 9,
because 10 speed stuff doesn't currently support seriously low gearing.

However the word "need" is inaccurate here, as it most often is in
bicycle contexts. Nobody _needs_ more than one gear. If the hill gets
too steep you can always get off and walk.

Sheldon "Who 'Needs' A Bicycle Anyway?" Brown
+---------------------------------------------+
| If your bike has drop handlebars, but you |
| rarely or never ride on the drops, it's a |
| sure sign that your bike is not properly |
| fitted or is not properly adjusted! |
| See: http://sheldonbrown.com/handsup |
+---------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
D

Derk

Guest
Sheldon Brown wrote:
> However the word "need" is inaccurate here, as it most often is in
> bicycle contexts. Nobody _needs_ more than one gear. If the hill gets
> too steep you can always get off and walk.

Not if you have cleats.....

Gr, Derk
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On 6 Jan 2007 14:54:07 -0800, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On 6 Jan 2007 07:25:44 -0800, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >9 speed should be the highest anyone Needs to go,

>>
>> How can it be that someone might "need" 9 but not 10? How can it be
>> that one person can "need" 9 but another person, living somewhere even
>> hillier, wouldn't "need" 10?

>
>Its the same range, one more gear, smaller chain, and different
>Hyperglide interfaces. In hillier area, you should shift less and spin
>more which is more power transmitted to wheel.


In other words "Lala lala lala nonsense lala a la ala la."

> A new crank, one of the
>most expensive things next to frame and nice set of wheels, is also
>another good reason not to switch.


?

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
D

ddog

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 6 Jan 2007 14:54:07 -0800, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >> On 6 Jan 2007 07:25:44 -0800, "ddog" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >9 speed should be the highest anyone Needs to go,
> >>
> >> How can it be that someone might "need" 9 but not 10? How can it be
> >> that one person can "need" 9 but another person, living somewhere even
> >> hillier, wouldn't "need" 10?

> >
> >Its the same range, one more gear, smaller chain, and different
> >Hyperglide interfaces. In hillier area, you should shift less and spin
> >more which is more power transmitted to wheel.

>
> In other words "Lala lala lala nonsense lala a la ala la."
>
> > A new crank, one of the
> >most expensive things next to frame and nice set of wheels, is also
> >another good reason not to switch.

>
> ?
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************


Pud Troll.
 
R

Ron Ruff

Guest
Axeman wrote:
> I have just done partial upgrade from Ultegra 9spd to 10spd on my road
> bike (encouraged by a crash that wrecked my 9speed shifters among other
> things). So I have changed the minimum I thought required to go to
> Ultegra 10spd- shifters, rear derailler, cassette and 10spd chain.


I know it's too late, but you could have replaced your shifters with
Campy 10 (lighter and cheaper than Shimano) and just kept all your 9spd
Shimano stuff. I decided to go that route when my barends died (again).
Using the Hubbub cable routing it seems to shift fine. I particularly
like the front shifting action compared to Shimano brifters. I do miss
being able to tell what gear I'm in though, without looking down...

BTW I think the 9spd der. would have worked fine with 10spd... unless
it got wrecked in the crash.
 
J

Jim Higson

Guest
Sheldon Brown wrote:

>> the 9/10 combo does work, after a fashion, but there's a reason the old
>> shimano chain had those funny little bulges on the side plates - they're
>> to allow the tabs and insets on the gears to pick up on those bulges and
>> assist shifting. if you look at the shape of the tabs and pins on the
>> new 10s gears, they've been re-profiled to work with the new flat chain.
>>
>> so, if you can live with it, as many people do - particularly the "old
>> skool" types that predated index shifting and were used to /all/ shifts
>> being like you now describe, then fine. if you want shifting to be
>> flawless "shimano" shifting, you need the new chain wheels to get the
>> appropriate tab/pin profiles for that chain.

>
> This is rarely a problem in practice, but when it is an issue, it has
> nothing to do with the "crank." The only part that you would need to
> change is the small chainring, which will have the teeth offset
> slightly farther to the right than the "9 speed" small ring.


On the chainring I'm looking at (a TA Zelito I'm about to fit), the centre
of the teeth are not planar with the centre of the mounting bolts.

It is possible to just turn the smaller chainring the other way round, so
that the logo and things are facing towards the frame? This looks like it
might change the effective distance between rings.
 
J

Jim Higson

Guest
Jim Higson wrote:

> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>
>>> the 9/10 combo does work, after a fashion, but there's a reason the old
>>> shimano chain had those funny little bulges on the side plates - they're
>>> to allow the tabs and insets on the gears to pick up on those bulges and
>>> assist shifting. if you look at the shape of the tabs and pins on the
>>> new 10s gears, they've been re-profiled to work with the new flat chain.
>>>
>>> so, if you can live with it, as many people do - particularly the "old
>>> skool" types that predated index shifting and were used to /all/ shifts
>>> being like you now describe, then fine. if you want shifting to be
>>> flawless "shimano" shifting, you need the new chain wheels to get the
>>> appropriate tab/pin profiles for that chain.

>>
>> This is rarely a problem in practice, but when it is an issue, it has
>> nothing to do with the "crank." The only part that you would need to
>> change is the small chainring, which will have the teeth offset
>> slightly farther to the right than the "9 speed" small ring.

>
> On the chainring I'm looking at (a TA Zelito I'm about to fit), the centre
> of the teeth are not planar with the centre of the mounting bolts.
>
> It is possible to just turn the smaller chainring the other way round, so
> that the logo and things are facing towards the frame? This looks like it
> might change the effective distance between rings.


Actually, now I think about it, that solution would bring the teeth farther
apart, so would be better for a 9-speed chain on a 10-speed crankset, and
probably not help for 10 chain on 9 'set.

Oh well.
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Axeman wrote:
> Heres one for you helpful techheads out there.
>
> I have just done partial upgrade from Ultegra 9spd to 10spd on my road
> bike (encouraged by a crash that wrecked my 9speed shifters among other
> things). So I have changed the minimum I thought required to go to
> Ultegra 10spd- shifters, rear derailler, cassette and 10spd chain.


Dohh!!, no need for a 10s RD for this conversion.

>
> The problem is the new 10spd chain does not like my Ultegra 9spd double
> crankset. I am having problems shifting up to the large chainring .
> Instead of shifting smoothly onto the large chainring, the chain seems
> to ride on top of the chain ring teeth momentarily before meshing, and
> sometimes as a result the chain get thrown of the crank completely. As
> you can imagine this is very unsettling an potentially very dangerous!


FD adjust is what I wopuld recommend. I have put lotsa 9s FD onto 10s
systems with great results. Make sure the height/alignment is correct
and the chain is close to the inner cage when in big cog, small ring,
cable tight.
>
> Thinking that it was my front derailler adjustment that was the
> problem, I spent much time readjusting the front derailler with no
> success. So I gave up and took the bike to my helpful LBS, who also had
> a crack at readjusting the derailler. They were also unable to fix the
> problem.
>
> So the LBS is telling me that it is the incompatability between the
> 10spd chain and 9spd crank that is causing the problem. Solution- buy a
> new 10spd crank. My existing 9spd crank and chainrings are low mileage
> and are in excellent condition.


Balderdash. First, get '10s rings', but ya don't need this at all.
>
> So what gives here? I know Shimano say's these parts are incompatible,
> but I thought this was just BS to trick you into buying more parts. I
> was under the impression, and this has been supported by Sheldon Browns
> website, that there would be no problem running a 10spd chain on a 9spd
> crank.
>
> So can anyone here offer a solution, before I spend a bunch of $$$
> buying a new crank that I do not need?


See above, still think it's a FD adjust issue. DO NOT spend lots of $
on a 10s crank.
>
> Thanks.
 
N

NeauDL

Guest
Is the difference in spacing between 9- and 10-speed chainrings only
due to changes in the rings themselves, and not a difference in the
spider? Is that true for triple cranks as well as for doubles, such
that I could simply change the chainrings on my Ultegra 9 triple
crankset and have no problems shifting a 10-speed chain? Or is the
spider different such that I can only really get the narrower 10-speed
chairing spacing by buying a 10-speed crank? Are other brands of
triple cranksets similar, or do any have different spacing in the
spider as well as, or instead of, in the chainrings?
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
NeauDL wrote:
> Is the difference in spacing between 9- and 10-speed chainrings only
> due to changes in the rings themselves, and not a difference in the
> spider? Is that true for triple cranks as well as for doubles, such
> that I could simply change the chainrings on my Ultegra 9 triple
> crankset and have no problems shifting a 10-speed chain? Or is the
> spider different such that I can only really get the narrower 10-speed
> chairing spacing by buying a 10-speed crank? Are other brands of
> triple cranksets similar, or do any have different spacing in the
> spider as well as, or instead of, in the chainrings?


Just the rings, not the spider. BUT not really an issue.