Shimano USA - Price Too High?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Stuart J. Armou, Oct 20, 2003.

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  1. It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this interesting given Shimano
    USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order retailers.

    2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is 43,000 yen or about $400.00
    (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for 34,000 yen, about $280.00) 2003 DA crank - mail order
    $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about $300.00

    Gives you something to think about. It also is a strong indication of what the discount to the
    inporter is. I really don't mind a company making a profit (that is after all what they are in
    business for) but there seems to be something wrong with this picture. When I get the Japan list
    price for the new DA crank/group I'll post that also given the approximately 500.00 jump in price
    from the current Should be an excellent year for Campy Record!

    Stu

    --
    "Refrain from throwing your bicycle in public. It shows poor upbringing." - Jacquie Phelan
     
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  2. Bfd

    Bfd Guest

    "Stuart J. Armour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this interesting given Shimano
    > USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order retailers.
    >
    > 2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is 43,000 yen or about $400.00
    > (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for 34,000 yen, about $280.00) 2003 DA crank - mail order
    > $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about $300.00
    >
    > Gives you something to think about. It also is a strong indication of what the discount to the
    > inporter is. I really don't mind a company making a profit (that is after all what they are in
    > business for) but there seems to be something wrong with this picture. When I get the Japan list
    > price for the new DA crank/group I'll post that also given the approximately 500.00 jump in
    > price from the current Should be an excellent year for Campy Record!
    >
    Agree, at the SF Grand Prix/T-Mobile Int'l, I was able to see and test ride ,on a trainer, the new
    DA 10. Although I still fine the cranks to be ugly, the shifting was flawless and very, very
    smooth. When I asked the Shimano rep was the going rate was for the DA 10 group, he quoted between
    "$1500-1600". I've heard DA 10 is on the market now for like $1300-1400. That's in line with 2003
    Record 10, which probably should increase in 2004 due to a "redesign" of a few pieces, like the
    new rear der.

    Nevertheless, Shimano believes its new DA 10 group is comparable to Record 10, at least in
    performance, and since they have the biggest cycling marketing tool available - Lance Armstrong - I
    suspect that at least in the short-term, DA 10 groups will be flying out the door at that
    $1300-1500 range....
     
  3. Jeff Wills

    Jeff Wills Guest

    "Stuart J. Armour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this interesting given Shimano
    > USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order retailers.
    >
    > 2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is 43,000 yen or about $400.00
    > (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for 34,000 yen, about $280.00) 2003 DA crank - mail order
    > $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about $300.00
    >

    Prices listed on a manufacturer's website would almost certainly be higher than those through a
    direct-to-consumer site. That way, the manufacturer protects itself from accusations of
    "price-fixing" by allowing the seller to set the price and still allowing the price to vary based on
    market factors.

    Jeff
     
  4. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "Stuart J. Armour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this interesting given Shimano
    > USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order retailers.
    >
    > 2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is 43,000 yen or about $400.00
    > (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for 34,000 yen, about $280.00) 2003 DA crank - mail order
    > $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about $300.00
    >

    [snip]

    > Stu

    Dear Stu,

    Forgive my ignorance, but I'm guessing that you're in Japan, that the Shimano cranks are
    manufactured there, and that you're comparing the prices for cranks shipped from a Japanese factory
    to a Japanese bike shop and picked up by customers, to the prices for the same cranks shipped from
    Japan to mail order warehouses in the U.S. and then shipped to private homes.

    Years ago, a Honda motorcycle dealer patiently explained to me that yes, the clutch lever was
    expensive, but that it took half a dozen people to get it into my grubby little paws between
    Colorado and Japan, and they all liked to feed their families, so maybe I shouldn't have broken it
    in the first place.

    It's not as if shipping is free, running a mail order house is a charity, or Shimano cranks are a
    high-volume, low-margin business. It's a luxury trade, with luxury prices. Curse that evil Sheldon
    Brown, that wicked Andrew Muzi, and all those other dealers for not offering me parts at cost!

    Another way to look at the vast profits squeezed out of the helpless public by capitalist
    bloodsuckers is to compare their their apparent profits to the sales tax and the UPS shipping for
    the item. On a $400 crank delivered to my door, UPS is likely to ask for $10-15 to cover shipping
    and insurance, while my city, county, and state firmly (but mistakenly) believe that I will pay
    $29.60 in taxes. Should the middle-men who do far more settle for a lot less?

    The bicycle-parts middle-men are unlikely to have the economies of scale enjoyed by UPS and the
    government. Until you've run a successful mail-order house or local bike shop for a few years,
    beware of setting their prices to suit your convenience.

    (No, I'm not a bicycle dealer. I do, occasionally, have to explain to medical offices that I don't
    drive across town to plug their printers back in for less than they tip the pizza delivery-man.)

    But it certainly is interesting to see what people are paying for bicycle parts elsewhere--thanks!

    Carl Fogel
     
  5. Richard Chan

    Richard Chan Guest

    "Stuart J. Armour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > .. Gives you something to think about. It also is a strong indication of what the discount to the
    > inporter is. I really don't mind a company making a profit (that is after all what they are in
    > business for) but there seems to be something wrong with this picture. When I get the Japan list
    > price for the new DA crank/group I'll post that also given the approximately 500.00 jump in price
    > from the current Should be an excellent year for Campy Record!

    Would that include the $850 plastic cranks, rev. 2 in your comparison? Can you get a set of 165mm
    carbon Record cranks in a triple over there yet?
     
  6. Dear Carl, (and everyone else)

    Yes I'm in Japan, but the point I was making is that until now I could get Shimano parts way
    cheaper mail order than I could here (unless on sale, then all bets are off) as usually a Japanese
    Bike shop sells only at list price and no discount whatsoever. ( BTW that's not a new story with
    us who live here, typically we can purchase Japanese made items from the states for anywhere from
    10 to 30% less than what the product sells for here due to all the middlemen involved in the
    Japanese market and I'm talking with 15 years+ of history living here so I know what I'm talking
    about). That's why I found it very interesting that the new XTR (and presumably the new DA group)
    was 15-20 percent more than the Japanese list price.

    The current DA crank (7700 series) I think shows the actual cost to Shimano USA for shipping,
    customs, handling, etc. with a fair markup to the wholesaler. Using the latest mail order catalog
    the cost is around $200.00 (it's been that price ever since it's been out). That translates to a
    45% reduction US retail (not wholesale) from the Japanese list price. CC's fall catalog doesn't
    list a group price but the cost of the components is about $1620.00 giving a jump in price for
    the group of around $500.00. Campy's new price list isn't out yet to my knowledge but with the
    increase in carbon parts it will go up also but I don't think that much. So why have all the
    costs (shipping, handling, etc.) increased with the release of the 7800 series 100% or more (and
    only the new DA and XTR groups went up like this, 105 & Ultegra prices have remained essentially
    the same)? For your theory to be true, all of the Shimano prices would have gone up a similar
    amount, not just the new DA & XTR groups.

    It seems to me that Shimano USA by choking down the mail order/web market to 6 "authorized"
    stores is attempting to control the pricing. I believe it's legal doing it this way but the
    result is the same to all who use the mail order to get what they want. Higher prices. Forget
    Harris Cyclery. Forget Branford Bike. Forget Cambria, Price Point, etc. If you sell mail
    order/web you are not allowed to sell Shimano products by mail unless "authorized". If you
    violate that, then the position of Shimano USA is we won't sell to you. Period. This is not in
    the best interest of us, the consumer.

    If anyone is a "blood sucking capitalist" it's not the retailers being dictated to or the
    retailers barred from being able to purchase and sell Shimano on the web or mail order, it's the
    short sighted, myopic, self-important owners of Shimano USA. Apple computer did something similar
    20 years ago and see what that got them (I think they have about 5% of the PC market now, instead
    of the 50% or more that they once enjoyed. They too jacked up prices well beyond what their
    computers were worth).

    Bottom line, this move by Shimano USA, will increase the sales of Campy Record, especially if
    Campy's new pricing for 2004 is less than that of Shimano USA. And they are forgetting that while
    Lance is riding Shimano equipped bikes, it's the man who won 5 Tours de France, not the equipment.

    I'll let all know what the Japanese pricing for the DA group when I find out.

    Cheers!

    Stu

    Carl Fogel wrote:

    > "Stuart J. Armour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > > It's been a while since I've posted but I thought you would find this interesting given Shimano
    > > USA's decision to only allow 6 mail/web order retailers.
    > >
    > > 2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is 43,000 yen or about
    > > $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for 34,000 yen, about $280.00) 2003 DA crank -
    > > mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about $300.00
    > >
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > > Stu
    >
    > Dear Stu,
    >
    > Forgive my ignorance, but I'm guessing that you're in Japan, that the Shimano cranks are
    > manufactured there, and that you're comparing the prices for cranks shipped from a Japanese
    > factory to a Japanese bike shop and picked up by customers, to the prices for the same cranks
    > shipped from Japan to mail order warehouses in the U.S. and then shipped to private homes.
    >
    > Years ago, a Honda motorcycle dealer patiently explained to me that yes, the clutch lever was
    > expensive, but that it took half a dozen people to get it into my grubby little paws between
    > Colorado and Japan, and they all liked to feed their families, so maybe I shouldn't have broken it
    > in the first place.
    >
    > It's not as if shipping is free, running a mail order house is a charity, or Shimano cranks are a
    > high-volume, low-margin business. It's a luxury trade, with luxury prices. Curse that evil Sheldon
    > Brown, that wicked Andrew Muzi, and all those other dealers for not offering me parts at cost!
    >
    > Another way to look at the vast profits squeezed out of the helpless public by capitalist
    > bloodsuckers is to compare their their apparent profits to the sales tax and the UPS shipping for
    > the item. On a $400 crank delivered to my door, UPS is likely to ask for $10-15 to cover shipping
    > and insurance, while my city, county, and state firmly (but mistakenly) believe that I will pay
    > $29.60 in taxes. Should the middle-men who do far more settle for a lot less?
    >
    > The bicycle-parts middle-men are unlikely to have the economies of scale enjoyed by UPS and the
    > government. Until you've run a successful mail-order house or local bike shop for a few years,
    > beware of setting their prices to suit your convenience.
    >
    > (No, I'm not a bicycle dealer. I do, occasionally, have to explain to medical offices that I don't
    > drive across town to plug their printers back in for less than they tip the pizza delivery-man.)
    >
    > But it certainly is interesting to see what people are paying for bicycle parts elsewhere--thanks!
    >
    > Carl Fogel

    --
    "Refrain from throwing your bicycle in public. It shows poor upbringing." - Jacquie Phelan
     
  7. sarmor-<< 2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is 43,000 yen or about
    $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for 34,000 yen, about $280.00) 2003 DA crank - mail
    order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about $300.00 >><BR><BR>

    I think you have to use a different measure than just dollars to yen exchange rate...something like
    percentage of something else, like rent or something to get a decent picture of actual price. Japan
    has been holding the dollar low(weak) artificially for a long time, so price comparisons just
    looking at the exchange rate can be misleading.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  8. richard-<< Would that include the $850 plastic cranks, rev. 2 in your comparison? Can you get a set
    of 165mm carbon Record cranks in a triple over there yet? >><BR><BR>

    yes and no...Can't get 2004 DA in 165 either or in any triple...

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  9. Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]> wrote:
    : I think you have to use a different measure than just dollars to yen exchange rate...something
    : like percentage of something else, like rent or something to get a decent picture of actual price.
    : Japan has been holding the dollar low(weak) artificially for a long time, so price comparisons
    : just looking at the exchange rate can be misleading.

    Big Macs. amazingly we were just talking about this in the more tedious and surprisingly still not
    dead thread: "Not sure what to make of this..."
    --
    david reuteler [email protected]
     
  10. Peter,

    Sorry for the delay, but I was gathering more information. Well, if the yen rate was wildly
    fluctuating, you might have a point, however, with 1 exception about 7 years ago the yen rate has
    been fairly constant in the 105 -115 range (that's what I buy it at, not what the official rate
    is, add about 2-3 yen per dollar for the official rate). That would give a dollar price
    fluctuation for a 36,000 yen DA crank of $342.00 for the 105 rate and $313.00 for the 115. The
    mail order price for the DA 7701 has been between $189.00 (now) and I believe a high of $210.00
    (what I paid 3 1/2 years ago). That fluctuation can be explained by the yen to dollar rate. And
    the whole time, the Japanese list price remained constant at 36,000. See what I'm talking about?
    If Shimano prices went up equally on all the components then the yen rate and other factors
    (shipping, customs, etc.) would be the cause of the drastic jump in the price to the US consumer,
    but the new XTR group has gone from about 45% less than the Japanese list price (converted to
    dollars) to 10% more than that. The DA group is about even as you can see below (and is at a 104
    yen to the dollar exchange rate). That's a 55% jump in price for XTR and 45% for Dura Ace! And
    you know the dealer price for the 7701 so you have a much better idea than I do what Shimano USA
    was really paying for the parts from Japan plus the shipping, etc. charges. Is Shimano really
    that much better only in the US that Shimano USA figures that they can gauge the consumer with a
    price hike that much? (They are probably counting on no one back there getting information like
    this) As I said in a previous posting as long as Campy doesn't drastically increase the price on
    the Record group (and it doesn't look like it will, I just checked at Chicago Bike and it looks
    like it will be around the same price as Shimano USA's pricing or a little bit less, depending on
    what the hubs go for) it will be a goood year for Campy. Just returned from my LBS and got a copy
    of the Shimano retail list. Interesting that the parts that aren't 10S specific actually went
    down some, while (as you would expect) the 10S components cost a bit more (there are a couple of
    anomalys but not enough to change my point). Also Shimano has apparently dropped the 7701 double
    crank (makes sense they do have a new one out) while retaining the 7703 triple. Yen price (from
    my LBS list) and dollar cost from a popular (and authorized!) US on-line retailer below.

    Part Yen dollar Crank 7800 37,600 366.00 7703 40,000 270.00

    STI 7800 39,600 385.00 7703 39,000 250.00

    Brake 7800 23,500 225.00 7700 26,000 145.00

    FR Hub 7800 10,500 102.00 7700 8,700 56.00

    I'll now get off the soap box. It seems apparent to me that Shimano USA is in the process of
    stiffing the marketplace, and the only way to get them to be more realistic is for the buyers to
    object. Failing that the sheep will continue to be shorn! Maybe this should be the subject of a
    "Golden Fleece Award"!

    Cheers,

    Stu

    Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

    > sarmor-<< 2003 XTR crank - mail order $450.00 or so, here in Japan list price is 43,000 yen or
    > about $400.00 (it was on sale this weekend at my LBS for 34,000 yen, about $280.00) 2003 DA crank
    > - mail order $200.00 or so, Japan list 36,000 yen or about $300.00 >><BR><BR>
    >
    > I think you have to use a different measure than just dollars to yen exchange rate...something
    > like percentage of something else, like rent or something to get a decent picture of actual price.
    > Japan has been holding the dollar low(weak) artificially for a long time, so price comparisons
    > just looking at the exchange rate can be misleading.
    >
    > Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    > (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

    --
    "Refrain from throwing your bicycle in public. It shows poor upbringing." - Jacquie Phelan
     
  11. Per LöWdin

    Per LöWdin Guest

    > It's about the cost of the stuff and shimano's attempt to level the
    playing
    > field for local bike shops and MO...

    - hmm, sounds like the kind of price rigging monopolies and oligopolies do, wish they did to Shimano
    as they did with Bell, and attempted with Microsoft. In any case in Sweden they manage to squeeze
    out some 40 percent more than in the US, though a bit of that is VAT. If the Yen rises as your
    government would like it to Shimano stuff will certainly become more costly in the US.

    The dollar has fallen some 25 percent against the major European currencies. Bad for American
    tourists. On the other hand, there is bunch of excellent American bikes that have simply been priced
    out of the market by the dollars absurdly high exchange rate and they will have a fair chance to
    gain market shares. After all there are no bike makers like Titus, Intense or Ellsworth in Europe.

    End of rant

    Per http://www.lowdin.nu/MTB/MTB.html
     
  12. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On 20 Oct 2003 10:28:27 -0700, [email protected] (bfd) may have said:

    >... Shimano believes its new DA 10 group is comparable to Record 10, at least in performance, and
    >since they have the biggest cycling marketing tool available - Lance Armstrong - I suspect that at
    >least in the short-term, DA 10 groups will be flying out the door at that $1300-1500 range....

    Probably true, in just large enough numbers to make Shimano happy. On the other hand, for those
    willing to wait, I have little doubt that in a few years, the performance improvements will show up
    all the way down in the Altus line (or whatever the equivalent is called by then), for a lot less
    money, and probably with fewer income maximization misfeatures.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
    don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.
     
  13. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...

    > The dollar has fallen some 25 percent against the major European currencies. Bad for American
    > tourists. On the other hand, there is bunch of excellent American bikes that have simply been
    > priced out of the market by the dollars absurdly high exchange rate and they will have a fair
    > chance to gain market shares. After all there are no bike makers like Titus, Intense or Ellsworth
    > in Europe.

    Well, that's what they'll tell you -- that high Euro bike prices in the US are due to exchange
    rates. However, I bet most of the last season's stock was already over here when the Euro was
    still 85 cents.

    I notice Campy prices haven't changed that much. Ultimately, the market sets the price.

    Matt O.
     
  14. Per LöWdin

    Per LöWdin Guest

    > > The dollar has fallen some 25 percent against the major European
    currencies.
    > > Bad for American tourists. On the other hand, there is bunch of
    excellent
    > > American bikes that have simply been priced out of the market by the
    dollars
    > > absurdly high exchange rate and they will have a fair chance to gain
    market
    > > shares. After all there are no bike makers like Titus, Intense or
    Ellsworth
    > > in Europe.
    >
    > Well, that's what they'll tell you

    Yes, and I think they are right. In the nineties stuff such as Seven and Litespeed frames, complete
    Klein bikes, Chris King hubs, etc., were sold in a couple of the best shops in Sweden. Around 01-02
    when the dollar was absurdly overvalued (trade deficits, etc), they virtually disappered, as it was
    impossible to sell bikes that cost twice as much as other bikes even though they are good.
    Presently, I would say the US is at least 5 years ahead possibly even more when it comes to
    mountainbikes, and the road bikes must be pretty good too, after all the last couple of years TDF
    has been won on Treks.

    > -- that high Euro bike prices in the US are due to exchange rates. However, I bet most of the last
    > season's stock was already over here when the Euro was still 85 cents.

    Well, yes, I think so, however, prices fluctuate slowly, it is not a spot market, the shops and
    mailorder and weborder companies set their prices in catalogues etc, and then they more or less have
    to stand by them for that season, if the Euro goes up they earn less, if it goes down they earn
    more. Then, they adjust the prices accordlingly for the next year.

    > I notice Campy prices haven't changed that much.

    Sure, they can´t increase the price as much as the Euro has rised because they are afraid to price
    themselves out of the market, on the other han, I am pretty sure that if you had a look at Campy´s
    books you will find that a sharp drop in profits has already occured or is expected due to the
    dollars value.

    Per http://www.lowdin.nu/MTB/MTB.html
     
  15. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) writes:

    > << If the Yen rises as your government would like it to Shimano stuff will certainly become more
    > costly in the US.
    >
    > The dollar has fallen some 25 percent against the major European currencies. Bad for American
    > tourists. >><BR><BR>
    >
    > Tell me about it, I just got back from the UK...

    How did you enjoy Glasgow? Where else did you go and what impressed/or interested you

    Simon, aye speiring tae see oorselves as ithers see us.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    do not sail on uphill water
    - Bill Lee
     
  16. Per LöWdin

    Per LöWdin Guest

    "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
    news:[email protected]...
    > << If the Yen rises as your government would like it to Shimano stuff will certainly become more
    costly
    > in the US.
    >
    > The dollar has fallen some 25 percent against the major European
    currencies.
    > Bad for American tourists. >><BR><BR>
    >
    > Tell me about it, I just got back from the UK...GWB wants the $ to remain
    weak,
    > so that US goods are more attractive to overseas buyers , helping the
    balance
    > of trade...Makes Euro and Asian stuff expensive for americans tho...make
    them
    > but US when they can.

    It really depends on how the US industry manages its advantage. When it comes to mountainbikes US is
    years ahead with companies as Titus, Turner, Intense, Ellsworth, Santa Cruz, Trek, Ventana, and
    other. There is plenty of competition and most importantly mountainbiking is pretty mature, there
    are enough people who can afford 3-4000 USD bikes. All our bikes are American, Titus, Klein, Fisher.

    I remember when I was a kid, my family had a Desoto, one of my uncles always drove Dodge, another
    drove a Chevrolet, my grandfather brother had a Ford. Today, I don´t know any one who drives an
    American car in Sweden.

    By the way we just came back from seven weeks in Colorado
    http://www.lowdin.nu/MTB/Colorado/Singletrack.htm am afraid we just passed Boulder. We´ll stop
    next time.

    Per

    http://www.lowdin.nu
     
  17. On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:53:56 GMT, "Per Löwdin" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >- hmm, sounds like the kind of price rigging monopolies and oligopolies do, wish they did to
    > Shimano as they did with Bell, and attempted with Microsoft.

    Heh. The US government doesn't have jurisdiction, and the Japanese government *is* the Big
    Businesses, who would of course not start any sort of antitrust related activities. Bad precedent.

    Jasper
     
  18. Onefred

    Onefred Guest

    > When it comes to mountainbikes US is years ahead with companies as Titus, Turner, Intense,
    > Ellsworth, Santa Cruz, Trek, Ventana, and other.

    What about France's La Pierre ("The Peter")? I've always heard that this was an *excellent* MTB
    manufacturer.

    Dave
     
  19. On 10/26/2003 09:21 PM, in article [email protected], "onefred"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> When it comes to mountainbikes US is years ahead with companies as Titus, Turner, Intense,
    >> Ellsworth, Santa Cruz, Trek, Ventana, and other.
    >
    >
    > What about France's La Pierre ("The Peter")? I've always heard that this was an *excellent* MTB
    > manufacturer.

    La Pierre == "the rock"

    --
    Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum
    pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti
    ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-ewe
    dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
     
  20. On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:34:51 GMT, "Steven L. Sheffield" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >On 10/26/2003 09:21 PM, in article [email protected], "onefred"
    ><[email protected]> wrote:

    >> What about France's La Pierre ("The Peter")? I've always heard that this was an *excellent* MTB
    >> manufacturer.
    >
    >La Pierre == "the rock"

    That's what he said.

    Jasper "Check a greek dictionary for peter sometime" Janssen
     
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