Shimano Wireless Flight Deck and NiteRider HID Light (Blowtorch) interference

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Bob Jacobs, Jan 29, 2003.

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  1. Bob Jacobs

    Bob Jacobs Guest

    I have the BlowTorch Handlebar H.I.D. with the Shimano Wireless flight Deck computer on my bike...

    I was confused why my computer wasn't working at times, so I took the bike to my local Bike shop
    (Richardson Bike Mart - Dallas, TX), where I bought everything, and Wes (Great sales guy) found out
    the problem.

    The NiteRider system is causing so much radio interference that my wireless Flight Deck
    ceases working.

    He put a metal can around the light and spun the front wheel, and the flight deck started showing
    the speed. He took it away and the display froze. I can get the light about 14 or 16 inches away
    from it before it starts working again.

    So...

    How powerful is this 'interference', and what about those people who have a helmet mounted light?
    Yikes! I hope it doesn't fry their brains. There is NOTHING in the documentation or on the NiteRider
    box about it emitting radio frequencies.

    I am taking my bike to an electrical specialist that Wes recommended, and see what frequency and how
    powerful this thing is in the NightRider system.

    Anyone else have this problem or know how to solve this?

    Thanks, B
     
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  2. Bob Jacobs wrote:
    > I have the BlowTorch Handlebar H.I.D. with the Shimano Wireless flight Deck computer on my bike...
    >
    > I was confused why my computer wasn't working at times, so I took the bike to my local Bike shop
    > (Richardson Bike Mart - Dallas, TX), where I bought everything, and Wes (Great sales guy) found
    > out the problem.
    >
    > The NiteRider system is causing so much radio interference that my wireless Flight Deck ceases
    > working.
    >
    > He put a metal can around the light and spun the front wheel, and the flight deck started showing
    > the speed. He took it away and the display froze. I can get the light about 14 or 16 inches away
    > from it before it starts working again.
    >
    > So...
    >
    > How powerful is this 'interference', and what about those people who have a helmet mounted light?
    > Yikes! I hope it doesn't fry their brains. There is NOTHING in the documentation or on the
    > NiteRider box about it emitting radio frequencies.
    >
    > I am taking my bike to an electrical specialist that Wes recommended, and see what frequency and
    > how powerful this thing is in the NightRider system.
    >
    > Anyone else have this problem or know how to solve this?
    >
    > Thanks, B
    >
    >

    Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains". If they weren't, we'd be
    screwed... you know all those radio stations? Yeah, all those radio waves are flying around you, all
    the time. They're far weaker than visible light, which can't hurt us either. Now, if it was emitting
    x-rays or gamma rays, that'd be bad....

    Jon "Commander" Bond
     
  3. Bob Jacobs

    Bob Jacobs Guest

    I'll take it in this weekend to get it analyzed...

    Wes said the guy (avid bike rider also) can open up the light (NiteRider Blowtorch H.I.D.) and see
    exactly what is emitting the signal with his test equipment and how much signal it's putting out. He
    also said he can add something to the electronics to block the signal..

    Yeah... I bet it's not putting out too much radiation to 'fry brains' really... But, we will
    see Sunday..

    b

    > Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains". If they weren't, we'd be
    > screwed... you know all those radio stations? Yeah, all those radio waves are flying around you,
    > all the time. They're far weaker than visible light, which can't hurt us either. Now, if it was
    > emitting x-rays or gamma rays, that'd be bad....
    >
    > Jon "Commander" Bond
     
  4. Tj

    Tj Guest

    You can make a simple " Faraday Shield" with either copper, or aluminum. The shield doesnt need to
    go all the way around the light just on the side, and bottom of the light. ( Side of the computer of
    course) will work. RF is a funny thing. Yes, it can kill you! But only if your SAR is too little.
    MRI uses anywhere from 10KW for a 1T magnet to 30 KW of power for a 3T to tip the protons. The
    impedence is matched and totaly absorbed by the hydrogen protons of the body ( Think of a microwave)

    Small signals I.E your light ( Probably from the ballast) will be filtered by the aluminum, or
    copper shielding. We are not talking much wattage of signal here. probably less than a milliwatt.
    But you must shield the source of the signal in your case. Or use the JD computer. Amount of
    singletrack/ride time = one kick ass ride.

    TJ

    "Bob Jacobs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:Uv%[email protected]...
    > I have the BlowTorch Handlebar H.I.D. with the Shimano Wireless flight
    Deck
    > computer on my bike...
    >
    > I was confused why my computer wasn't working at times, so I took the bike to my local Bike shop
    > (Richardson Bike Mart - Dallas, TX), where I bought everything, and Wes (Great sales guy) found
    > out the problem.
    >
    > The NiteRider system is causing so much radio interference that my
    wireless
    > Flight Deck ceases working.
    >
    > He put a metal can around the light and spun the front wheel, and the
    flight
    > deck started showing the speed. He took it away and the display froze. I can get the light about
    > 14 or 16 inches away from it before it starts working again.
    >
    > So...
    >
    > How powerful is this 'interference', and what about those people who have
    a
    > helmet mounted light? Yikes! I hope it doesn't fry their brains. There
    is
    > NOTHING in the documentation or on the NiteRider box about it emitting
    radio
    > frequencies.
    >
    > I am taking my bike to an electrical specialist that Wes recommended, and see what frequency and
    > how powerful this thing is in the NightRider
    system.
    >
    > Anyone else have this problem or know how to solve this?
    >
    > Thanks, B
     
  5. John Harlow

    John Harlow Guest

    > Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains". If they weren't, we'd be
    > screwed... you know all those radio stations? Yeah, all those radio waves are flying around you,
    > all the time. They're far weaker than visible light, which can't hurt us either. Now, if it was
    > emitting x-rays or gamma rays, that'd be bad....

    Not everyone agrees with that statement
    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/cell_phone_cancer_link.htm

    Technically this problem is categorized as EMI (Electromagnetic Induction) from the HID's switchmode
    power supply.

    The good news as far as your light goes is signal strength decreases as a function of the inverse
    square of the distance; twice as far away only gets a quarter of the signal. So maybe slight
    relocation of either or both units will solve the problem, or the dealer might be able to install a
    metallic shield in the light (maybe even by metallic spray paint); and / or use shielded cable to
    the battery.
     
  6. John Harlow wrote:
    > > Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains". If
    >
    >>they weren't, we'd be screwed... you know all those radio stations? Yeah, all those radio waves
    >>are flying around you, all the time. They're far weaker than visible light, which can't hurt us
    >>either. Now, if it was emitting x-rays or gamma rays, that'd be bad....
    >
    >
    > Not everyone agrees with that statement
    > http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/cell_phone_cancer_link.htm
    >
    > Technically this problem is categorized as EMI (Electromagnetic Induction) from the HID's
    > switchmode power supply.
    >
    > The good news as far as your light goes is signal strength decreases as a function of the inverse
    > square of the distance; twice as far away only gets a quarter of the signal. So maybe slight
    > relocation of either or both units will solve the problem, or the dealer might be able to install
    > a metallic shield in the light (maybe even by metallic spray paint); and / or use shielded cable
    > to the battery.

    "Consumer Affairs.Com is provided by ConsumerAffairs.Com, Inc. in association with Joan E. Lisante
    LLC, licensed to practice in Virginia and the District of Columbia and the Law Offices of Horwitz,
    Horwitz & Associates, Ltd., licensed to practice in Illinois. ConsumerAffairs.Com is an independent
    service not affiliated with any government agency. "

    In other words, its a lawyer's site... not only that, appears to be a sleazy lawyer at that. This
    "cell phone and cancer" thing has been kicking around for years, and neither statistics or
    experimentation have proven a conclusive link, at all.

    Jon "Commander" Bond
     
  7. Darsh

    Darsh Guest

    "Bob Jacobs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:Uv%[email protected]...
    > I have the BlowTorch Handlebar H.I.D. with the Shimano Wireless flight
    Deck
    > computer on my bike...
    >
    > I was confused why my computer wasn't working at times, so I took the bike to my local Bike shop
    > (Richardson Bike Mart - Dallas, TX), where I bought everything, and Wes (Great sales guy) found
    > out the problem.
    >
    > The NiteRider system is causing so much radio interference that my
    wireless
    > Flight Deck ceases working.
    >
    > He put a metal can around the light and spun the front wheel, and the
    flight
    > deck started showing the speed. He took it away and the display froze. I can get the light about
    > 14 or 16 inches away from it before it starts working again.
    >
    > So...
    >
    > How powerful is this 'interference', and what about those people who have
    a
    > helmet mounted light? Yikes! I hope it doesn't fry their brains. There
    is
    > NOTHING in the documentation or on the NiteRider box about it emitting
    radio
    > frequencies.
    >
    > I am taking my bike to an electrical specialist that Wes recommended, and see what frequency and
    > how powerful this thing is in the NightRider
    system.
    >
    > Anyone else have this problem or know how to solve this?
    >
    > Thanks, B
    >

    OMG, there you are, I have been trying to get a hold of you forever. The BORG are coming... it was a
    bad frenq.. hold on.. wait.. (no deaar.. RUN).. we have been holding her...what? wait.. AGG. what..
    ok... no RUNLER.. NOO.. (gurgle) P,fLES..... DOenT>>..... ARRRGG... bl. leelel. Turn your
    reci...e...v...(gurgf...bl..gur) ...e...rrrr...

    Get those frequencies straight man, we're runnin' at full capacity.

    darsh
     
  8. John Harlow

    John Harlow Guest

    > In other words, its a lawyer's site... not only that, appears to be a sleazy lawyer at that. This
    > "cell phone and cancer" thing has been kicking around for years, and neither statistics or
    > experimentation have proven a conclusive link, at all.
    >
    > Jon "Commander" Bond

    I only said there are those who don't necessarily agree with the statement of RF not being a cancer
    risk. There are plenty other "professional" views on both sides of this subject. Each person can of
    course draw their own conclusion.

    BTW, what's with "Commander"? I see you use it all the time and wonder about it's origin.
     
  9. John Harlow wrote:
    >>In other words, its a lawyer's site... not only that, appears to be a sleazy lawyer at that. This
    >>"cell phone and cancer" thing has been kicking around for years, and neither statistics or
    >>experimentation have proven a conclusive link, at all.
    >>
    >>Jon "Commander" Bond
    >
    >
    > I only said there are those who don't necessarily agree with the statement of RF not being a
    > cancer risk. There are plenty other "professional" views on both sides of this subject. Each
    > person can of course draw their own conclusion.
    >
    > BTW, what's with "Commander"? I see you use it all the time and wonder about it's origin.

    Nickname given to me by my Freshman/JV crew coach (he coached both, I happened to be a freshman on
    JV, so it all worked out). I was coxswain, so I was the commander of the ship, I guess. Just kinda
    stuck, some of my crew friends always call me commander now, the rest usually just call me Bond.

    become kinda a habit to type, but I should probably start phasing it out...

    Jon "Commande" Bond little by little....
     
  10. John Harlow

    John Harlow Guest

    > > BTW, what's with "Commander"? I see you use it all the time and wonder about it's origin.
    >
    >
    > Nickname given to me by my Freshman/JV crew coach (he coached both, I happened to be a freshman on
    > JV, so it all worked out). I was coxswain, so I was the commander of the ship, I guess. Just kinda
    > stuck, some of my crew friends always call me commander now, the rest usually just call me Bond.
    >
    > become kinda a habit to type, but I should probably start phasing it
    out...
    >
    > Jon "Commande" Bond little by little....

    That's cool.. I know how inertia can drive a nickname; friends have called me Nhoj for years and
    it's getting a little worn. It's also why I won't get a tattoo; it's hard to imagine my tastes in
    body art will never change.

    -Nho
     
  11. Bill Wheeler

    Bill Wheeler Guest

    On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 01:48:36 GMT, "Bob Jacobs" <[email protected]> wrote:

    [snip]
    >How powerful is this 'interference', and what about those people who have a helmet mounted light?
    >Yikes! I hope it doesn't fry their brains. There is NOTHING in the documentation or on the
    >NiteRider box about it emitting radio frequencies.
    >
    >I am taking my bike to an electrical specialist that Wes recommended, and see what frequency and
    >how powerful this thing is in the NightRider system.
    >
    >Anyone else have this problem or know how to solve this?
    >
    >Thanks, B
    >

    Jeeze man, just look a Carla and Jimbo. They has so0O much EMF (not to be confused with Ecstasy
    Muther Fvckers) that they were hallucinating about mole running about in the dead of winter on a
    snowy cold night.....as it turns out that mole was Bomba.

    Peace, Bill(no use going to sleep after getting paged)Wheeler The mind serves properly as a window
    glass rather than as a reflector, that is, the mind should give an immediate view instead of an
    interpretation of the world.
    :-]
     
  12. > BTW, what's with "Commander"? I see you use it all the time and wonder about it's origin.

    James Bond, when it suited his purposes, was a Commmander in the Royal Navy. See esp. the opening
    sequence in _You Only Live Twice_

    -Luigi Oddjob.
     
  13. Ron Hardin

    Ron Hardin Guest

    You might go back to analog flight decks. I had a real Piper Cub airspeed indicator on my handlebars
    long ago, with a bit of tube for a pitot tube.

    Downhill into a heavy wind it would actually indicate something. They don't do much up to about 40
    mph (airspeed) on an airplane either.

    I think a modern artificial horizon would be a nice addition on any bicycle.
    --
    Ron Hardin [email protected]

    On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
     
  14. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    Bob Jacobs <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I'll take it in this weekend to get it analyzed...
    >
    > Wes said the guy (avid bike rider also) can open up the light (NiteRider Blowtorch H.I.D.) and see
    > exactly what is emitting the signal with his
    test
    > equipment and how much signal it's putting out. He also said he can add something to the
    > electronics to block the signal..
    >
    > Yeah... I bet it's not putting out too much radiation to 'fry brains' really... But, we will see
    > Sunday..

    It's an arc light. The arc itself (bulb) is what will be emitting most of the RF - the first radio
    transmitting experiments were done using a simple spark gap.

    Shaun aRe - HTH.
     
  15. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    John Harlow <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains". If they weren't, we'd be
    > > screwed... you know all those radio stations? Yeah, all those radio waves are flying around you,
    > > all the time. They're far weaker than visible light, which can't hurt us either. Now, if it was
    > > emitting x-rays or gamma rays, that'd be bad....
    >
    > Not everyone agrees with that statement
    > http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/cell_phone_cancer_link.htm
    >
    > Technically this problem is categorized as EMI (Electromagnetic Induction) from the HID's
    > switchmode power supply.

    SMPsu's do give off inductive voltage spikes, but it's usually fairly well compensated for, as I
    said in my other post, a high voltage arc emits RF, and plenty at that - I'd look to the bulb for
    the source of the emitions myself.

    Shaun aRe - used to dealing with both EMFI and RFI.
     
  16. John Harlow

    John Harlow Guest

    > SMPsu's do give off inductive voltage spikes, but it's usually fairly well compensated for, as I
    > said in my other post, a high voltage arc emits RF, and plenty at that - I'd look to the bulb for
    > the source of the emitions myself.

    True 'nuf.

    > Shaun aRe - used to dealing with both EMFI and RFI.

    John Harlow - used to dealing with considerable noise from a.m-b as well
     
  17. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    John Harlow <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > SMPsu's do give off inductive voltage spikes, but it's usually fairly
    well
    > > compensated for, as I said in my other post, a high voltage arc emits
    RF,
    > > and plenty at that - I'd look to the bulb for the source of the emitions myself.
    >
    > True 'nuf.
    >
    >
    > > Shaun aRe - used to dealing with both EMFI and RFI.

    (I work with electronic ignition systems, and have played with my own 60,000 volt HT generator,
    which, especially when playing with the classic 'Jacob's ladder' messed up all the neighbours TV's,
    stereos, and telephones - heheheheheh!)

    > John Harlow - used to dealing with considerable noise from a.m-b as well

    Noise noise is good noise? ',;~}

    Shaun aRe
     
  18. John Harlow

    John Harlow Guest

    > (I work with electronic ignition systems, and have played with my own
    60,000
    > volt HT generator, which, especially when playing with the classic
    'Jacob's
    > ladder' messed up all the neighbours TV's, stereos, and telephones - heheheheheh!)

    Funny you mention this; right now I'm looking at a Jacob's ladder sitting on top of my TV I made
    from an old furnace transformer (only about 15kv). The thing I like about it most is the resultant
    expression on people's faces when I explain to them what it is.

    > > John Harlow - used to dealing with considerable noise from a.m-b as well
    >
    > Noise noise is good noise? ',;~}

    No reflection on you, mind you... ;)
     
  19. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    John Harlow <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    > > (I work with electronic ignition systems, and have played with my own
    > 60,000
    > > volt HT generator, which, especially when playing with the classic
    > 'Jacob's
    > > ladder' messed up all the neighbours TV's, stereos, and telephones - heheheheheh!)
    >
    > Funny you mention this; right now I'm looking at a Jacob's ladder sitting
    on
    > top of my TV I made from an old furnace transformer (only about 15kv).

    Cool! do you have to strike it up and rely on the comparitively high current to keep the arc
    burning? - That's what I've seen with some of them. The HT gen I made consisted of a variable
    frequency square wave generator, some phat (heh) power transistors driving 4x 1.5 Ohm car ignition
    coils, 2 pairs of 2 series connected (double voltage), then connected in paralell (double current).
    Like I said, 60 + Kv's - I've cut through glass sheet with it (glass conducts when moulten).

    > The thing I like about it most is the resultant expression on people's faces when I explain to
    > them what it is.

    Heheheheheh! I just used to get people running for their lives out of my garage! Especially when I'd
    just put the flying leads down on the bench, and let the spark travel through all the dust and crap,
    about 2 - 3 feet along the bench ',;~}

    > > > John Harlow - used to dealing with considerable noise from a.m-b as
    well
    > >
    > > Noise noise is good noise? ',;~}
    >
    > No reflection on you, mind you... ;)

    Of course not.

    Shaun aRe - So, you seen the big tesla projects then? (A search for 'tesla coils' will turn up many
    _very_ crazy people.....).
     
  20. John Harlow

    John Harlow Guest

    > > Funny you mention this; right now I'm looking at a Jacob's ladder
    sitting
    > on
    > > top of my TV I made from an old furnace transformer (only about 15kv).
    >
    > Cool! do you have to strike it up and rely on the comparitively high
    current
    > to keep the arc burning? - That's what I've seen with some of them. The HT gen I made consisted of
    > a variable frequency square wave generator, some phat (heh) power transistors driving 4x 1.5 Ohm
    > car ignition coils, 2
    pairs
    > of 2 series connected (double voltage), then connected in paralell (double current). Like I said,
    > 60 + Kv's - I've cut through glass sheet with it (glass conducts when moulten).

    Mine has no problem starting and maintaing an arc, but the inital gap is only about 1/4 inch and the
    top is about 1.5 inch. I like your design better - it'd be *really cool* though with "in your face"
    motor driven points - not your fancy newfangled "solid state" stuff! ;)

    > > The thing I like about it most is the resultant expression on people's faces when I explain to
    > > them what it is.
    >
    > Heheheheheh! I just used to get people running for their lives out of my garage! Especially when
    > I'd just put the flying leads down on the bench,
    and
    > let the spark travel through all the dust and crap, about 2 - 3 feet along the bench ',;~}

    I know that feeling well...

    > Shaun aRe - So, you seen the big tesla projects then? (A search for 'tesla coils' will turn up
    > many _very_ crazy people.....).

    We have a local mensa society here with some people dabbling in high energy experiments. I'm not in
    it, but I've met some of the craz.... uh.. "members" at the local industrial junk yard (we have a
    VERY cool junk yard close by with all kinds of mechanical / electrical / hydraulic / pneumatic
    devices to scrounge parts). They "ain't right" - but then again I'm there too... ;)
     
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