Shimano Wireless Flight Deck and NiteRider HID Light (Blowtorch) interference

[Shaun Rimmer]

John Harlow <[email protected]> wrote in message newswc_9.98148$AV4.2917@sccrnsc01...
> > > Funny you mention this; right now I'm looking at a Jacob's ladder
> sitting
> > on
> > > top of my TV I made from an old furnace transformer (only about 15kv).
> >
> > Cool! do you have to strike it up and rely on the comparitively high
> current
> > to keep the arc burning? - That's what I've seen with some of them. The
HT
> > gen I made consisted of a variable frequency square wave generator, some phat (heh) power
> > transistors driving 4x 1.5 Ohm car ignition coils, 2
> pairs
> > of 2 series connected (double voltage), then connected in paralell
(double
> > current). Like I said, 60 + Kv's - I've cut through glass sheet with it (glass conducts when
> > moulten).
>
> Mine has no problem starting and maintaing an arc, but the inital gap is only about 1/4 inch and
> the top is about 1.5 inch.

Cool! Mine starts off with a small gap, so I can get it to start at really quite high frequencies
(less HT at high f, because of the reduced dwell time).

> I like your design better - it'd be *really cool* though with "in your face" motor driven points -
> not your fancy newfangled "solid state" stuff!

Nah! How the hell am I gonna produce 100 Khz with a motor driven points set-up? ',;~}

> > > The thing I like about it most is the resultant expression on people's
faces
> > > when I explain to them what it is.
> >
> > Heheheheheh! I just used to get people running for their lives out of my garage! Especially when
> > I'd just put the flying leads down on the bench,
> and
> > let the spark travel through all the dust and ****, about 2 - 3 feet
along
> > the bench ',;~}
>
> I know that feeling well...

When I showed it to my cousin Doug, he'd put his can of beer down on top of a large multi pack of
cartoned orange juice thatwas on the next bench. I turned it on, he walked around behind me, and
reached for the can......oh man, I never seen beer and bodies move faster - I thought he was gonna
have a heart atack.....funny as hell to witness though......

> > Shaun aRe - So, you seen the big tesla projects then? (A search for
'tesla
> > coils' will turn up many _very_ crazy people.....).
>
> We have a local mensa society here with some people dabbling in high
energy
> experiments. I'm not in it, but I've met some of the craz.... uh.. "members" at the local
> industrial junk yard (we have a VERY cool junk yard close by with all kinds of mechanical /
> electrical / hydraulic / pneumatic devices to scrounge parts). They "ain't right" - but then again
> I'm there too...

Heheheheh, aye!

- I got a photo of a guy stood under a heeeeuge tesla coil, about 50 ft high or more, and the
'lightning' is striking the ground all around him....he _isn't_ inside a faraday cage.......if
that guy's still alive, it's a miracle......

Shaun aRe - cool picture though.........

 

[Peter Cole]

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> John Harlow <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Technically this problem is categorized as EMI (Electromagnetic Induction) from the HID's
> > switchmode power supply.
>
> SMPsu's do give off inductive voltage spikes, but it's usually fairly well compensated for, as I
> said in my other post, a high voltage arc emits RF, and plenty at that - I'd look to the bulb for
> the source of the emitions myself.

My halogen NiteRider will screw up my HRM when it's in one of its "dimmer" modes. It appears to be a
simple RFI problem. I doubt that it's the bulb that is creating the RFI, it's more likely that NR
didn't bother to shield the cables.

An arc lamp is not the same as a spark gap, and in any case it isn't the spark gap itself that
causes copious RF emissions from a spark gap transmitter, but the resonant circuit and the antenna
that the spark gap drives:

http://www.rod.beavon.clara.net/spark.htm

I'm sure the HID light, like the halogen lights in "dimmer" mode, use a PWM (pulse with modulation)
circuit to pulse the power to the light to control power level. It's the leading and trailing edges
of these pulses radiating RF energy on the cable from the power control unit to the light head
causing the RFI. Typically, HID lamps need a high striking voltage, but the running voltage is much
lower. Although it's higher than halogen bulb voltage, there's nothing else about HID bulbs that
makes them RF radiators.

 

[Jonathan Bond]

Luigi de Guzman wrote:
>>BTW, what's with "Commander"? I see you use it all the time and wonder about it's origin.
>
>
> James Bond, when it suited his purposes, was a Commmander in the Royal Navy. See esp. the opening
> sequence in _You Only Live Twice_
>
> -Luigi Oddjob.

Hmmmm.... no, no, thats not it, sorry.

Jon "Command" Bond

 

[Bob Jacobs]

I called Shimano customer service and they said, yes they know the problem with the two systems, and
my option is to get the 'wired' version of the flight deck. (Eh... wires?! )

I also contacted NiteRider and this is what they said:

-----Message From NiteRider----- Hi , I am sorry that your H.I.D. lamp interferes with your flight
control. The only N-R system that may not interfere is the classic plus system. Our engineers are
working on the problem but as of yet we haven't found a way to stop the interference.

yes we have done that (the faraday shield) but to get the shielding into the lamp is near imposable.
Also to make a faraday shield work it best the shield should "earthed" not just grounded.

Thanks again N.R.D. -----------End Message-----------

 

[Charly]

> Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains".
That would depend on how strong the radio waves were would it not?

 

[Jonathan Bond]

charly wrote:
>>Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains".
>
> That would depend on how strong the radio waves were would it not?
>
>

No. Electromagnetic radiation has properties of both particles and waves. In this case, it's more
like a particle. (see: photoelectric effect)

Example:

Brain = bowling pins radio waves = ping pong balls gamma rays = bowling balls

You can throw as many ping pong balls at the pins as you want, and its not gonna do anything. One
bowling ball is enough to wreak havoc though.

Thats like saying if I shine a UV-less light at your head for long enough (visible light is stronger
than radio waves), your brain will fry. Not gonna happen.

Jon "Commander" Bond

 

[Michael Dart]

"Bob Jacobs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I called Shimano customer service and they said, yes they know the problem with the two systems,
> and my option is to get the 'wired' version of the flight deck. (Eh... wires?! )
>
> I also contacted NiteRider and this is what they said:
>
> -----Message From NiteRider----- Hi , I am sorry that your H.I.D. lamp interferes with your flight
> control. The only N-R system that may not interfere is the classic plus system. Our engineers are
> working on the problem but as of yet we haven't found a way
to
> stop the interference.
>
> yes we have done that (the faraday shield) but to get the shielding into
the
> lamp is near imposable. Also to make a faraday shield work it best the shield should "earthed" not
> just grounded.
>
> Thanks again N.R.D. -----------End Message-----------
>

This is all very fascinating and all, BUT... can I add a little perspective? No? Well I'm gonna
anyway. ;^) If you're riding for a few hours at night on the same trails you do in the daylight and
you know the mileage already, why can't you live without the bike computer for that ride?

Mike

 

[Zilla]

Another reason I have a wired computer! I guess if I had wireless brakes and shifters, the computer
wires will start to bother me too.

--
- Zilla (Remove XSPAM)

"Bob Jacobs" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I called Shimano customer service and they said, yes they know the problem with the two systems,
> and my option is to get the 'wired' version of the flight deck. (Eh... wires?! )
>
> I also contacted NiteRider and this is what they said:
>
> -----Message From NiteRider----- Hi , I am sorry that your H.I.D. lamp interferes with your flight
> control. The only N-R system that may not interfere is the classic plus system. Our engineers are
> working on the problem but as of yet we haven't found a way
to
> stop the interference.
>
> yes we have done that (the faraday shield) but to get the shielding into
the
> lamp is near imposable. Also to make a faraday shield work it best the shield should "earthed" not
> just grounded.
>
> Thanks again N.R.D. -----------End Message-----------
>

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:30:22 GMT, Jonathan Bond <[email protected]> from Tufts
University wrote:

>charly wrote:
>>>Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains".
>>
>> That would depend on how strong the radio waves were would it not?
>>
>>
>
>No. Electromagnetic radiation has properties of both particles and waves. In this case, it's more
>like a particle. (see: photoelectric effect)
>
>Example:
>
>Brain = bowling pins radio waves = ping pong balls gamma rays = bowling balls
>
>You can throw as many ping pong balls at the pins as you want, and its not gonna do anything. One
>bowling ball is enough to wreak havoc though.
>
>Thats like saying if I shine a UV-less light at your head for long enough (visible light is
>stronger than radio waves), your brain will fry. Not gonna happen.

If you work on an operating 10,000-watt radio transmitter, you will get cooked. Radio transmission
is, obviously, energy. Pump enough energy through yourself, and you will roast. The reason you don't
roast from ambient radio waves is that their energy has dissipated.
--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace I feel like a wet parking meter on Darvon!
6:15:56 PM 30 January 2003

 

[Sorni]

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> This is all very fascinating and all, BUT... can I add a little
perspective?
> No? Well I'm gonna anyway. ;^) If you're riding for a few hours at night on the same trails you do
> in the daylight and you know the mileage already, why can't you live without the bike computer for
> that ride?

I was waiting for someone to say that! (Although JD might've been more, uh, colorful

Bill "used to inflate his stats on night rides due to Digital Pro 12E's making cyclometer read 25
mph when stopped" S.

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Jonathan Bond <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> charly wrote:
> >>Interesting, but radio waves are far too weak to "fry our brains".
> >
> > That would depend on how strong the radio waves were would it not?
> >
> >
>
> No. Electromagnetic radiation has properties of both particles and waves. In this case, it's more
> like a particle. (see: photoelectric effect)
>
> Example:
>
> Brain = bowling pins radio waves = ping pong balls gamma rays = bowling balls
>
> You can throw as many ping pong balls at the pins as you want, and its not gonna do anything. One
> bowling ball is enough to wreak havoc though.
>
> Thats like saying if I shine a UV-less light at your head for long enough (visible light is
> stronger than radio waves), your brain will fry. Not gonna happen.
>
> Jon "Commander" Bond

Yer a bit wrong there Commander - if you can cook meat with radio waves (and you can, look it up if
you like), you can cook a brain - try grabing hold of an antenna that has even just 100 watts of RF
disipating through it, and tell me your hand isn't sore afterwards ',;~}

Shaun aRe - BT, DT.....'ouch'.....

 

[Jake Khuon]

### On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:32:59 GMT, "Bob Jacobs" <[email protected]> [BJ] casually decided to
### expound upon rec.bicycles.misc the following thoughts about Re: UPDATE: Shimano Wireless Flight
### Deck and NiteRider HID Light (Blowtorch) interference:

BJ> I called Shimano customer service and they said, yes they know the problem with the two systems,
BJ> and my option is to get the 'wired' version of the flight deck. (Eh... wires?! )

I have the wireful mount on my MTB because my MTB has K2 SmartShocks and the piezoelectrics give off
enough signal to interfere with the wireless pickup.

--
/*===================[ Jake Khuon <[email protected]> ]======================+
| Packet Plumber, Network Engineers /| / [~ [~ |) | | --------------- | for Effective Bandwidth
| Utilisation / |/ [_ [_ |) |_| N E T W O R K S |
+=========================================================================*/

 

[John Harlow]

> I have the wireful mount on my MTB because my MTB has K2 SmartShocks and
the
> piezoelectrics give off enough signal to interfere with the wireless
pickup.
>
>
> --
> /*===================[ Jake Khuon
<[email protected]> ]======================+
> | Packet Plumber, Network Engineers /| / [~ [~ |) | | ---------------
|
> | for Effective Bandwidth Utilisation / |/ [_ [_ |) |_| N E T W O R K S
|
>
+=========================================================================*/

I dig the irony of your verbose sig promoting "Effective Bandwidth Utilisation"

 

[Jake Khuon]

### On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:08:51 GMT, "John Harlow" <[email protected]> [JH] casually decided to
### expound upon rec.bicycles.misc the following thoughts about Re: UPDATE: Shimano Wireless Flight
### Deck and NiteRider HID Light (Blowtorch) interference:

JH> I dig the irony of your verbose sig promoting "Effective Bandwidth Utilisation"

What irony? Utilisation != Conservation. |8^)

It's four lines as per convention. |8^) Besides... it's effective bandwidth utilisation for me. I'm
paying flat rate so idle pipes do me no good. |8^)

--
/*===================[ Jake Khuon <[email protected]> ]======================+
| Packet Plumber, Network Engineers /| / [~ [~ |) | | --------------- | for Effective Bandwidth
| Utilisation / |/ [_ [_ |) |_| N E T W O R K S |
+=========================================================================*/

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> I called Shimano customer service and they said, yes they know the problem with the two systems,
> and my option is to get the 'wired' version of the flight deck. (Eh... wires?! )
>
> I also contacted NiteRider and this is what they said:
>
> -----Message From NiteRider----- Hi , I am sorry that your H.I.D. lamp interferes with your flight
> control. The only N-R system that may not interfere is the classic plus system. Our engineers are
> working on the problem but as of yet we haven't found a way to stop the interference.
>
> yes we have done that (the faraday shield) but to get the shielding into the lamp is near
> imposable. Also to make a faraday shield work it best the shield should "earthed" not just
> grounded.
>
> Thanks again N.R.D. -----------End Message-----------
>
>
>
>
>

Maybe get the FCC to give nightrider a call.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Peter Cole]

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > I called Shimano customer service and they said, yes they know the problem with the two systems,
> > and my option is to get the 'wired' version of the flight deck. (Eh... wires?! )
> >
> > I also contacted NiteRider and this is what they said:
> >
> > -----Message From NiteRider----- Hi , I am sorry that your H.I.D. lamp interferes with your
> > flight control. The only N-R system that may not interfere is the classic plus system. Our
> > engineers are working on the problem but as of yet we haven't found a way
to
> > stop the interference.
> >
> > yes we have done that (the faraday shield) but to get the shielding into
the
> > lamp is near imposable. Also to make a faraday shield work it best the shield should "earthed"
> > not just grounded.
>>
>
> Maybe get the FCC to give nightrider a call.

They sound a little clueless. I did a lot of aerospace electrical circuit design (orbital).
Shielding was quite necessary (and common), even though "earthing" was obviously not an option.
Being the owner of a NiteRider light system, I have no trouble believing that their tech support
would spew stuff like that.

 

[Gary Muntz]

Hi, All -- I'm surprised at the number of apparently surprised readers. As far as I can tell,
wireless gear on bikes is generally flakey, at least in the presence of lights. I used to have a
Nashbar wireless computer, and it would get corrupted by a 3-LED blinker light! Such a blinker is
really low-power, and I'd guess it's non-inductive, though I never checked. I gave it up, and run
wires these days. Also, many posters seem to assume this is high-frequency stuff. I don't see why.
Sure, the antennas are small, but I'm not sure they're optimized for efficiency. Back when this was
vexing me, my guess was the F was as low as feasible. The thing that puzzles me these days is
whether a traffic signal inductive sensor can interfere with my niterider digital pro 12e (old style
LED model). I swear that at least twice, after a certain intersection, my light acted as if I'd
pressed it's control button. It's never been at all flakey nor acted this way anywhere else.

-- Gary.

 

[Nicholas & Domi]

It's amazing how much interference surrounds us. I can "hear" it on my AM walkman. When I'm at work
(near computers) I struggle to be able to even receive the radio. BTW - the Niterider charger
affects the TV in my house too - pulse...pulse...pulse....

nick

"Gary Muntz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]... Hi, All -- I'm
surprised at the number of apparently surprised readers. As far as I can tell, wireless gear on
bikes is generally flakey, at least in the presence of lights. I used to have a Nashbar wireless
computer, and it would get corrupted by a 3-LED blinker light! Such a blinker is really low-power,
and I'd guess it's non-inductive, though I never checked. I gave it up, and run wires these days.
Also, many posters seem to assume this is high-frequency stuff. I don't see why. Sure, the antennas
are small, but I'm not sure they're optimized for efficiency. Back when this was vexing me, my guess
was the F was as low as feasible. The thing that puzzles me these days is whether a traffic signal
inductive sensor can interfere with my niterider digital pro 12e (old style LED model). I swear that
at least twice, after a certain intersection, my light acted as if I'd pressed it's control button.
It's never been at all flakey nor acted this way anywhere else.

-- Gary.

 

[RINGO]

"Nicholas & Domino"

The names ring a bell.

Are you the same guys that email me a long time ago about NiteRider light's? Do you recall, I gave you guys information about the NiteRider Storm H.I.D, and how to connect 1 NiteRider 6v battery with 3 NiteRider taillight's?

Peace.

Ringo

 

[Nicholas & Domi]

hey Donald - I don't understand what this post is replying to it's me - nick

"RINGO" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
"Nicholas & Domino"

The names ring a bell.

Are you the same guys that email me a long time ago about NiteRider light's? Do you recall, I gave
you guys information about the NiteRider Storm H.I.D, and how to connect 1 NiteRider 6v battery with
3 NiteRider taillight's?

Peace.

Ringo

--
>--------------------------<
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