Short reach brakes on frame designed for long reach brakes



I have 2005 Campagnolo Centaur dual pivot calipers. The catalog lists
them as having a 42-52 mm range. I am considering purchasing a new
sport touring frame and have the option of getting one built for short
reach calipers or long reach calipers. Since I already own the Centaur
calipers I would prefer to use them on the new frame. But I also want
to run 25mm or 28mm tires AND fenders on the rear of the bike. Gilles
Berthoud or Honjo fenders. I can't keep fenders on the front wheel due
to my method of hauling the bike in the trunk of the car with the rear
seat folded down and the bars turned 90 degrees. I would have to put
the front fender on at the start of a multi-day ride. Front tire would
be 23mm or 25mm most likely, with or without fenders.

1. How well will dual pivot short reach brake calipers work on a frame
designed for long reach calipers?
2. What is the largest tire a short reach dual pivot caliper (Centaur)
will fit with a fender?

Note I am defining short reach as what is currently sold in brake
calipers, current Record, Chorus, Dura Ace, etc. Short reach being
approximately 40-50mm range. And defining long reach as the newly
marketed calipers designed for larger tires and fenders. Examples
being Shimano BR-R600 and Nashbar/Tektro Long Reach calipers.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> I have 2005 Campagnolo Centaur dual pivot calipers. The catalog lists
> them as having a 42-52 mm range. I am considering purchasing a new
> sport touring frame and have the option of getting one built for short
> reach calipers or long reach calipers. Since I already own the Centaur
> calipers I would prefer to use them on the new frame. But I also want
> to run 25mm or 28mm tires AND fenders on the rear of the bike. Gilles
> Berthoud or Honjo fenders. I can't keep fenders on the front wheel due
> to my method of hauling the bike in the trunk of the car with the rear
> seat folded down and the bars turned 90 degrees. I would have to put
> the front fender on at the start of a multi-day ride. Front tire would
> be 23mm or 25mm most likely, with or without fenders.
>
> 1. How well will dual pivot short reach brake calipers work on a frame
> designed for long reach calipers?
> 2. What is the largest tire a short reach dual pivot caliper (Centaur)
> will fit with a fender?
>
> Note I am defining short reach as what is currently sold in brake
> calipers, current Record, Chorus, Dura Ace, etc. Short reach being
> approximately 40-50mm range. And defining long reach as the newly
> marketed calipers designed for larger tires and fenders. Examples
> being Shimano BR-R600 and Nashbar/Tektro Long Reach calipers.


I don't know specifics, but having a look at my bike

http://arbitrary.org/centaur.jpg

it seems like things would be pretty tight. Depends upon the bridge
height (notice my pad position), but even with a higher bridge, I think
the width near the center at the pivot might be too tight for fenders
and 25mm tires with room for mud and gunk. The tires in the pic are
23mm Veloflex Pave.

Joseph
 
[email protected] wrote:
> I have 2005 Campagnolo Centaur dual pivot calipers. The catalog lists
> them as having a 42-52 mm range. I am considering purchasing a new
> sport touring frame and have the option of getting one built for short
> reach calipers or long reach calipers. Since I already own the Centaur
> calipers I would prefer to use them on the new frame. But I also want
> to run 25mm or 28mm tires AND fenders on the rear of the bike. Gilles
> Berthoud or Honjo fenders. I can't keep fenders on the front wheel due
> to my method of hauling the bike in the trunk of the car with the rear
> seat folded down and the bars turned 90 degrees. I would have to put
> the front fender on at the start of a multi-day ride. Front tire would
> be 23mm or 25mm most likely, with or without fenders.
>
> 1. How well will dual pivot short reach brake calipers work on a frame
> designed for long reach calipers?
> 2. What is the largest tire a short reach dual pivot caliper (Centaur)
> will fit with a fender?
>
> Note I am defining short reach as what is currently sold in brake
> calipers, current Record, Chorus, Dura Ace, etc. Short reach being
> approximately 40-50mm range. And defining long reach as the newly
> marketed calipers designed for larger tires and fenders. Examples
> being Shimano BR-R600 and Nashbar/Tektro Long Reach calipers.


Not sure of how well short reach brakes will work with fat tires and
fenders. However, you can get a pair of nice, functional long reach
calipers at nashbar for very little. Here is the link:

http://www.nashbar.com/results.cfm?...ry=1014&storetype=&estoreid=&init=y&pagename=
You can then sell you short reach calipers at ebay or the marketplace.

Andres
 
[email protected] wrote:
<snip>
>
> 1. How well will dual pivot short reach brake calipers work on a frame
> designed for long reach calipers?


Not well. short reach are generally 42-52mm range, standard reach are
in the 47-57mm range. If the frame is properly built to take advantage
of the standard reach calipers (set at the bottom of the slot at 57mm),
the short reach calipers will require a drop bolt to reach.

> 2. What is the largest tire a short reach dual pivot caliper (Centaur)
> will fit with a fender?


Again, depends on the frame. My road frame is set up for short reach
calipers (older shimano 105 dual pivots in my case), but set so the
pads are at the bottom of the slot. I can fit a 25mm avocet fasgrip
under a slightly modified fender. But it's very tight. And I had to
notch the sides of the fender to clear the brake arms. Campy brakes
look like they have even less clearance than the shimanos.

If I were you, I'd sell the campy brakes on ebay and use the money to
buy a pair of proper standard reach tektros. If you are even thinking
about touring and fenders, it's worth it.

-Tim
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have 2005 Campagnolo Centaur dual pivot calipers. The catalog lists
> them as having a 42-52 mm range. I am considering purchasing a new
> sport touring frame and have the option of getting one built for short
> reach calipers or long reach calipers. Since I already own the Centaur
> calipers I would prefer to use them on the new frame. But I also want
> to run 25mm or 28mm tires AND fenders on the rear of the bike. Gilles
> Berthoud or Honjo fenders. I can't keep fenders on the front wheel due
> to my method of hauling the bike in the trunk of the car with the rear
> seat folded down and the bars turned 90 degrees. I would have to put
> the front fender on at the start of a multi-day ride. Front tire would
> be 23mm or 25mm most likely, with or without fenders.
>
> 1. How well will dual pivot short reach brake calipers work on a frame
> designed for long reach calipers?
> 2. What is the largest tire a short reach dual pivot caliper (Centaur)
> will fit with a fender?
>
> Note I am defining short reach as what is currently sold in brake
> calipers, current Record, Chorus, Dura Ace, etc. Short reach being
> approximately 40-50mm range. And defining long reach as the newly
> marketed calipers designed for larger tires and fenders. Examples
> being Shimano BR-R600 and Nashbar/Tektro Long Reach calipers.
>


If you really want to use these brakes, get the frame spec'ed for short
reach. You won't gain any clearance if you use these brakes with drop bolts,
which you'd need to do to get the pads to reach the rims.

If you want to preserve the Italian pedigree of the gruppo, Ambrosio sells
some really nice long-reach brakes. For all I know, they may be rebadged
Taiwanese (I don't think they're Tektros, though), but they have an Italian
name on them. I've got a set on my Peugeot, and I like them a whole bunch.
I've run them with 28mm tires and SKS fenders, and 32mm cyclocross tires w/o
fenders.

I don't know of any US dealers, but I got mine from
http://cyclingbargains.com - a UK-based seller. They list for 28 quid, but
minus VAT and plus shipping, I'd guess they're about $65 to get the US. They
come in silver and "carbon finish," which is just painted to look like
carbon, AFAICT.

Definitely not as pretty as your Centaur calipers, but a helluva lot more
useful for the setup you're describing.
 
buckyllama wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > 1. How well will dual pivot short reach brake calipers work on a frame
> > designed for long reach calipers?

>
> Not well. short reach are generally 42-52mm range, standard reach are
> in the 47-57mm range. If the frame is properly built to take advantage
> of the standard reach calipers (set at the bottom of the slot at 57mm),
> the short reach calipers will require a drop bolt to reach.


Didn't think about that. On the bike designed for long reach calipers
if Mercian puts the brake bridge in so its high and uses the full
advantage of the long reach brakes to get as big of a tire as possible
and fenders, then short reach calipers will not fit at all. But on a
long reach caliper designed bike if Mercian puts the brake bridge low
to allow use of a short reach caliper at its limits then the size of
tire and fender is reduced for a long reach caliper. This would sort
of defeat the purpose of having a frame designed for long reach
calipers.

>
> > 2. What is the largest tire a short reach dual pivot caliper (Centaur)
> > will fit with a fender?

>
> Again, depends on the frame. My road frame is set up for short reach
> calipers (older shimano 105 dual pivots in my case), but set so the
> pads are at the bottom of the slot. I can fit a 25mm avocet fasgrip
> under a slightly modified fender. But it's very tight. And I had to
> notch the sides of the fender to clear the brake arms. Campy brakes
> look like they have even less clearance than the shimanos.


25mm tires and fenders would probably be OK for 99% of my intended uses
for the bike but I would want the option of running a 28mm tire and
fenders. Never more than 28mm though on this frame. I have a loaded
touring bike with 35mm tires and fenders.

>
> If I were you, I'd sell the campy brakes on ebay and use the money to
> buy a pair of proper standard reach tektros. If you are even thinking
> about touring and fenders, it's worth it.


But I already own the Centaur brakes and they go with all of the other
Centaur components on the bike. Putting on cheap Tektro or Nashbar
long reach brakes for $30 would be unaesthetic. And the Shimano
BR-R600 long reach brakes are $140 a pair! I suspect cheapness would
win and I'd go for the Nashbar long reach brakes.


>
> -Tim
 
[email protected] wrote:
> buckyllama wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > 1. How well will dual pivot short reach brake calipers work on a frame
> > > designed for long reach calipers?

> >
> > Not well. short reach are generally 42-52mm range, standard reach are
> > in the 47-57mm range. If the frame is properly built to take advantage
> > of the standard reach calipers (set at the bottom of the slot at 57mm),
> > the short reach calipers will require a drop bolt to reach.

>
> Didn't think about that. On the bike designed for long reach calipers
> if Mercian puts the brake bridge in so its high and uses the full
> advantage of the long reach brakes to get as big of a tire as possible
> and fenders, then short reach calipers will not fit at all. But on a
> long reach caliper designed bike if Mercian puts the brake bridge low
> to allow use of a short reach caliper at its limits then the size of
> tire and fender is reduced for a long reach caliper. This would sort
> of defeat the purpose of having a frame designed for long reach
> calipers.
>
> >
> > > 2. What is the largest tire a short reach dual pivot caliper (Centaur)
> > > will fit with a fender?

> >
> > Again, depends on the frame. My road frame is set up for short reach
> > calipers (older shimano 105 dual pivots in my case), but set so the
> > pads are at the bottom of the slot. I can fit a 25mm avocet fasgrip
> > under a slightly modified fender. But it's very tight. And I had to
> > notch the sides of the fender to clear the brake arms. Campy brakes
> > look like they have even less clearance than the shimanos.

>
> 25mm tires and fenders would probably be OK for 99% of my intended uses
> for the bike but I would want the option of running a 28mm tire and
> fenders. Never more than 28mm though on this frame. I have a loaded
> touring bike with 35mm tires and fenders.
>
> >
> > If I were you, I'd sell the campy brakes on ebay and use the money to
> > buy a pair of proper standard reach tektros. If you are even thinking
> > about touring and fenders, it's worth it.

>
> But I already own the Centaur brakes and they go with all of the other
> Centaur components on the bike. Putting on cheap Tektro or Nashbar
> long reach brakes for $30 would be unaesthetic. And the Shimano
> BR-R600 long reach brakes are $140 a pair! I suspect cheapness would
> win and I'd go for the Nashbar long reach brakes.


See if you can get drop bolts. That seems to be the only option if you
want the frame designed for long reach calipers -- other than the
non-aesthetic option of Tectro or Shimano, etc., cheap-o long reach
brakes. I would go with that frame design, too, if you expect to run
full fenders with real 25mm or 28mm tires.

Also, does Campy make a Centaur-like standard reach brake? That would
be a mone-spending option. -- Jay Beattie.
 
Hank Wirtz wrote:
>
> I don't know of any US dealers, but I got mine from
> http://cyclingbargains.com - a UK-based seller. They list for 28 quid, but
> minus VAT and plus shipping, I'd guess they're about $65 to get the US. They
> come in silver and "carbon finish," which is just painted to look like
> carbon, AFAICT.
>


These?
http://www.rainbowinternet.net/shops/cyclingbargains/catalogue/category23/p1081
??

I'll bet you a dollar that they're rebadged Tektros. The shape of the
arms and the pad adjustment look like these:
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=69&subcategory=1014&brand=&sku=11499


Jeff
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Putting on cheap Tektro or Nashbar
>long reach brakes for $30 would be unaesthetic.


Other than the lack of the proper "gruppo decal", I don't think
there's much to be lost with the Tektro "nice" long-reach calipers
(the R730, or 521AG, both of which have the same reach as the Shimano
R600, but cost 1/2 to 2/3rds as much). They're really quite nice
looking, IMHO. It would no doubt be a simple thing to remove the
Tektro decals if that is an issue.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
[email protected] says...

> But I already own the Centaur brakes and they go with all of the other
> Centaur components on the bike. Putting on cheap Tektro or Nashbar
> long reach brakes for $30 would be unaesthetic. And the Shimano
> BR-R600 long reach brakes are $140 a pair! I suspect cheapness would
> win and I'd go for the Nashbar long reach brakes.


But some people who buy bikes with the Tektro stock pay to upgrade to
Shimano, claiming much better braking performance.
 
JeffWills wrote:
> Hank Wirtz wrote:
> >
> > I don't know of any US dealers, but I got mine from
> > http://cyclingbargains.com - a UK-based seller. They list for 28 quid, but
> > minus VAT and plus shipping, I'd guess they're about $65 to get the US. They
> > come in silver and "carbon finish," which is just painted to look like
> > carbon, AFAICT.
> >

>
> These?
> http://www.rainbowinternet.net/shops/cyclingbargains/catalogue/category23/p1081
> ??
>
> I'll bet you a dollar that they're rebadged Tektros. The shape of the
> arms and the pad adjustment look like these:
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=69&subcategory=1014&brand=&sku=11499
>
>
> Jeff


I'm not saying they are not both made by Tektro, but the two photos
show that the two are significantly different.

Joseph
 
[email protected] wrote:
> JeffWills wrote:
> > Hank Wirtz wrote:
> >
> > These?
> > http://www.rainbowinternet.net/shops/cyclingbargains/catalogue/category23/p1081
> > ??
> >
> > I'll bet you a dollar that they're rebadged Tektros. The shape of the
> > arms and the pad adjustment look like these:
> > http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=69&subcategory=1014&brand=&sku=11499
> >
> > Jeff

>
> I'm not saying they are not both made by Tektro, but the two photos
> show that the two are significantly different.


There are or were two different styles of Tektro long
reach brake. The regular flavor looks like the Nashbar
picture, and the extra-sprinkles waffle-cone flavor has
cartridge pads and a nicer barrel adjuster with a rubber
ring, like the R536 (used to be 521A?) here:
http://www.tektro.com/02products/08521ag.php
which looks more like the Ambrosio.

I have one of the 521A extra-sprinkle brakes, used to adapt
an old Cannondale touring frame from 27" to 700c. It
works quite well. However, the original pads were made of
cheese, and I replaced them with Koolstop shimano
cartridges (the cartridge holders are Shimano compatible).
 
Jay Beattie wrote:

> See if you can get drop bolts. That seems to be the only option if you
> want the frame designed for long reach calipers -- other than the
> non-aesthetic option of Tectro or Shimano, etc., cheap-o long reach
> brakes.


What's cheapo or non-aesthetic about the Shimano R-600 brakes? These
are Ultegra level.

http://www.awcycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m5b0s100p1338&z=441

Art Harris
 
[email protected] wrote:
> I have 2005 Campagnolo Centaur dual pivot calipers. The catalog lists
> them as having a 42-52 mm range. I am considering purchasing a new
> sport touring frame and have the option of getting one built for short
> reach calipers or long reach calipers. Since I already own the Centaur
> calipers I would prefer to use them on the new frame. But I also want
> to run 25mm or 28mm tires AND fenders on the rear of the bike. Gilles
> Berthoud or Honjo fenders. I can't keep fenders on the front wheel due
> to my method of hauling the bike in the trunk of the car with the rear
> seat folded down and the bars turned 90 degrees. I would have to put
> the front fender on at the start of a multi-day ride. Front tire would
> be 23mm or 25mm most likely, with or without fenders.
>
> 1. How well will dual pivot short reach brake calipers work on a frame
> designed for long reach calipers?


Not well at all, if you want the brake blocks to reach the rims.


> 2. What is the largest tire a short reach dual pivot caliper (Centaur)
> will fit with a fender?


If at all....long reach are for fenders...just step up and buy new
brakes. Long reach Tektros work well and are not expensive.
>
> Note I am defining short reach as what is currently sold in brake
> calipers, current Record, Chorus, Dura Ace, etc. Short reach being
> approximately 40-50mm range. And defining long reach as the newly
> marketed calipers designed for larger tires and fenders. Examples
> being Shimano BR-R600 and Nashbar/Tektro Long Reach calipers.
 
Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Putting on cheap Tektro or Nashbar
>>long reach brakes for $30 would be unaesthetic.

>
>Other than the lack of the proper "gruppo decal", I don't think
>there's much to be lost with the Tektro "nice" long-reach calipers
>(the R730, or 521AG, both of which have the same reach as the Shimano
>R600, but cost 1/2 to 2/3rds as much). They're really quite nice
>looking, IMHO. It would no doubt be a simple thing to remove the
>Tektro decals if that is an issue.


Yes, I'm following up on my own post, but only because I realized I
was comparing single caliper pricing for the R600 brakes to set
pricing for Tektro... which means the cost for the Tektro brakes is
actually 25-30% that of the Shimano R600.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Barnard Frederick <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...
>
>> But I already own the Centaur brakes and they go with all of the other
>> Centaur components on the bike. Putting on cheap Tektro or Nashbar
>> long reach brakes for $30 would be unaesthetic. And the Shimano
>> BR-R600 long reach brakes are $140 a pair! I suspect cheapness would
>> win and I'd go for the Nashbar long reach brakes.

>
>But some people who buy bikes with the Tektro stock pay to upgrade to
>Shimano, claiming much better braking performance.


And others will pay to "upgrade" to all kinds of other things that
don't actually improve anything (often, just the opposite). I've
certainly never had a negative report on the few bikes that I've sold
with Tektro brakes (normally for those who need long-reach calipers,
but don't want to pay R600 pricing).

I'd actually be quite surprised if there was a "real difference"...
it's all about mechanical advantage and pads, and the brakes look
almost identical in terms of geometry and reach.. Even if the pads
weren't the best (don't know that they're not fine), replace them with
Kool-stop (or other quality brake pad) and there's no reason to
believe the braking performance wouldn't be at least as good as the
more expensive R600 (since they come with pads that aren't generally
as well-liked as the Kool-stop).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email protected]>,
Barnard Frederick <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] says...
>
>> But I already own the Centaur brakes and they go with all of the other
>> Centaur components on the bike. Putting on cheap Tektro or Nashbar
>> long reach brakes for $30 would be unaesthetic. And the Shimano
>> BR-R600 long reach brakes are $140 a pair! I suspect cheapness would
>> win and I'd go for the Nashbar long reach brakes.

>
>But some people who buy bikes with the Tektro stock pay to upgrade to
>Shimano, claiming much better braking performance.


In my experience there is no difference between top end Tektro
and shimano, that can't be fixed by new pads[1] and better
cable routing. Tektro brakes work well enough that I don't
feel the need to upgrade. Of course if you spend 4x to get
new brakes they are going to be "better".

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- The stock pads are terrible, you need to factor in the price
of new pads when comparing brakes.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBRNtCrWTWTAjn5N/lAQEGhwP7Bt/hlMF7UBocmJ5XUYwPbi1Wqycrzayu
BsDBr85rX3VruEbD0Vd5pzCN70+P/iTFixrQHQ1ZkqyWU6Ry8nsVnRXZ73/ZFYBg
3yc7XRpgXgueGUzapqqOagsSf48NyW7RzjVOmH7Yovzf3FLDBP2yC9UenOp/ne6Y
ftN2SY+ny5Q=
=MZvh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
Mark Hickey wrote:
> Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >[email protected] wrote:
> >
> >> Putting on cheap Tektro or Nashbar
> >>long reach brakes for $30 would be unaesthetic.

> >
> >Other than the lack of the proper "gruppo decal", I don't think
> >there's much to be lost with the Tektro "nice" long-reach calipers
> >(the R730, or 521AG, both of which have the same reach as the Shimano
> >R600, but cost 1/2 to 2/3rds as much). They're really quite nice
> >looking, IMHO. It would no doubt be a simple thing to remove the
> >Tektro decals if that is an issue.

>
> Yes, I'm following up on my own post, but only because I realized I
> was comparing single caliper pricing for the R600 brakes to set
> pricing for Tektro... which means the cost for the Tektro brakes is
> actually 25-30% that of the Shimano R600.
>
> Mark Hickey
> Habanero Cycles
> http://www.habcycles.com
> Home of the $795 ti frame



I looked up the Tektro brakes and the upper levels don't look too bad.
Good enough to go with a wonderful silver Centaur grouppo on a lovely
lugged Mercian.

Nashbar long reach caliper is the Tektro 521A with standard pads.
http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=BR7304
$40 pair.
http://www.nashbar.com/profile_moreimages.cfm?category=69&subcategory=1014&sku=11499&brand=
$30 pair.

Tektro 521AG with cartridge holders is nicer looking with the silver
cartridge holders adn the silver cam quick release.
http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=BR7301
$50 pair.

Tektro R730 are the nicest looking of all, except for the ugly black
cam quick release on an otherwise all silver brake.
http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=BR7308
$64 pair.

And of course the Shimano BR-R600 calipers at $140 pair.
http://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?...rs+Long+Reach&vendorCode=SHIM&major=1&minor=7

I suppose the upper level Tektros will look good enough. And at a good
enough price. And I suppose I can maybe replace the ugly black cam
quick release lever on the R730 with the silver one from some Sora
capilers I have sitting around.
 
Art Harris wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> > See if you can get drop bolts. That seems to be the only option if you
> > want the frame designed for long reach calipers -- other than the
> > non-aesthetic option of Tectro or Shimano, etc., cheap-o long reach
> > brakes.

>
> What's cheapo or non-aesthetic about the Shimano R-600 brakes? These
> are Ultegra level.
>
> http://www.awcycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m5b0s100p1338&z=441



I have no problem with them. The OP did. They were not "aesthetic."
See above. -- Jay Beattie.
 
Jay Beattie wrote:
> > > See if you can get drop bolts. That seems to be the only option if you
> > > want the frame designed for long reach calipers -- other than the
> > > non-aesthetic option of Tectro or Shimano, etc., cheap-o long reach
> > > brakes.

> >
> > What's cheapo or non-aesthetic about the Shimano R-600 brakes? These
> > are Ultegra level.
> >
> > http://www.awcycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m5b0s100p1338&z=441

>
>
> I have no problem with them. The OP did. They were not "aesthetic."
> See above. -- Jay Beattie.


No, he was complaining that the Tektro/Nashbar brakes were
un-aesthetic. He said the R-600 were too expensive.

Actually, I bought a rear R-600 caliper on sale from Nashbar at pretty
good price about a year ago (forget exactly what it was, maybe $30).

Art Harris