cfblakeman said:
they all should finish w/the same time while holding hands....
dead on vspa
great points swampy
Should Contador Have Held Back for Schleck?
- Thread starter Ted B
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they all should finish w/the same time while holding hands....
dead on vspa
great points swampy
Hello there. My first post here
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Ofcourse not. It's all part of racing.
Armstrong needs to stop the Contador hate. Armstrong didn't wait to see even if Beloki was fine when Beloki crashed so hard in the descent years ago. Double standards for sure.
When Armstrong himself had issues in this tour his friends from the Saxo bank all tried to make him lose lots of time as well. Which is fine to me.
.Ofcourse not. It's all part of racing.
Armstrong needs to stop the Contador hate. Armstrong didn't wait to see even if Beloki was fine when Beloki crashed so hard in the descent years ago. Double standards for sure.
When Armstrong himself had issues in this tour his friends from the Saxo bank all tried to make him lose lots of time as well. Which is fine to me.
It seems that the two sides to this are fairly heated and evenly split. Maybe this is what you can have happen if you're going to have "unwritten rules" that will be subjectively interpreted.
I don't think Contador should have been booed, but I still think he would have gained major respect if he just ceased the attack. Menchov said he followed Contador when he attacked, so possibly he and Sanchez would have held back and paced Contador if he let up. Just speculation, so we'll never know. In fact it is all speculation on what could have been, so ultimately it is futile to debate it. As I said earlier, it will certainly add to the drama for the rest of the race.
I don't think Contador should have been booed, but I still think he would have gained major respect if he just ceased the attack. Menchov said he followed Contador when he attacked, so possibly he and Sanchez would have held back and paced Contador if he let up. Just speculation, so we'll never know. In fact it is all speculation on what could have been, so ultimately it is futile to debate it. As I said earlier, it will certainly add to the drama for the rest of the race.
He couldn't have known exactly why, but when he passed Andy, Andy had practically completely stopped, so Contador definitely knew something was wrong. What other explanation could there be for completely stopping your bike in the middle of an attack?HamFrancisco said:
As Chris Boardman mentioned on ITV4 in UK last night after the incident:
"Every rider has the option of having a 'chainguard' to stop the chain from 'dropping off', it is their decision not to use such equipment, Schleck chose not to. In all fairness, it's probably an extra 50gm weight on the bike, which is why most riders choose not to have these guards in place, but it's still an option"
Imo, Schleck attacked, Contador followed, Schleck's mechanical, Contador carried on, should he have carried on attacking whilst Schleck was in trouble, probably not, but it's not against the rules, it's just classed as unsporting and a lack of respect, plus the fact when interviewed afterwards, Contador goes on record by saying "I did not see Schleck have a mechanical problem"....dumba$$ Contador, you were behind him when it happened you eejit.
"Every rider has the option of having a 'chainguard' to stop the chain from 'dropping off', it is their decision not to use such equipment, Schleck chose not to. In all fairness, it's probably an extra 50gm weight on the bike, which is why most riders choose not to have these guards in place, but it's still an option"
Imo, Schleck attacked, Contador followed, Schleck's mechanical, Contador carried on, should he have carried on attacking whilst Schleck was in trouble, probably not, but it's not against the rules, it's just classed as unsporting and a lack of respect, plus the fact when interviewed afterwards, Contador goes on record by saying "I did not see Schleck have a mechanical problem"....dumba$$ Contador, you were behind him when it happened you eejit.
Most of you who are saying nobody should stop are doing it from a philosophical point of view - you simply think people should race regardless of the equipment issues. Fine, great opinion, but irrelevant here.
Contador knew full well that he should not ride away from the yellow jersey, he agreed with it, then he violated it. He NEVER said it's stupid to wait for the yellow in trouble - he knows that attitude is suicide in the peleton. His first claim after the race wasn't that it is a bad unwritten rule that he doesn't agree with, but that he didn't see the yellow in trouble, implying with certainty that he agrees with the tradition and would have stopped if he had known.
The problem with his interview afterwards is that it sounds like Bill Clinton saying he didn't have sex with that woman, or "it all depends on what the definition of is, is". To say as a seasoned professional fixated on the guy in front of him that he didn't see Schleck's back wheel jump off the ground then lose all power, didn't hear anything, and apparently didn't have a race radio to hear from his team car is beyond ludicrous. He KNEW, his team car affirmed it in his ear, and he took off, in complete disregard for his own acknowledgment that you don't ride away from the yellow in trouble.
Then in his YouTube excuse-fest, he realized the "I didn't know" defense was indeed ridiculous and he changed his tune to, "The race was on and maybe I made a mistake. I'm sorry. In those moments all you think about is to go as fast as you can."
A man's character isn't revealed by common circumstances, but in the heat of the moment - what he does when he ISN'T thinking - that's the real person. Contador revealed, once again, who he is yesterday. The same guy who rode away from his team early in the Tour last year when everyone was supposed to ride together, and the same guy who rode away from Kloden later in the race last year and cost his team a 1, 2, 3 finish (same excuse last year - "I thought Kloden was coming with me", when he could see clearly he wasn't).
So we have two arguments here - 1) should racers wait for the yellow jersey and under what circumstances, and 2) did Contador know the unwritten rule, believe it, accept it, and then thumb his nose at it.
The first conversation should be held somewhere else because it is irrelevant to Contador's actions. He knew it and agreed with it and thumbed his nose at it. And that self-centered reaction is consistent with the same Contador we saw last year - it's all about me.
A man who is willing to win at all costs to his character is not a champion, and he will go down as an asterisk in Tour history for it.
Contador knew full well that he should not ride away from the yellow jersey, he agreed with it, then he violated it. He NEVER said it's stupid to wait for the yellow in trouble - he knows that attitude is suicide in the peleton. His first claim after the race wasn't that it is a bad unwritten rule that he doesn't agree with, but that he didn't see the yellow in trouble, implying with certainty that he agrees with the tradition and would have stopped if he had known.
The problem with his interview afterwards is that it sounds like Bill Clinton saying he didn't have sex with that woman, or "it all depends on what the definition of is, is". To say as a seasoned professional fixated on the guy in front of him that he didn't see Schleck's back wheel jump off the ground then lose all power, didn't hear anything, and apparently didn't have a race radio to hear from his team car is beyond ludicrous. He KNEW, his team car affirmed it in his ear, and he took off, in complete disregard for his own acknowledgment that you don't ride away from the yellow in trouble.
Then in his YouTube excuse-fest, he realized the "I didn't know" defense was indeed ridiculous and he changed his tune to, "The race was on and maybe I made a mistake. I'm sorry. In those moments all you think about is to go as fast as you can."
A man's character isn't revealed by common circumstances, but in the heat of the moment - what he does when he ISN'T thinking - that's the real person. Contador revealed, once again, who he is yesterday. The same guy who rode away from his team early in the Tour last year when everyone was supposed to ride together, and the same guy who rode away from Kloden later in the race last year and cost his team a 1, 2, 3 finish (same excuse last year - "I thought Kloden was coming with me", when he could see clearly he wasn't).
So we have two arguments here - 1) should racers wait for the yellow jersey and under what circumstances, and 2) did Contador know the unwritten rule, believe it, accept it, and then thumb his nose at it.
The first conversation should be held somewhere else because it is irrelevant to Contador's actions. He knew it and agreed with it and thumbed his nose at it. And that self-centered reaction is consistent with the same Contador we saw last year - it's all about me.
A man who is willing to win at all costs to his character is not a champion, and he will go down as an asterisk in Tour history for it.
It seems some people need educating in the ways of cycling.
forget the notion of using motor racing as an analogy for a start as the competition is between cars not men. The whole point of motor racing is they may or may not break down in a race , motor racing started when manufacturers tried to prove whos' product was the best.
Forget Belokis fall as he was not wearing yellow.
The cycling ettiquete stems from not attacking the wearer of the YELLOW jersey when he has problems.
Cycling ettiquette also dictates that team members surrender their bikes to the leader if needed and that noone should attack the race when it is going through a feed station or the leader needs to answer the call of nature.
Maybe thats the problem. Maybe by engineering cycle racing to be as near a contest of mano a mano as possible that has led to the search for more performance through drugs. Or maybe its just so damm hard people take drugs to make it feel easier.
If anyone really wants to see races decided by teams who attack when their rivals are collecting their lunch or relieving their bowels then sure go ahead and support Contador .
Contador himself has apologised for his actions which all really hinge around the fact of wether he had realised Schlek was in trouble.
If someone attacked in front of you and you were following them and you saw their bike hop and the rider ahead suddenly slow to a stop in an unusual manner would you think , 'blimey he ran out of gas pretty quick' or would you think as a pro rider of many thousands of miles experience . . 'Oh schleks gears just fouled'.
Contador sat up and rode past Schlek sat down so he knew schleks attack had come to an unusually abrupt end. I'm wondering if he got a message through his team radio to attack.
Of course he can't admit that without admiting he knew Schlek was in trouble.
I think Schleks team car need to come clean about what they knew and what Contador knew and when.
forget the notion of using motor racing as an analogy for a start as the competition is between cars not men. The whole point of motor racing is they may or may not break down in a race , motor racing started when manufacturers tried to prove whos' product was the best.
Forget Belokis fall as he was not wearing yellow.
The cycling ettiquete stems from not attacking the wearer of the YELLOW jersey when he has problems.
Cycling ettiquette also dictates that team members surrender their bikes to the leader if needed and that noone should attack the race when it is going through a feed station or the leader needs to answer the call of nature.
Maybe thats the problem. Maybe by engineering cycle racing to be as near a contest of mano a mano as possible that has led to the search for more performance through drugs. Or maybe its just so damm hard people take drugs to make it feel easier.
If anyone really wants to see races decided by teams who attack when their rivals are collecting their lunch or relieving their bowels then sure go ahead and support Contador .
Contador himself has apologised for his actions which all really hinge around the fact of wether he had realised Schlek was in trouble.
If someone attacked in front of you and you were following them and you saw their bike hop and the rider ahead suddenly slow to a stop in an unusual manner would you think , 'blimey he ran out of gas pretty quick' or would you think as a pro rider of many thousands of miles experience . . 'Oh schleks gears just fouled'.
Contador sat up and rode past Schlek sat down so he knew schleks attack had come to an unusually abrupt end. I'm wondering if he got a message through his team radio to attack.
Of course he can't admit that without admiting he knew Schlek was in trouble.
I think Schleks team car need to come clean about what they knew and what Contador knew and when.
AS was NEVER going to gap AC; not on that stage or any other stage. He's just not strong enough.
When, not IF, AC beats AS by 31+ secs in the TT, all this hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth will be quickly forgotten; no asterisks, no footnotes, etc...3-time champion, the world will continue to turn, the sun will continue to rise in the east and settle in the west. IOW, life will go on...
When, not IF, AC beats AS by 31+ secs in the TT, all this hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth will be quickly forgotten; no asterisks, no footnotes, etc...3-time champion, the world will continue to turn, the sun will continue to rise in the east and settle in the west. IOW, life will go on...
Why should anyone wait for a mechanical issue caused by the rider himself, through his conscious decision of omitting equipment from his bike, and "screw up" while shifting?
Stupidity is not rewarded... plus he lost less than 15 seconds placing the chain back up.... and then managed to loose around 25 seconds to AC through the climb and decent. its not like there was some miraculous super effort, everyone seems to think occurred.
Stupidity is not rewarded... plus he lost less than 15 seconds placing the chain back up.... and then managed to loose around 25 seconds to AC through the climb and decent. its not like there was some miraculous super effort, everyone seems to think occurred.
Why wait for all or none? Yellow jersey is the accepted tradition unless you wish to rewrite the rules.LDB said:
fastalarms said:
Congrats on totally missing the point.
The analogy was to regard sportsmanship, not auto racing. Racing is racing, and a win is a win. It doesn't matter how it's done. Every win in history hasn't been a pretty one.
Was Contador aware Schlek's bicycle failed? Only he knows the answer to that question. If he wasn't aware that Schlek's bicycle failed, no harm, no foul. People can say what they want about a "gentlemen's agreement," but there's nothing in the rule-book that states Contador couldn't take advantage of Schlek's failure. While I'd hate to bring up automobiles again because it offends you so horribly, but up until recent years the Japanese automakers had "gentlemen's agreements" that none of them would produce high performance cars making over 300 horsepower, but that came to an abrupt end when Toyota went ahead with the Supra Turbo in 1994.
As I said before, would I want to win in the manor that Contador did? No. If I wasn't aware that my opponent's bicycle experienced a failure and I coasted to victory, I wouldn't feel guilty about it. I'd be disappointed that I won in that fashion, but I wouldn't apologize for it as if I had done something wrong.
Things happen in competition. That's why it's called, "competition."
Greg Lemond didn't wait for Erik Breukink in 1990 in the Pyrenees when both of them had a shot for yellow, in fact Breukink had been beating him on the TT and mountains and was ahead by 1 minute or so. In that incident (mechanical) he lost like 3 or 4 minutes and the tour finally.
And the other incident between Ullrich and Armstrong in 2003 i think Ullrich was stronger that year so he should have power up the climb, get the booeys, but win a deserved tour afterall.
And the other incident between Ullrich and Armstrong in 2003 i think Ullrich was stronger that year so he should have power up the climb, get the booeys, but win a deserved tour afterall.
Muy question is why isn't anyone *****ing about these other riders that finished ahead of Schleck?
1 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Bbox Bouygues Telecom 4:44:51
2 Alessandro Ballan (Ita) BMC Racing Team 0:01:20
3 Aitor Perez Arrieta (Spa) Footon-Servetto
4 Lloyd Mondory (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 0:02:50
5 Luke Roberts (Aus) Team Milram
6 Francesco Reda (Ita) Quick Step
8 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi
9 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank
10 Brian Vandborg (Den) Liquigas-Doimo
11 Johan Van Summeren (Bel) Garmin - Transitions
1 Thomas Voeckler (Fra) Bbox Bouygues Telecom 4:44:51
2 Alessandro Ballan (Ita) BMC Racing Team 0:01:20
3 Aitor Perez Arrieta (Spa) Footon-Servetto
4 Lloyd Mondory (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 0:02:50
5 Luke Roberts (Aus) Team Milram
6 Francesco Reda (Ita) Quick Step
8 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi
9 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank
10 Brian Vandborg (Den) Liquigas-Doimo
11 Johan Van Summeren (Bel) Garmin - Transitions
jhuskey said:
Perhaps because the people *****ing the most already had disdain for Contador before this incident. Now, because of what happened on stage 15, some of the people that already disliked him have an excuse to dislike him more and make their opinion public. Just my opinion.
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