Should Cyclists Pack Guns?

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

M. MacDonald wrote:

think that's what he meant by "more eventful(less)."

Quoted message said:

He did say the motorcyclists bother them (i.e ranchers and farmers) less
since they all go by in 15 minutes and it doesn't require them to stay
off the road all day so the bicyclists can ride 3-4 abreast all over the
roadway like they normally do around here.

They don't like riding in their "exclusive lanes" because of stickers, so
they ride in the car track areas of the main roadway.

No wonder some get run over.

Mack

In response to a previous post of yours, bicyclists don't pay registration
fees or need licenses because they do little damage to other people, the
roads, or the environment. And quit complaining. If you don't like paying,
just ride a bicycle. It's free for anyone.

Many bicyclists don't want "exclusive lanes." We're usually OK with
generously sharing a part of OUR standard lane with faster motorists. Yes,
the vehicle operator in front, including bicycle drivers, can claim it's
their lane.

Bicycle lanes reduce bicyclists' space, get filled with debris, and are
first a benefit to motorists for easier passing, and secondly a benefit to
some bicyclists who are fearful of overtaking traffic.

I don't have difficulty dealing with bicyclists when I drive my car or
motorcycle. But apparently inept drivers do. Are you inept?

Wayne

Yup. I don't know how to pedal.

--

By it's very nature, my sig. makes this posting 100% on topic.

"Of course, you'll have the good taste not to mention that I posted this."

Thumper

"I don't want a pickle..."
http://www.thumpers-roadhouse.ws

2007 H-D FXSTD Deuce
2006 Buell Ulysees
2006 BMW K1200GT
2004 H-D Road King Classic
1978 Triumph T140V Bonneville
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
1974 Norton Commando Interstate
1969 BSA R75 Red Rocket III
1962 Triumph T20 Tiger Cub
1958 BSA Super Bantam [censored]
1954 Velocette MAC

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Peg said:

Quoted message said:

"Wayne Pein" wrote:
.... bicyclists don't pay registration fees or need licenses because
they
do little damage to other people, the roads, or the environment.

Oh really?

So how come you don't pay for your special little piece of tarmac?

Actually, I do. I pay taxes and fees for my cars and motorcycle, plus
other taxes that end up used for construction and maintenance of
roads. When I ride my bicycle, I'm on roads I helped pay for.

And I'm causing far less damage and expense than I do when I'm using
my other vehicles.

Quoted message said:

Should it be free at the exclusion of vehicular traffic?

In my state, bikes _are_ vehicular traffic. They're defined that way
in state law. But no, I don't care to exclude motor vehicle traffic
(assuming that's what you mean). I'm competent at sharing the road,
and most drivers are. Some yahoos in cars are not, but you can't
prevent a bell curve from having a bottom tail.

Quoted message said:

Why should vehicular
taxes pay for your free asphalt that impedes their travel?

'Taint free. I help pay for it. And if my presence impedes your
travel, it's likely because you're not as competent at driving as one
would hope. But again, there's that bell curve...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many bicyclists don't want "exclusive lanes." We're usually OK with
generously sharing a part of OUR standard lane with faster motorists.

So you have no problem riding in the middle of the road with traffic?

I certainly don't. Like Wayne, I'm no fan of bike lanes.

Quoted message said:

So we don't need bicycle lanes then.

Many, many cyclists are of that opinion.

Quoted message said:

Give them back to those who did pay for them and could use them.

You're misinformed about the issue of paying for them, but I'm willing
to give them up.

Quoted message said:

I hope by "generously sharing" you weren't
referring to bicyclists who ride side-by-side and take up the entire
rural
byways.

In actual fact, that is generally legal. Read the state laws, or the
Uniform Vehicle Code. Most states specifically permit two-abreast
riding. And it is sometimes necessary for a cyclist to take a lane,
for reasons many motorists don't comprehend.

One difficulty cyclists have is that there are too many people who
think they know all about how it should be done, but who actually are
- well, the bottom of yet another bell curve. Cyclists you think of
as rude may simply be careful, and reacting to situations you're not
even dimly aware of.

Of course, it _is_ possible some cyclists are just rude. But
motorists are hardly innocent of that!

Quoted message said:

Sorry, but you seem more inept at understanding your selfish demands on
road
usage and encroach into the lanes of those who do pay for their use. As
it
is, you pay nothing for something that costs a lot to maintain and build.

Sorry, but you seem to be inept at understanding the relevant laws,
and the reasons cyclist sometimes must be in your precious way, as
well as the economics of road and traffic expense.

Quoted message said:

I agree that the debris problem comes from their lack of usage - which
could
be put to better use for traffic flow and parking. If you want it clean,
why
not pay for it? It shouldn't be paid out of the pockets of those who
don't
or cannot use a bicycle.

If you're talking about debris in bike lanes, I don't want to clean
them, because I don't want bike lanes at all, at least in any
situation I've encountered. Take that issue up with a bike lane fan.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't have a problem with bicycles paying a license fee in states
where
they wish to have exclusive lanes or paved trails. Might even serve to
help
locate lost or stolen bikes as well. Would you be opposed to paying a
$100
year for a license/sticker like dirt bikers who don't use the tarmac?

Hell yes. It would be like paying a $100 fee for a walking license.

Cyclists cause zero road damage. They require zero police enforcement
expense. They don't generate the need for expensive infrastructure
like freeways, heavy-duty bridges, or even traffic lights. They
generate zero pollution, zero health problems. They cause nearly zero
injuries to any other road user.

If you accurately figured the true costs of your motoring, you'd
probably find you're paying a tiny fraction of it. Non-drivers are
subsidizing you.

- Frank Krygowski

You guys are rude, inconsiderate and a danger to motorists.

Thumper

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, THAT settles it ! If some random [censored] walking the
street in Moscow says 'It's like such and such in America', it must be
true !

Besides, anyone else remember the stories of how difficult it was to buy a
loaf of bread in the old Soviet Union? 🙂

--
"Outback" Jon - KC2BNE

Do you have a hatred of women? What is your problem that you have to label
someone you don't even know like that?

<plonk>

Curtis L. Russell said:

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:35:59 -0400, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Quoted message said:

Let's face it, there's a very different culture at work there.
One that accepts things like whoring, crack-smoking, 15 year old
unmarried mothers, vanishing fathers, family and friends in prison or
dead, nightly gunfire in the neighborhood, etc, all as 'normal'. One
that also leads to them periodically burning down their own
neighborhoods in some kind of misguided protest against people who
live in OTHER neighborhoods. Real bright !

I congratulate you on being able to respond so quickly and only
occasionally letting your code words slip. The problems are real, but
so is being a racist.

You are a racist.

I am a REALIST. That's different. My statement above it true
fact, and you know it. Speaking the truth is not being '[censored]-ist'.

If you can't admit that ghetto 'culture', which is mainly
black and latino 'culture', is decidely different than non-ghetto
culture ( which is both black and white, a little bit of latino, a
good bit of Asian ), you are blind or a fool.

Quoted message said:

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

--
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One thing I have never understood is why some people think bicyclists pay no
taxes! And yet, the more idiotic of them will bring up this red-herring
again and again. Do they think that we are all monks who do not own other
vehicles? Do they think we're all homeless, or something?

I don't get it!

Pat in TX

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I think there are way to many guns, way to easy to get them BUT they
are there and are not going to go away but a clearly insane person
like Cho should not have been able to buy a gun..THAT needs to be
fixed somehow.

I got a handgun permit.
Took an application asking for EVERY job and residence I've ever had.
And references, all of which they called.
Took six months for it to be approved.
Then I had to go to the main police station to get interviewed and
fingerprinted.

Now I've got a permit that allows me to buy a handgun.
That entails going to the gun shop, buying the handgun,
bringing the receipt back out to the main station to be examined
and the serial number recorded, returning to the shop with a signed
approval, taking possession of the gun, and bringing it back to the
station so they can examine the gun and make sure the numbers match.
Then I can bring it home.

One wonders why some states make it easier to buy a gun than
get a driver's license.

JP

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:35:59 -0400, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com

Quoted message said:

Let's face it, there's a very different culture at work there.
One that accepts things like whoring, crack-smoking, 15 year old
unmarried mothers, vanishing fathers, family and friends in prison or
dead, nightly gunfire in the neighborhood, etc, all as 'normal'. One
that also leads to them periodically burning down their own
neighborhoods in some kind of misguided protest against people who
live in OTHER neighborhoods. Real bright !

I congratulate you on being able to respond so quickly and only
occasionally letting your code words slip. The problems are real, but
so is being a racist.

You are a racist.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

B. Peg said:

Quoted message said:

"Wayne Pein" wrote:
.... bicyclists don't pay registration fees or need licenses because they
do little damage to other people, the roads, or the environment.

Oh really?

So how come you don't pay for your special little piece of tarmac? Should
it be free at the exclusion of vehicular traffic? Why should vehicular
taxes pay for your free asphalt that impedes their travel?

You're a hoot. Bicyclists DO pay for their tarmac. It's called taxes.
And most bicyclists are also motorists. Quit your whining.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many bicyclists don't want "exclusive lanes." We're usually OK with
generously sharing a part of OUR standard lane with faster motorists.

So you have no problem riding in the middle of the road with traffic? So
we don't need bicycle lanes then. Give them back to those who did pay for
them and could use them. I hope by "generously sharing" you weren't
referring to bicyclists who ride side-by-side and take up the entire rural
byways.

Sometimes we generously share, sometimes we don't. Get used to it. I
don't have to give you a piece of my birthday cake if I don't want to.

If you can't deal with slow traffic on rural byways, learn how to drive
better. I don't have a problem, why do you? Do you also have a problem
with slow moving farm tractors?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bicycle lanes reduce bicyclists' space, get filled with debris, and are
first a benefit to motorists for easier passing, and secondly a benefit to
some bicyclists who are fearful of overtaking traffic.

I don't have difficulty dealing with bicyclists when I drive my car or
motorcycle. But apparently inept drivers do. Are you inept?

Sorry, but you seem more inept at understanding your selfish demands on road
usage and encroach into the lanes of those who do pay for their use. As it
is, you pay nothing for something that costs a lot to maintain and build.

The fact that gas taxes in part pay for roads doesn't mean that non gas
users can't use them. If you don't like paying gas tax, ride a bike.
Decision makers have decided that is free. Quit whining. Or whine to
decision makers, but don't whine at bicyclists for using what we are
entitled to.

Quoted message said:

I agree that the debris problem comes from their lack of usage - which could
be put to better use for traffic flow and parking. If you want it clean, why
not pay for it? It shouldn't be paid out of the pockets of those who don't
or cannot use a bicycle.

I don't want it clean. I don't want it at all.

Quoted message said:

I wouldn't have a problem with bicycles paying a license fee in states where
they wish to have exclusive lanes or paved trails. Might even serve to help
locate lost or stolen bikes as well. Would you be opposed to paying a $100
year for a license/sticker like dirt bikers who don't use the tarmac?

I don't want exclusive space, so no, I won't pay. If decision makers
make me pay, I'll agree to pay 1/100 of what motorists pay since that is
about what a bike weighs. Factor in the fact that bikes don't use gas
(that's a good thing) and one could justify even less fee.

Wayne

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

On Apr 19, 9:34 am, donquijote1954 <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hey, we get screamed at, doored at, spitted upon, pushed around and
even killed, isn't it time we enjoy the same benefits as other
Americans? When is a cyclist going into a rage and mow down all those
careless SUV drivers who make us feel worthless?

Imagine this scenario: You get hit and as you roll down the pavement
you draw and...

I guess we cyclists are too pacific for that (or just that we aren't
Republicans), but in light of all that violence out there, shouldn't
we rethink our strategy (everyone to himself) and get together to
launch a good nonviolent campaign?

Here's a good identifying T-shirt...http://www.cafepress.com/burncalories

Still Bush defends the right to bear arms

EVEN as President George Bush told the nation he was praying for the
victims, and that the killings in a place of learning would affect
"every American classroom and community", a White House official said
Mr Bush continued to believe in the "right to bear arms".

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/04/17/1176696841532.html?from=top5

WELCOME TO THE JUNGLEhttp://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

BIKE FOR PEACEhttp://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace

I think there are way to many guns, way to easy to get them BUT they
are there and are not going to go away but a clearly insane person
like Cho should not have been able to buy a gun..THAT needs to be
fixed somehow.

It would be nice.

Then again, the largest mass murder in US history occured in
1990 ( I may have the year wrong ) when an unemployed Cuban in NYC
torched a nightclub called, funny enough, HappyLand, killing 87
people. His weapon was a gallon of gas and a match. In 1986, an
arson in a hotel in SAn Jaun killed 97.

How do we stop deadly things from falling into the wrong hands ?
Often we can't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll#Murder_.28criminal_rather_than_terrorism_or_state_sponsored.29

Murder (criminal rather than terrorism or state sponsored)
See also List of serial killers by country and Spree killer

50,000 - Thugee cult, India ~1700 - 1890
931 - Behram, Thugee cult leader, India, (1790 - 1830)
~650 - Erzsébet Báthory, Kingdom of Hungary, (c.1585 - 1610) - total
disputed
500 - Circus arson, (Niterói, Brazil, 1961)
400 - Abadan theater arson (Abadan, Iran, 1978)
300+ - Pedro Lopez, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, (1969 - 1980) - total
disputed
~250 - Dr. Harold Shipman, Hyde, United Kingdom, (1970s?-1998)
198 - Daugu Subway Fire (Daegu, South Korea, 2003)
163+ - Dr John Bodkin Adams, Eastbourne, United Kingdom, (1946-1956).
Acquitted controversially but pathologist Francis Camps suspected him
of killing 163 patients.[6]
140 - Luis Garavito, Colombia, (1992-1998)
100 - Donald Henry "Pee Wee" Gaskins, serial killer from Johnsonville,
South Carolina who prior to his execution, claimed over 100 killed
97 - Dupont Plaza Hotel arson, San Juan, Puerto Rico, 1986)
87 - Happyland Fire, New York City, (1990)
80+ - Bruno Ludke, Germany, (1928 - 1943) there is some evidence that
Ludke may have been framed by the Nazis
65 - Yang Xinhai, China (PRC), (1999 - 2004)
63 - Arson at a Macedonian disco in Gothenburg, Sweden (1998)
58+ - Giuseppe Greco, Mafiosi from Sicily (1977 - 1985)
57 - Woo Bum-Kon, South Korea (1982)
53 - Andrei Chikatilo, Ukraine, (1982 - 1990)
52 - Anatoly Onopriyenko, Ukraine, (1996)
48+ - Gary Ridgway, Green River Killer, Washington, USA (1980s)
45 - Bath School Disaster, Bath, Michigan, USA (1927)
38 - Moses Sithole, South Africa, (1994 - 1995)
35 - Port Arthur Massacre, Australia (1996)
33 - Virginia Tech Massacre, (2007)
33 - John Wayne Gacy, Chicago, (1970s)
29-40 - Charles Cullen, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, USA (1988 - 2003)
27–63 Marcel Petiot, France, (1926 - 1944)
27+ - Cedric Maake, South Africa, (1996 -1997)
27 - Dean Corll, Houston, Texas, USA (1970 - 1973)
27 - Maria Swanenburg Leiden, Netherlands, (1880-1883)
24+ - Fritz Haarmann, Hanover, Germany (1919-1924)
24 - Bela Kiss, Cinkota, Hungary (1912 - 1916)
23 - Albert Guay, Quebec, (1949)
23 - Ted Bundy, Florida, (1970s)
--
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'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Pat said:

One thing I have never understood is why some people think bicyclists pay no
taxes! And yet, the more idiotic of them will bring up this red-herring
again and again. Do they think that we are all monks who do not own other
vehicles? Do they think we're all homeless, or something?

I don't get it!

Like you said, they are idiots. And whiners. And instead of taking
advantage of something that they deride as "free," they CHOOSE to use a
motor vehicle which they upfront know has registration, licensing, and
gas tax requirements. They see bicyclists as freeloaders, but it is not
bicyclists who make the rules that bicycling is "free," it's motor
vehicle driving legislators.

Wayne

Thumper said:

You guys are rude, inconsiderate and a danger to motorists.

Thumper

Better watch out Thumper. Spike Bike is gonna get you.

Wayne

"Wayne Pein" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thumper said:

You guys are rude, inconsiderate and a danger to motorists.

Thumper

Better watch out Thumper. Spike Bike is gonna get you.

Why for telling the truth? Don't ask what happened to the last Mass...what ever
those morons call themselves that tried one of their little trick when I when by
at the legal limit. Insurance is a good thing to have a vehicle why don't you
have it on that push bike?

Thumper said:

You guys are rude, inconsiderate and a danger to motorists.

Thumper

Hilarious! Talk about the bottom of the bell curve... :-)

- Frank Krygowski

M. MacDonald said:

Quoted message said:

"Thumper" wrote:
Definitely, all motorcycle riders should carry sidearm's (not bicyclists
though, they're all fruitcakes).

LOL!

I wish they'd (bicyclists) would pay something to ride the things on the
streets. Around here, they take one entire lane away from vehicle traffic
and give it to bicyclists who I rarely see riding in one. They sure get a
lot of free asphalt and impede the traffic flow for their selfishness.

You must envious that we hold the moral ground. Otherwise they can
make bike lanes for us --which take no more than 3 feet-- and then you
can trade your bike for this other bike...

http://www.sunbicycles.com/sun/bicycles/cruiserBikes/stretchCruiser/stretchCruiser.htm

sqidbait said:

On Apr 19, 8:34 am, donquijote1954 <[email hidden]>
wrote:> Hey, we get screamed at, doored at, spitted upon, pushed around and

Quoted message said:

even killed, isn't it time we enjoy the same benefits as other
Americans? When is a cyclist going into a rage and mow down all those
careless SUV drivers who make us feel worthless?

[snip]

SpikeBike did this *years* ago. Weren't you paying attention?

http://members.aol.com/clubnbc/spike_1.htm

-- Michael

Is he in Guantanamo now (along with other terrorists) or still doing
his war? I read chapter one and enjoyed it thoroughly. This time
however we only aim with a banana. It's entirely legal, and can be
replaced with the middle finger if the need arises.

--Why do they do this? Are they environmentalists protesting car
usage? Not a very good way to bring positive attention to their cause.
I can't understand why someone being attacked like that wouldn't just
step on the gas or door the heck out them. Sound's like self-defense
to me. The means to end rarely justify actions like this regardless of
the value in a cause.--

The way to do it --and this is the official viewpoint of the
revolution-- we should not block the streets (stupid), but WE SHOULD
TAKE THE LANE (smart), because WE TOO ARE VEHICLES and driving on the
right hand gutter only lends to invisibility and discrimination. So as
our official T-shirt says, "We will TAKE THE LANE, until we get BIKE
LANES, so we can RIDE FOR PEACE"...

Dane Buson said:

In rec.bicycles.soc Road Glidin' Don said:

asshat1954 said:

On Apr 19, 1:11 pm, Road Glidin' Don <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Hopefully a door opener gets you some day, so we don't have to put up
> with your retarded cross-posts anymore.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd consider it an act of terrorism. Bicycles should have the right to
be free from opening doors as well as from invasive cars. If someone
has the right ot bear arms, we should have the right to ride a bike
SAFELY on the streets, ie. WE NEED BIKE LANES.

Quoted message said:

You've got a newsgroup for bicycles which you don't stay in. No
reason to suppose, if you had bike lanes, you'd stay in them either.

I've never seen him post to the bicycle group except to troll via
crosspost. He's a miserable hypocritical mouth breathing cretin, and
I'm not sure he's ever seet foot to pedal on a bicycle.

Quoted message said:

You've got a lot to learn about responsible use and sharing before you
start preaching to others, [censored].

I've got a call from the Mentally Handicapped Anti-Defamation League on
line one for you. :-)

Are you a member of the NRA, or you are a partaker of that mentality
that bikers are fair game? Do you realize that the law of the jungle
that prevails on our roads should be replaced with rules of the roads,
and that all those sharing the road --bikes, motorcycles and cars--
should agree to it? Can't we all get along? 😉

DougC said:

donquijote1954 said:

Still Bush defends the right to bear arms

Quoted message said:

EVEN as President George Bush told the nation he was praying for the
victims, and that the killings in a place of learning would affect
"every American classroom and community", a White House official said
Mr Bush continued to believe in the "right to bear arms".

Naaaa, guns are fun. Everybody should have one.

Regular people should be allowed to carry firearms if they want
to--*nothing* ruins a criminal's day faster than an armed victim.

-----------

Here's a fun question (totally off-topic for this newsgroup)--narcotics
are already illegal in the USA and criminals don't have any problem
getting them; what makes you think that declaring guns illegal will get
rid of guns?

Anti-gun activists are (a few) liars and (the rest) fools.
Anyone telling you that they're going to *take* *away* some of your
rights to *protect* you is a liar--and if you believe it, you're a fool.

Two of the classic high-crime areas in the US are NYC and Washington
DC--and both of those places have handgun bans in effect.....

Come to think of it, narcotics is illegal in NYC and DC too, and guess
what? 😉

Fine, let's legalize (or regulate) narcotics. But how your armed
citizens would have prevented this particular incident, an armed
professor or armed students?

This is fine in Switzerland where people are trained in the militias
and they take a rifle (not a handgun) home. But America can't even
make fine cheese! (or chocolate)

Thumper said:

You guys are rude, inconsiderate and a danger to motorists.

That's an interesting thing for a member of the "loud pipes save
lives" group to say.

donquijote1954 said:

Dane Buson said:

In rec.bicycles.soc Road Glidin' Don said:

On Apr 19, 2:22 pm, asshat1954 <[email hidden]> > wrote:
> On Apr 19, 1:11 pm, Road Glidin' Don <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> > Hopefully a door opener gets you some day, so we don't have to put up
> > with your retarded cross-posts anymore.

Quoted message said:

> I'd consider it an act of terrorism. Bicycles should have the right to
> be free from opening doors as well as from invasive cars. If someone
> has the right ot bear arms, we should have the right to ride a bike
> SAFELY on the streets, ie. WE NEED BIKE LANES.

Quoted message said:

You've got a newsgroup for bicycles which you don't stay in. No
reason to suppose, if you had bike lanes, you'd stay in them either.

I've never seen him post to the bicycle group except to troll via
crosspost. He's a miserable hypocritical mouth breathing cretin, and
I'm not sure he's ever seet foot to pedal on a bicycle.

Quoted message said:

You've got a lot to learn about responsible use and sharing before you
start preaching to others, [censored].

I've got a call from the Mentally Handicapped Anti-Defamation League on
line one for you. :-)

Are you a member of the NRA, or you are a partaker of that mentality
that bikers are fair game? Do you realize that the law of the jungle
that prevails on our roads should be replaced with rules of the roads,
and that all those sharing the road --bikes, motorcycles and cars--
should agree to it? Can't we all get along? 😉

Shut up, Rotney :-)

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/