"Orac" <
[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> Anecdotal (and a straw man, to boot). You didn't refute my main contention that larger randomized
> trials seldom show benefits for most alternative therapies.
How can they show benefits when both sides just raise the bar or mess about with the criteria
(Laetrile springs to mind)? I quoted that an untested therapy which 'works' has lowered my sisters
blood pressure. Atenolol didn't. Her doctor doesn't seem concerned, as far as she thinks - the drug
did it's job. When I look on the internet for the causes of high blood pressure, I see science
scratching it's head? I also see all kinds of crazy schemes, out of which I choose something that
was safe, maintainable and looked feasible. Something as simple as supplements can do this, which is
what people have been saying for ages.
> So what if there is a hypothesis behind them? (I wouldn't glorify Hulda's nuttiness by calling it
> a "theory," as the word "theory" in science implies a higher degree of certainty, as in the
> "theory of evolution" or the "theory of relativity.") It's just a demonstrably WRONG hypothesis,
> and there is abundant evidence to refute it as being totally WRONG. Any quack can come up with an
> hypothesis.
Hulda's work is emperical work based on Rife's (who cured 100% cancer patients according to the
University of Southern California), Beard, and many other treatments which she's added. You or I do
not know if Hulda's therapy is 'nuttyness' or 'genious' there's ignorance in that respect. You
cannot refute her claims because you don't have enough experience or the science to refute them,
neither can she prove them. You can have an opinion that they don't work. Something I would like to
see - Hulda on NCCAM - how's about a small wager that that will never happen?
> The thing with Hulda is, she makes crazy mad cap claims. Indeed she does. But worse, she makes
> money treating people with useless therapies based on those crazy madcap claims.
Again how do you know they are useless? There's no evidence? And yes she makes money and is
guilty of shameless advertisement. "I've got cancer let's go to Hulda or Schultz - they will make
t better."
> >If you stepped over the mark in your scientific world you would be another
Hulda.
> Depends on what you mean by "step over the mark." If I embraced a demonstrably wrong hypothesis,
> based a "therapy" on it, and took advantage of desperate or gullible people to make money off of
> that "therapy," then yes I would become another Hulda--and that's not something I aspire to. I
> would also deserve all the condemnation that gets heaped on Hulda.
If you started making claims about how your therapy healed people on the basis of a few case
histories you would join the quacks pretty soon.
> > > Not if the therapies in question truly have no scientific basis and there is evidence that
> > > they do no good. Hulda Clark's quackery comes
to
> > > mind as an excellent example.
> >
> > > > This is atypical of scurvy which took hundreds of years for the
truth to
> > > > come out.
> > >
> > > This was, of course, before the scientific basis to understand why citrus fruits prevent
> > > scurvy had been elucidated.
> >
> > It was the ignorant scientific dogma that prevented scurvy and even
cholera
> > from being explored - costing countless lives in the process. Most of this is caused by
> > 'ignorant scientific quacks' a good scientist would say ok let's explore this.
> You mean the way ship's physician James Lind did here:
>
>
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/scurvy.html
>
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/scurvy.html
>
> A pretty good example of an early clinical trial, I'd say.
Yes Indeed, how long before it weas accepted? Look at cholera - again and again the evidence was
there, again and again it was ignored because of dogma. Finally they accepted that it was the water
on the basis of one person they did tests.
> [Snip]
>
> > > > I think they do want to do the research and trials, but are on large
are
> > > > being ignored.
> > >
> > > Not by the NCCAM, they aren't. The NCCAM has a lot of money it's using to fund research grants
> > > into alternative medicine. The application process is the same as it is for any conventional
> > > scientist trying to get NIH funding for his proposal. One must write a detailed research
> > > proposal, with some preliminary evidence to support it, as well as a proposed budget and
> > > justification for the budget. There are three deadlines every year for these proposals
> > > (February 1, June 1, and October 1). The proposal will then be evaluated by scientists in
groups
> > > known as study sections. It will probably be rejected the first time around, but if the
> > > proposal is sound and the scientist can address the reviewers' comments usually it will get
> > > funded the second or third
time
> > > around. The problem is, too few "alternative medicine" practitioners
are
> > > willing to play by the same rules every other scientist has to play by to get funding and to
> > > go through the same sometimes brutal process of applying for funding. They seem to think that,
> > > just because they are "alternative," the government OWES them funding to pursue their
> > > research, that they shouldn't have to persuade the NIH/NCCAM that
their
> > > project is scientifically promising enough to be worth funding.
> >
> > NCCAM is a joke - they fund trials that show small effects (if any)
adding
> > ammunition against the therapy.
>
> The NCCAM funded the Gonzalez study, didn't it? It also funded studies on chelation therapy,
> acupuncture, acupressure, black cohosh, chiropractic manipulation, Ginseng, macrobiotic diets,
> etc., etc., etc.
It funded the Gonzalez study - for what - the same situation as before another set of Dr Kelly's
anecdotes, but with this time Dr Gonzalez name to it? This really doesn't effect me because I live
in another country, but you guys pay your taxes for that. I think it needs 'a right kick up the
backside.' and some serious restructuring. Or maybe the NCCAM is just another front to disprove
things or cast dis information?.
> Extravagant claims are all too often made for many alternative medicine therapies, claims of very
> high "cure" rates for incurable cancers, etc. If these dramatic claims for high cure rates for
> incurable diseases were correct, it would be VERY easy to demonstrate in controlled clinical
> trials (or even uncontrolled clinical trials). It wouldn't take that many patients. The very fact
> that these studies are statistically powered to look for small differences is irrelevant, because
> being powered to find small effects would mean that big effects would leap out at the
> investigators pretty early on in the trial--if altie claims were true.
Gonzalez study showed a large effect, and in the group which were not selected for inclusion into
the pilot study, because they had not met the study critera also showed that effect. So either
Gonzalez was just was good at selecting survivors or there was some effect.
> > Did you know that due to the Gonzalez pilot study results, people now request the
> > nutritional arm?
>
> I knew that months ago.
>
> I also notice that the Gonzalez trial is suspended. The NCCAM website doesn't explain why. Dr.
> Gonzalez's own website doesn't even mention that it is suspended. Given that most R01 grants are
> for 4-5 years and Gonzalez's grant started in 1999 or 2000 (if memory serves me correctly), my
> guess is that it's close to being at the end of the grant period.
Gonzalez protocal is still being tested on NCCAM by other doctors as I recall.
> > Because of this, It's likely that enzymes will never see the light of
day as
> > a proven cancer therapy.
>
> You appear not to understand that, although randomized, placebo-controlled trials are the gold-
> standard, the preponderance of evidence of lower-powered trials, if well designed, can adequately
> show efficacy. They are not preferred, but sometimes double-blind placebo-control trials are not
> possible. This is frequently the case in surgical therapies, because it's damned near impossible
> to blind patients or surgeons to therapy groups.
I do understand, but when the trials are controversial win or fail, the bar is raised. A good
scientist should just swallow their pride and say "It didn't work game over"
> > How's the Gonzalez coming along - I have the paper here in front of me
it
> > seems to dispel the most common misconceptions?
>
> I've been out of town for a week and busy as hell since (you may have noticed the paucity of posts
> over the last 10 days or so). I haven't made it to the library yet. However, I did check and know
> that they do carry the journal in which the article appeared.
I noticed that a few regulars are not posting with frequency, I put it down to the weather. (As for
Nutrition and Cancer - I would publically post the article but it's copywrited, so only small fair
use snippets are allowed). Anth
P.S.Another anecdote I believe in - "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"
> --
> Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
> |
> |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"