Should there be an amnesty?
- Thread starter limerickman
- Start date
Only if a full confession is made that reveals all, other riders, team support, doctors, runners, everything. There should be a panel that listens to the tale. If they snicker or guffaw at some Basso-like absurdity then the rider gets banned. 
If an amnesty were to work you would have to put the riders in a Prisoner's Dilemma. A requirement for amnesty would have to be giving out the names of others who were involved and after a certain date anyone who had not come forward but who had been implicated by others would get a very heavy penalty.
If an amnesty were to work you would have to put the riders in a Prisoner's Dilemma. A requirement for amnesty would have to be giving out the names of others who were involved and after a certain date anyone who had not come forward but who had been implicated by others would get a very heavy penalty.
An amnesty will only work if most (if not all) parties involved want to change their ways and work for a betterment of the system. Well I just don't see that happening here, so amnesty would never work.
So we're back to nailing a few big names without besmirching too many of the DS/teams, keep the sponsors and fans happy, and it's back to business as usual. Throw in some new HGH and other gene therapy in there, and ladies & gents we have a whole new ball game.
So we're back to nailing a few big names without besmirching too many of the DS/teams, keep the sponsors and fans happy, and it's back to business as usual. Throw in some new HGH and other gene therapy in there, and ladies & gents we have a whole new ball game.
I am thinking along the same lines as you.DiabloScott said:
Amnesty is not an answer. The real issue is not whether there is doping or not, but whether the competition is on even ground. I believe that there are different levels of cheating. The big teams are cutting edge. The smaller are not completely clean. And probably there is a very small minority that doesn’t dope and doesn’t win either. The sport is destroyed any way you look at it, I am afraid. Systemic doping is business now, it won’t go away easily. Where there is money involved there is someone looking to stack the deck in their own favor. I certainly am against punishment of only the riders. If there were a urine or other non invasive test that could catch rule breaking, I would be in favor of that.
limerickman said:
I want to revive this post from Lim-
I think it is time for an amnesty including draconian conditions that Lim implied.
Full disclosure followed by
-Lifetime bans for riders
-Bonds posted by teams
-Bans for sponsors, teams, and management
-DNA data for all riders
-3rd party "C" sample control and testing
And whatever else might be necessary. Currently banned riders might be able to buy out their remaining time.
If doping is as pervasive as the contributors to this forum obviously believe, then the sport is a long way from hitting rock-bottom. If most every rider feels so pressured to dope, then it is obvious that the practice is encouraged by management and ignored by sponsors.
Cyclists are far from being the best compensated athletes in sport despite the suffering and risk that professional cycling demand. To ruin the careers and livelihoods of so many riders who, as youngsters, started and excelled in this sport without the slightest idea of cheating seems more arbitrary and draconian than a fair and sweeping amnesty.
It is time to wipe the slate clean, restore the peloton, and establish a new industry-wide anti-doping protocol before the money dries up, the best become mediocre and the fans disappear.
You can add a provision of 10% for all salary and others incomes received by a rider every year , the money will return to the riders at the end of his carrier (manager too).sunman said:
Better would be 10% for a total income between 0 - 50000 euros, 20% between 50000-100000 and 30% for the rest.
Cycling will never be clean. There will always be better ways to beat the system. The doping going on now is only the tip of the iceberg...
But more importantly .......We live in a culture that thinks dope is OK.. Of course, if we call it dope, no one thinks that is good. But let's call it *RED BULL. Now it's legal. And the world cannot get enough of it.
No one really cares if the TDF is doped. A few people on the forum claim they don't want it. But they have known the sport has been dirty for years and they still are fans of cycling. What they really don't want is to have dope at the front of the cycling newspapers.
The rest of the world really does not care. We have some journalists that are attempting to sell newspapers and books,,,,,,, We have prosecutors in Germany trying to impress the people with their attacks on JU.
And we have McSquid sacrificing his riders to see if he can **** on Prudie. And Prudie is destroying careers because he wants to **** on McSquid because McSquid is Irish and uncultured. Who the hell has ever heard of a Irish wine? Those damn people drink beer!!!!!!!
Get used to it. The UCI and the ASO will reach a truce, the sport will have fewrer doping scandals, and JU will be working at a McDonalds in Germany. And the other riders who have taken it in the butt will be destroyed.
Ain't it a great sport?????
But more importantly .......We live in a culture that thinks dope is OK.. Of course, if we call it dope, no one thinks that is good. But let's call it *RED BULL. Now it's legal. And the world cannot get enough of it.
No one really cares if the TDF is doped. A few people on the forum claim they don't want it. But they have known the sport has been dirty for years and they still are fans of cycling. What they really don't want is to have dope at the front of the cycling newspapers.
The rest of the world really does not care. We have some journalists that are attempting to sell newspapers and books,,,,,,, We have prosecutors in Germany trying to impress the people with their attacks on JU.
And we have McSquid sacrificing his riders to see if he can **** on Prudie. And Prudie is destroying careers because he wants to **** on McSquid because McSquid is Irish and uncultured. Who the hell has ever heard of a Irish wine? Those damn people drink beer!!!!!!!
Get used to it. The UCI and the ASO will reach a truce, the sport will have fewrer doping scandals, and JU will be working at a McDonalds in Germany. And the other riders who have taken it in the butt will be destroyed.
Ain't it a great sport?????
Yep. Cycling will never be clean, Let's remember that the Tour de France started as a PR event to sell a newspaper (same for the Giro). The sponsors, organizers never cared if the riders doped, they only cared about media coverage and marketing. Same is true today.
As much as they 'hate' each other, the UCI, ASO (and other GT organizers) will get together, spin the line that its only older riders that dope and the new generation is clean (please!!), burn a few more older riders, and the whole thing will go back to status quo until the next scandal in a few years. The fans will be happy to pretend that their team/riders are clean, some fans will continue to believe every word that their team says while the doping discussions will continue on cycling boards,
It's all about the money, always had been, always will be.
As much as they 'hate' each other, the UCI, ASO (and other GT organizers) will get together, spin the line that its only older riders that dope and the new generation is clean (please!!), burn a few more older riders, and the whole thing will go back to status quo until the next scandal in a few years. The fans will be happy to pretend that their team/riders are clean, some fans will continue to believe every word that their team says while the doping discussions will continue on cycling boards,
It's all about the money, always had been, always will be.
A fresh start is a superficially attractive idea but consider the ramifications if everybody genuinely fessed up. The whole horror story that 99-100% of the peloton were doped to the gills would inevitably become public. Thinking it is one thing, knowing it is another. The reputation of Cycling, already pretty low with potential sponsors, sports fans and the general public, would be down the pan, round the U-bend and in the sewers. Where it would remain for a generation as a minor, pariah sport that nobody really believed had changed.
I'm going to say no on amnesty because they've had amnesty up to this point. Now the gloves are off. Target testing and investigations are working much better than the system they had before. And, when the ASO boots riders for suspicious activity when they don't have reasonable explanations, that helps too.
There's a new climate. Riders better get used to it.
Now, if we could only figure out how Disco got blood into the Tour.
There's a new climate. Riders better get used to it.
Now, if we could only figure out how Disco got blood into the Tour.
Hey, somebody agrees with me, I'm shocked. This is what I said last week:Bro Deal said:Only if a full confession is made that reveals all, other riders, team support, doctors, runners, everything. There should be a panel that listens to the tale. If they snicker or guffaw at some Basso-like absurdity then the rider gets banned.
If an amnesty were to work you would have to put the riders in a Prisoner's Dilemma. A requirement for amnesty would have to be giving out the names of others who were involved and after a certain date anyone who had not come forward but who had been implicated by others would get a very heavy penalty.
Establish an amnesty date of October 1st. By that date, all riders, managers, teams, soigners, etc. have to confess to the sins of the past and name names of everybody that helped them dope, encouraged them to dope, allowed them to dope or supplied them with dope. They have to name names of all other riders that they know have doped. If somebody doesn't come forward and is named by somebody else, then they get banned for life.
I agree with this too. The UCI now has leverage to require the riders to squeal by waiving the one year salary penalty. How well this will work is unknown.helmutRoole2 said:
Either way, the gloves should come off.
helmutRoole2 said:
Agree with you completely. They had amnesty back in 1998 when Festina broke. Clear warning that the heat was on, and the fans didn't care for it. What happened? It just got worse.
There is no reason to think that a blanket amnesty today would do any more good. It might reveal some of the current methods, but they'd just concoct new ones. The culture and mindset has to change, and that will take more than two disgraced Tours. But, at least the enforcement seems to be accelerating.
I thought the policy of de-inviting an entire team if one member was caught doping was a good one. Harsh, but it does put the burden on the teams to keep their members clean. It's a microcosm of what is actually happening - one major cyclist doping disgraces the entire sport.
For the Doc's, soigneurs, mangagers, rider to open up and talk about essentially needs an amnesty.DiabloScott said:
It's unlikely that any of these guys currently working/riding are going to spill the beans for fear of reprisal, it would mean at least 2yrs of unemployment and then who would employ a 'snitch' ???
An amnesty would/could at least allow those who want to talk to do so, but the way it is now can't.
The only reason an amnesty works is if the rewards of cleaning your slate outweigh the downsides of coming out. In the case of cycling, I don't think there is enough risk that a person's past will come back to haunt them, unless the UCI's new intelligence efforts start bearing OP-like fruit.
If a rider wants to go straight he simply stops doping. What is the risk that his doping past is found out? On the other hand if he starts blabbing, a lot of lives are going to be destroyed. Even Cassani was reluctant with the truth on Rasmussen. Generally speaking, despite a whistle-blower's good intentions, he will probably be denigrated in the pro ranks as a snitch.
It's kind of a horse/cart paradox. For the amnesty to start working, you need a lot of people to start coming out first (ie an amnesty) or you need the UCI revelations to be like OP times 3 which means you don't really need the amnesty.
I agree with Helmut. Also criminalize the doctors severely. Raise the penalties on the cyclists. And ratchet up the testing and surveillance. Things that it seems are currently happening.
Unfortunately though, the less riders there are that are juiced, the greater the rewards of successful juicing.
If a rider wants to go straight he simply stops doping. What is the risk that his doping past is found out? On the other hand if he starts blabbing, a lot of lives are going to be destroyed. Even Cassani was reluctant with the truth on Rasmussen. Generally speaking, despite a whistle-blower's good intentions, he will probably be denigrated in the pro ranks as a snitch.
It's kind of a horse/cart paradox. For the amnesty to start working, you need a lot of people to start coming out first (ie an amnesty) or you need the UCI revelations to be like OP times 3 which means you don't really need the amnesty.
I agree with Helmut. Also criminalize the doctors severely. Raise the penalties on the cyclists. And ratchet up the testing and surveillance. Things that it seems are currently happening.
Unfortunately though, the less riders there are that are juiced, the greater the rewards of successful juicing.
Here's a suggestion for the UCI. Enter a team of undercover agents (riders) into the Pro Tour. I'll volunteer, though I'm a little bit old. Allow us to surreptitiously put little motors in our rear hubs like those bikes on the indoor track that they use to pace the field. It would be great to look like your not even trying as you pump out 150 watts on the climbs and stay with the lead group.
Of course, UCI would have to let us win a couple of GT's for street cred. We would only train in black. Then we would have to look sideways in interviews whenever doping came up and change the subject. You know like Levi. That would get us the respect of the dopers in the peloton.
In a couple of years, we could blow the lid off this thing, and perhaps keep the findings off the front pages. Riders would just disappear.
Of course, UCI would have to let us win a couple of GT's for street cred. We would only train in black. Then we would have to look sideways in interviews whenever doping came up and change the subject. You know like Levi. That would get us the respect of the dopers in the peloton.
In a couple of years, we could blow the lid off this thing, and perhaps keep the findings off the front pages. Riders would just disappear.
Screw you, you're Doctor Evil!!!!!!! I watched those movies and I know what you stand for......... And I agree with your boy....You are dumb. You had so many chances to kill Austin Powers and what do you do? You give him a chance to escape!!!!!!Crankyfeet said:
Do we look stupid enough to ley Doctor Evil run a team???
You just... don't... get it, do you Wolfywolfix said:
Guard, begin the unnecessarily slow dipping mechanism.
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