Simeoni Questioned For Three Hours

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by B. Lafferty, Jul 27, 2004.

  1. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    From L'Equipe:

    Filippo Simeoni entendu

    Le coureur italien Filippo Simeoni a été entendu mardi à la brigade
    antistupéfiants des carabiniers (NAS) de Florence dans le cadre de
    l'incident de course qui l'a opposé à l'Américain Lance Armstrong lors du
    Tour de France.


    Au terme des trois heures d'audition, les enquêteurs se sont réservé le
    droit d'ouvrir une procédure judiciaire à l'encontre d'Armstrong pour fraude
    sportive, violence privée et intimidation de témoin.

    Simeoni figure en effet comme témoin de l'accusation dans le procès
    actuellement en cours contre le médecin sportif Michele Ferrari, que
    l'Américain a toujours farouchement défendu.

    L'an passé, Simeoni avait porté plainte contre Armstrong qui l'avait traité
    de «menteur» dans la presse à propos de son témoignage dans ce procès.
    Dans l'étape de Lons-le-Saunier, Simeoni a estimé avoir «subi une grande
    injustice de la part d'Armstrong».

    Simeoni, parti en contre-attaque derrière l'échappée du jour, a vu Armstrong
    prendre son sillage et provoquer de facto sa perte. Le coureur italien a
    accepté de se relever à la demande de ses compagnons afin de ne pas
    compromettre la réussite de l'échappée.
     
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  2. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    B. Lafferty wrote:
    > From L'Equipe:
    >
    > Filippo Simeoni entendu
    >
    > Le coureur italien Filippo Simeoni a été entendu mardi à la brigade
    > antistupéfiants des carabiniers (NAS) de Florence dans le cadre de
    > l'incident de course qui l'a opposé à l'Américain Lance Armstrong lors
    > du Tour de France.
    >
    >
    > Au terme des trois heures d'audition, les enquêteurs se sont réservé le
    > droit d'ouvrir une procédure judiciaire à l'encontre d'Armstrong pour
    > fraude sportive, violence privée et intimidation de témoin.
    >
    > Simeoni figure en effet comme témoin de l'accusation dans le procès
    > actuellement en cours contre le médecin sportif Michele Ferrari, que
    > l'Américain a toujours farouchement défendu.
    >
    > L'an passé, Simeoni avait porté plainte contre Armstrong qui l'avait
    > traité de «menteur» dans la presse à propos de son témoignage dans ce
    > procès.
    > Dans l'étape de Lons-le-Saunier, Simeoni a estimé avoir «subi une grande
    > injustice de la part d'Armstrong».
    >
    > Simeoni, parti en contre-attaque derrière l'échappée du jour, a vu
    > Armstrong prendre son sillage et provoquer de facto sa perte. Le
    > coureur italien a accepté de se relever à la demande de ses compagnons
    > afin de ne pas compromettre la réussite de l'échappée.


    This is remarkable for two reasons:

    1. The Italian NAS appears not to understand one of the main features of
    modern racing, which is that one must often collude with opponents in
    order to have a chance at a win. An additional fact of stage racing is
    that stages are not always contested by GC contenders if the composition
    of the escape is appropriate (the result being events like Voeckler's 10
    day run in yellow).

    2. Lafferty didn't put "Armstrong" in the subject line.
     
  3. On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:58:12 +0200, Robert Chung wrote:
    >The Italian NAS appears not to understand one of the main features of
    >modern racing, which is that one must often collude with opponents in
    >order to have a chance at a win.


    I guess it *could* be argued that one of the original break-away riders
    was colluding with Armstrong to stop Simeoni from joining. I don't think
    that's highly probable, though. Whos colluding were you thinking of?

    >An additional fact of stage racing is
    >that stages are not always contested by GC contenders if the composition
    >of the escape is appropriate (the result being events like Voeckler's 10
    >day run in yellow).


    That seems to me an argument in favour of Simeoni because in this case,
    the break-away was certainly no threat to Armstrong's GC position.
     
  4. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
    > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:58:12 +0200, Robert Chung wrote:
    >> The Italian NAS appears not to understand one of the main features of
    >> modern racing, which is that one must often collude with opponents in
    >> order to have a chance at a win.

    >
    > I guess it *could* be argued that one of the original break-away riders
    > was colluding with Armstrong to stop Simeoni from joining. I don't think
    > that's highly probable, though. Whos colluding were you thinking of?


    I'm not saying that the break was colluding with Simeoni, I'm saying that
    breaks must collude in order to keep away from the peloton. On stage 18,
    there were six guys in the break, representing six teams. They had to
    agree to work together. However, we do also know that some members of the
    break asked Simeoni to leave the break, which he did. That, too, is
    collusion: by dropping out, Simeoni's actions changed the result of the
    stage. I can understand if the Italian authorities wanted to question
    Armstrong about "intimidation de temoin." I can't understand that they
    would do so for "fraude sportive."
     
  5. On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:10:19 +0200, Robert Chung wrote:
    >I'm not saying that the break was colluding with Simeoni, I'm saying that
    >breaks must collude in order to keep away from the peloton. On stage 18,
    >there were six guys in the break, representing six teams. They had to
    >agree to work together. However, we do also know that some members of the
    >break asked Simeoni to leave the break, which he did. That, too, is
    >collusion: by dropping out, Simeoni's actions changed the result of the
    >stage. I can understand if the Italian authorities wanted to question
    >Armstrong about "intimidation de temoin." I can't understand that they
    >would do so for "fraude sportive."


    As you of course know, Simeoni was only asked to get dropped because he
    would then also take Armstrong with him, which would increase the
    break's chances of staying away from zero to non-zero. So, Armstrong's
    presence was changing the attitude of the break towards Simeoni from
    neutral or even positive (Domina Vacanze not represented yet) to
    downright hostile. I think this might be the basis for sporting fraud,
    if that really is going to be an official accusation (which I doubt).
    The sole fact of Armsting himself bridging, is breaking all silent
    understandings but in itself not sporting fraud.
     
  6. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
    >
    > As you of course know, Simeoni was only asked to get dropped because he
    > would then also take Armstrong with him, which would increase the
    > break's chances of staying away from zero to non-zero. So, Armstrong's
    > presence was changing the attitude of the break towards Simeoni from
    > neutral or even positive (Domina Vacanze not represented yet) to
    > downright hostile. I think this might be the basis for sporting fraud,
    > if that really is going to be an official accusation (which I doubt).
    > The sole fact of Armsting himself bridging, is breaking all silent
    > understandings but in itself not sporting fraud.


    Yeah. My point was that the original article talked about the NAS reserved
    the right to charge Armstrong with sporting fraud. If the grounds for
    sporting fraud is that a rider can change the outcome of a race, all the
    racers in every stage race are committing sporting fraud, whether by
    action or by inaction. That's nuts.
     
  7. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
    > >
    > > As you of course know, Simeoni was only asked to get dropped because he
    > > would then also take Armstrong with him, which would increase the
    > > break's chances of staying away from zero to non-zero. So, Armstrong's
    > > presence was changing the attitude of the break towards Simeoni from
    > > neutral or even positive (Domina Vacanze not represented yet) to
    > > downright hostile. I think this might be the basis for sporting fraud,
    > > if that really is going to be an official accusation (which I doubt).
    > > The sole fact of Armsting himself bridging, is breaking all silent
    > > understandings but in itself not sporting fraud.

    >
    > Yeah. My point was that the original article talked about the NAS reserved
    > the right to charge Armstrong with sporting fraud. If the grounds for
    > sporting fraud is that a rider can change the outcome of a race, all the
    > racers in every stage race are committing sporting fraud, whether by
    > action or by inaction. That's nuts.


    I doubt that the sporting fraud would relate to this particular incident in
    the Tour. More likely, it would relate to sporting fraud in relation to
    actions centering on doping by Ferrari in which Armstrong might be viewed as
    an accessory or co-conspirator. With what we know, which no doubt isn't
    quite what the Italian police know, it seems that Armstrong's biggest worry
    would be intimidation of a witness in an existing criminal prosecution and
    acting toward that witness in a manner designed to intimidate other
    witnesses, either potential ones or ones already cooperating with the
    authorities.
     
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