Singlespeed cyclocross bikes

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Damian Harvey, Apr 21, 2003.

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  1. When I get back from Asia (woohoo only 13 days to go), I'll be looking to get a new bike, something
    lighter, faster and simpler than my MTB. I've got my eye on an Orbea ciclocross frame,
    www.orbea-usa.com/ciclocross.html, because there's no weight limit and I'm a big bloke, there's a
    lifetime warranty on the frame and they can easily customise the size. How easy is it to go around
    and pick and mix components to fit a frame? Can I choose integrated or non headsets? Forks? Bottom
    brackets? Is it possible to have a flip flop hub with two different cogs on it and not need a chain
    tensioner? Sheldon leads me to believe that you can but you need to play around with the cog sizes
    and chain length. I'm not averse to having two superlinks in a chain to change its length easily.
    Should I be? Sheldon also says "It can be difficult or impossible to use a frame with vertical
    dropouts with a flip-flop <http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixeda.html#flip-flop> hub." Why is this? The
    frame looks like it has semi-vertical dropouts? Do these count as vertical? If they are, can I get a
    frame builder (is there one in Adelaide?) to retrofit horizontal dropouts? My final question is one
    of cost. Assuming all else is equal, forks, bars, brakes etc, will a singlespeed be cheaper than a
    multispeed bike?

    --
    Cheers Damian Harvey

    This space reserved for standard disclaimer, witty quote, plug for own business in caps and large,
    bad ASCII art.
     
    Tags:


  2. I know it's bad form to follow up you own post but. Going by the frame geometry info the ciclocross
    has a 40.5 cm chainstay. Using FixMeUp! www.peak.org/~fixin/formfmu.html I've found that I can have
    a 45 t front ring and either a 14 or 18t rear cogs

    14t cog, 40.472 cm chainstay, 47 (link?) chainlength for a total of 82.4 gear inches 18t cog, 40.59
    cm chainstay, 48 (link?) chainlength for a total of 64.1 gear inches Is that too large a discrepancy
    on the chainstay length? Will a Fixed Innovations axle provide me with enouth leeway? Or will I need
    a White industries eccentric hub? As you can tell I don't really want to use a chain tensioner if I
    can help it. With a frame that good looking why ruin it by hanging stuff on it. I rode around today
    using only my 32 and11 gear Sheldon again helps me out by saying that's 75 gear inches. I envisage
    myself being fitter after three months cycling in Asia so 82 gear inches shouldn't be too hard
    around town.

    --
    Cheers Damian Harvey

    This space reserved for standard disclaimer, witty quote, plug for own business in caps and large,
    bad ASCII art.
     
  3. Damian Harvey <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I know it's bad form to follow up you own post but. Going by the frame geometry info the
    > ciclocross has a 40.5 cm chainstay. Using FixMeUp! www.peak.org/~fixin/formfmu.html I've found
    > that I can have a 45 t front ring and either a 14 or 18t rear cogs ...

    > As you can tell I don't really want to use a chain tensioner if I can help it. With a frame that
    > good looking why ruin it by hanging stuff on it. I rode around today using only my 32 and11 gear
    > Sheldon again helps me out by saying that's 75 gear inches. I envisage myself being fitter after
    > three months cycling in Asia so 82 gear inches shouldn't be too hard around town.

    What are you intending to do with this bike? Ride off road, ride around town on pavement, race
    singlespeed cyclocross (Yes there are crazy people who do that). That determines the gearing.
    Typical offroad singlespeed gearing is 2:1, like 32:16 (on 26" mtb tires), while typical road
    singlespeed or fixed gearing is more like 42:16. 82" is rather tall. 45/18 offroad is ambitious if
    you have hills.

    Since you intend from the beginning to make a singlespeed, either get horizontal dropouts or live
    with a chain tensioner. I wouldn't bet on manufacturers' specs on chainstay length being accurate to
    1mm, BTW. It is possible for framebuilders to refit singlespeed dropouts on a steel frame, and
    probably more difficult or impossible on an aluminum frame.

    Followups set to rec.bicycles.tech.
     
  4. Glenn Druery

    Glenn Druery Guest

    Damian,

    If you're after a new bike and want to be the fastest kid in town a Lowracer is the only way to go.
    http://www.bentrideronline.com/2002%20Buyer's%20Guide/lowracers.htm

    Glenn.

    "Damian Harvey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > When I get back from Asia (woohoo only 13 days to go), I'll be looking to get a new bike,
    > something lighter, faster and simpler than my MTB. I've got my eye on an Orbea ciclocross frame,
    > www.orbea-usa.com/ciclocross.html, because there's no weight limit and I'm a big bloke, there's a
    > lifetime warranty on the frame and they can easily customise the size. How easy is it to go around
    > and pick and mix components to fit a frame? Can I choose integrated or non headsets? Forks? Bottom
    > brackets? Is it possible to have a flip flop hub with two different cogs on it and not need a
    > chain tensioner? Sheldon leads me to believe that you can but you need to play around with the cog
    > sizes and chain length. I'm not averse to having two superlinks in a chain to change its length
    > easily. Should I be? Sheldon also says "It can be difficult or impossible to use a frame with
    > vertical dropouts with a flip-flop <http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixeda.html#flip-flop> hub." Why
    > is this? The frame looks like it has semi-vertical dropouts? Do these count as vertical? If they
    > are, can I get a frame builder (is there one in Adelaide?) to retrofit horizontal dropouts? My
    > final question is one of cost. Assuming all else is equal, forks, bars, brakes etc, will a
    > singlespeed be cheaper than a multispeed bike?
    >
    > --
    > Cheers Damian Harvey
    >
    > This space reserved for standard disclaimer, witty quote, plug for own business in caps and large,
    > bad ASCII art.
     
  5. Damian Harvey <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > Is it possible to have a flip flop hub with two different cogs on it and not need a chain
    > tensioner? Sheldon leads me to believe that you can but you need to play around with the cog sizes
    > and chain length.

    Probably not with vertical dropouts. I have a singlespeed cross bike, a Surly Crosscheck, which
    comes with horizontal dropouts and is easily singlespeedable. I run mine with a Phil Wood fixed/free
    flip-flop, 49x18 on the fixed side and 49x20 on the freewheel side:

    http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/corvuscorvax/surly.jpg

    If you want to go with more than a couple of teeth difference on the two sides of the flip-flop,
    you'll probably need a chain tensioner even with horizontal dropouts. You might have a hard time
    getting a Surly in Australia, alas. However, if you get a steel frame, it is possible to get a
    horizontal dropout welded on.

    > My final question is one of cost. Assuming all else is equal, forks, bars, brakes etc, will a
    > singlespeed be cheaper than a multispeed bike?

    Certainly cheaper than a multispeed bike of equal weight. And way more fun to ride, too.

    CC
     
  6. "Glenn Druery" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > If you're after a new bike and want to be the fastest kid in town a Lowracer is the only
    > way to go.

    CC
     
  7. Ant

    Ant Guest

    Damian Harvey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > When I get back from Asia (woohoo only 13 days to go), I'll be looking to get a new bike,
    > something lighter, faster and simpler than my MTB. I've got my eye on an Orbea ciclocross frame,
    > www.orbea-usa.com/ciclocross.html, because there's no weight limit and I'm a big bloke, there's a
    > lifetime warranty on the frame and they can easily customise the size.

    You want SS cross? i have a surly cross check. couldnt be happier. i think you are setting yourself
    up for a lot of fussing about if you *know* you want single speed, and plan on getting a bike with
    vert dropouts. surly has nice long horizontal dropouts, which saves you the fuss, and money, from
    calculations, eccentric hubs, and the like.

    the surly is a tough frame, too.

    > How easy is it to go around and pick and mix components to fit a frame?

    yes. i didnt know a damn thing about bikes when i did this, so sheldon et al helped me out no
    end. now i actually know what im talking about, for the most part, and it is worlds easier than
    i thoguht.

    > Can I choose integrated or non headsets? Forks? Bottom brackets?

    integrated headsets are a yes/no depending on the frame. bb depends on crank and chainline, which is
    info available on sheldon's site. fork, if it comes with the frame, great, otherwise, you can pick.

    > Is it possible to have a flip flop hub with two different cogs on it and not need a chain
    > tensioner?

    yes. if your cogs are not enormously far apart.

    > I'm not averse to having two superlinks in a chain to change its length easily. Should I be?

    no. and despite some folk's doom saying about how hard quicklinks are to separate when the chain is
    dirty, ive yet to have even the slightest problem ulling them apart by hand in all kinds of nasty
    gritty winter chain-hating weather. if your cogs are close together, you might not even need to play
    with chain length. this would also save you a headache, but hey..

    > can I get a frame builder (is there one in
    > Adelaide?) to retrofit horizontal dropouts?

    yes. and i imagine that it would cost just as much as buying a new surly frame (un-brazing the
    drops, buyign the new ones, putting them in, and repainting the frame)

    > My final question is one of cost. Assuming all else is equal, forks, bars, brakes etc, will a
    > singlespeed be cheaper than a multispeed bike?

    well. sort of. if i bouight the stock surly cross check frame, built up with shimano 9 spd parts,
    lower end, it would have cost me something like 950 dollars, IIRC. i took the bit-by-bit aproach,
    and picked all my parts separately. this means that i did not have to buy expensive things like
    shifters, casettes, deraileurs, etc. however, my bike was MORE expensive than that stock bike. and i
    dont have any light weight parts except fro my DA track cog ;)

    technically you are buying less parts so its cheaper, but only if you were going to build up a
    geared bike with parts instead. if you are building up ANYTHING part by part, it is going to be very
    expensive compared to a stock package deal.
     
  8. Geoff Raynak

    Geoff Raynak Guest

    it is ugly as sin, but check this out:

    http://vandesselsports.com/b_cntryBob.shtml

    it is exactly what you are asking about.

    i have a few friend here in portland who own them they all race SS cross

    the whole thing is only 700$ USD

    "ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Damian Harvey <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > When I get back from Asia (woohoo only 13 days to go), I'll be looking to get a new bike,
    > > something lighter, faster and simpler than my MTB. I've got my eye on an Orbea ciclocross frame,
    > > www.orbea-usa.com/ciclocross.html, because there's no weight limit and I'm a big bloke, there's
    > > a lifetime warranty on the frame and they can easily customise the size.
    >
    > You want SS cross? i have a surly cross check. couldnt be happier. i think you are setting
    > yourself up for a lot of fussing about if you *know* you want single speed, and plan on getting a
    > bike with vert dropouts. surly has nice long horizontal dropouts, which saves you the fuss, and
    > money, from calculations, eccentric hubs, and the like.
    >
    > the surly is a tough frame, too.
    >
    > > How easy is it to go around and pick and mix components to fit a frame?
    >
    > yes. i didnt know a damn thing about bikes when i did this, so sheldon et al helped me out no end.
    > now i actually know what im talking about, for the most part, and it is worlds easier than i
    > thoguht.
    >
    > > Can I choose integrated or non headsets? Forks? Bottom brackets?
    >
    > integrated headsets are a yes/no depending on the frame. bb depends on crank and chainline,
    > which is info available on sheldon's site. fork, if it comes with the frame, great, otherwise,
    > you can pick.
    >
    > > Is it possible to have a flip flop hub with two different cogs on it and not need a chain
    > > tensioner?
    >
    > yes. if your cogs are not enormously far apart.
    >
    > > I'm not averse to having two superlinks in a chain to change its length easily. Should I be?
    >
    > no. and despite some folk's doom saying about how hard quicklinks are to separate when the chain
    > is dirty, ive yet to have even the slightest problem ulling them apart by hand in all kinds of
    > nasty gritty winter chain-hating weather. if your cogs are close together, you might not even need
    > to play with chain length. this would also save you a headache, but hey..
    >
    > > can I get a frame builder (is there one in
    > > Adelaide?) to retrofit horizontal dropouts?
    >
    > yes. and i imagine that it would cost just as much as buying a new surly frame (un-brazing the
    > drops, buyign the new ones, putting them in, and repainting the frame)
    >
    > > My final question is one of cost. Assuming all else is equal, forks, bars, brakes etc, will a
    > > singlespeed be cheaper than a multispeed bike?
    >
    > well. sort of. if i bouight the stock surly cross check frame, built up with shimano 9 spd parts,
    > lower end, it would have cost me something like 950 dollars, IIRC. i took the bit-by-bit aproach,
    > and picked all my parts separately. this means that i did not have to buy expensive things like
    > shifters, casettes, deraileurs, etc. however, my bike was MORE expensive than that stock bike. and
    > i dont have any light weight parts except fro my DA track cog ;)
    >
    > technically you are buying less parts so its cheaper, but only if you were going to build up a
    > geared bike with parts instead. if you are building up ANYTHING part by part, it is going to be
    > very expensive compared to a stock package deal.
     
  9. Get track ends rather than dropouts - make life a lot easier!! Then use the 2 super links (or
    whatever's necessary) to make up the chain length difference. Seems to work at the track anyway -
    quite a few track bikes have the double sided hubs.

    Gemma (also in Adelaide) "Damian Harvey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > When I get back from Asia (woohoo only 13 days to go), I'll be looking to get a new bike,
    > something lighter, faster and simpler than my MTB. I've got my eye on an Orbea ciclocross frame,
    > www.orbea-usa.com/ciclocross.html, because there's no weight limit and I'm a big bloke, there's a
    > lifetime warranty on the frame and they can easily customise the size. How easy is it to go around
    > and pick and mix components to fit a frame? Can I choose integrated or non headsets? Forks? Bottom
    > brackets? Is it possible to have a flip flop hub with two different cogs on it and not need a
    > chain tensioner? Sheldon leads me to believe that you can but you need to play around with the cog
    > sizes and chain length. I'm not averse to having two superlinks in a chain to change its length
    > easily. Should I be? Sheldon also says "It can be difficult or impossible to use a frame with
    > vertical dropouts with a flip-flop <http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixeda.html#flip-flop> hub." Why
    > is this? The frame looks like it has semi-vertical dropouts? Do these count as vertical? If they
    > are, can I get a frame builder (is there one in Adelaide?) to retrofit horizontal dropouts? My
    > final question is one of cost. Assuming all else is equal, forks, bars, brakes etc, will a
    > singlespeed be cheaper than a multispeed bike?
    >
    > --
    > Cheers Damian Harvey
    >
    > This space reserved for standard disclaimer, witty quote, plug for own business in caps and large,
    > bad ASCII art.
     
  10. "Damian Harvey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > vertical? If they are, can I get a frame builder (is there one in Adelaide?) to retrofit
    > horizontal dropouts? My final question is one of cost. Assuming all else is equal, forks, bars,
    > brakes etc, will a singlespeed be cheaper than a multispeed bike?
    Forgot to add: There is a frame builder in Adelaide (Wayne Roberts), just had a track bike fitted
    with new seat stays and painted, cost A$400 including paint. You'd probably be better off probably
    buying a frame that had what you wanted in the first place. You could get a custom frame and fork
    for double that.....

    Gemm
     
  11. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    "Damian Harvey" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I know it's bad form to follow up you own post but. Going by the frame geometry info the
    > ciclocross has a 40.5 cm chainstay. Using FixMeUp! www.peak.org/~fixin/formfmu.html I've found
    > that I can have a 45 t front ring and either a 14 or 18t rear cogs
    >
    > 14t cog, 40.472 cm chainstay, 47 (link?) chainlength for a total of 82.4 gear inches 18t cog,
    > 40.59 cm chainstay, 48 (link?) chainlength for a total of 64.1 gear inches Is that too large a
    > discrepancy on the chainstay length? Will a Fixed Innovations axle provide me with enouth leeway?
    > Or will I need a White industries eccentric hub? As you can tell I don't really want to use a
    > chain tensioner if I can help it. With a frame that good looking why ruin it by hanging stuff on
    it.
    > I rode around today using only my 32 and11 gear Sheldon again helps me out by saying that's 75
    > gear inches. I envisage myself being fitter after three months cycling in Asia so 82 gear inches
    > shouldn't be too hard around town.
    >
    > --
    > Cheers Damian Harvey
    >
    > This space reserved for standard disclaimer, witty quote, plug for own business in caps and large,
    > bad ASCII art.

    Let's see - you want a multispeed bike with a gear change system that involves changing wheels and
    chain length and you strongly prefer an eccentric of some sort to a simple horizontal end. Do I have
    that right?

    I would suggest getting two bikes - one with two low gears (fixed/freewheel) and one with high gears
    (ditto), both with horizontal ends. They need not be expensive for the purposes you mention - maybe
    a $few hundred if you go to the Jon Isaacs school of "executive pre-driven" bikes and build your own
    fixed hubs into the extant wheels.

    If you are dead set on an Orbea ( you seem to like them) , a local frame shop could yank out those
    pesky vertical ends and put in a set of real track ends for less than you would spend on kludges.
    --
    Andrew Muzi, self-conscious about sig today http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
    April 1971
     
  12. Corvus Corvax <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Glenn Druery" <[email protected]> wrote
    > >
    > > If you're after a new bike and want to be the fastest kid in town a Lowracer is the only way
    > > to go.

    I think he's onto something: Lowracer Cyclocross! I see a great need.
     
  13. Ant

    Ant Guest

    "Gemma Kernich" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Get track ends rather than dropouts - make life a lot easier!!

    why easier? you mean track ends are easier than vertical dropouts? i agree. but i think that
    horizontal dropouts are the easiest of all. (brake alignment, wheel removal, etc etc)
     
  14. Jim Edgar

    Jim Edgar Guest

    Damian Harvey at [email protected] wrote on 4/20/03 11:30 PM:
    > something lighter, faster and simpler than my MTB.

    Damian, reread your sentance...especially the "simpler" bit...

    > I've got my eye on an Orbea ciclocross frame,

    vertical dropouts, my friend, are not your friend in this matter.

    and if you wanted to have an all-weather city bike, fenders are your friend
    - how's the clearance on that frame?

    > The frame looks like it has semi-vertical dropouts? Do these count as vertical?

    Pretty danged vertical...

    > If they are, can I get a frame builder (is there one in Adelaide?) to retrofit horizontal
    > dropouts?

    Look, if you're gonna put the pig in a tutu, you're probably better off buying an actual
    dancing monkey...

    > My final question is one of cost. Assuming all else is equal, forks, bars, brakes etc, will a
    > singlespeed be cheaper than a multispeed bike?

    The forks, bars, brakes will all cost the same regardless of what frame you put them on. ;^)

    I just checked out the ENO hub by White Industries at the Sea Otter Classic, and felt it was a
    finely executed solution to a vert dropout bike conundrum. I probably will upgrade to one when my
    existing SS mtb hub (actually a shimmed 8 sp freewheel hub) finally goes poof. I don't have any
    feedback for longevity at this point.

    http://www.whiteind.com/eno.htm

    Other -- Cursory Googling arrives at these:

    http://www.somafab.com/ http://www.surlybikes.com/ http://www.desalvocycles.com/steel_single.html
    http://www.rocklobstercycles.com/frames/single.html http://www.spotbikes.com/
    http://www.ncnca.org/cyclocross/2002/crosslinks.html
     
  15. Tom

    Tom Guest

    Hmm, steaming with inteligence...

    Tom

    [email protected] (Corvus Corvax) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Glenn Druery" <[email protected]> wrote
    > >
    > > If you're after a new bike and want to be the fastest kid in town a Lowracer is the only way
    > > to go.
    >

    >
    > CC
     
  16. Tom

    Tom Guest

    http://www.cheekymonkey.com.au/

    Damian, have a look at Cheeky Monkey in Sydney.

    They sell Surley frames and ride singlespeed and all other breeds of bikes. If your are passing
    through Sydney they are well worth a visit, and righ near Central Station so you can train it to the
    shop form the airport for a quik visit on the way through.

    I ride an old roadie with 38 16 and 27" rear wheel, and that is a bit steep for unfit me in sydney.

    If you are riding round town in adelaide go for gold with something like that, but up in the hills
    I'd recommend a setup more like 30 16

    Oh and the flip flop is a pain in the arse. Try the singlspeed and then build up a flip flop if
    you need it. I think you'll be pleased with the lack of choice making one gear just right for
    most rides.

    Singlespeed is silent riding with no gears to confuse the ride. The less choice the more pleasent
    the ride. Sounds strange to most but give it a go and see for yourself...

    Tom
     
  17. "ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > > Get track ends rather than dropouts - make life a lot easier!!
    >
    > why easier? you mean track ends are easier than vertical dropouts? i agree. but i think that
    > horizontal dropouts are the easiest of all. (brake alignment, wheel removal, etc etc)

    I see your point for the brake alignment, I forgot he was talking about a cyclocross frame (and here
    I was thinking "brake? What brake?") *grin*

    Gemma
     
  18. Andrew G

    Andrew G Guest

    "ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    : "Gemma Kernich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    : > Get track ends rather than dropouts - make life a lot easier!!
    :
    : why easier? you mean track ends are easier than vertical dropouts? i agree. but i think that
    : horizontal dropouts are the easiest of all. (brake alignment, wheel removal, etc etc)

    chain adjustment...............??
     
  19. Ant

    Ant Guest

    > : "Gemma Kernich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > : > Get track ends rather than dropouts - make life a lot easier!!
    > :

    > "ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > : why easier? you mean track ends are easier than vertical dropouts? i agree. but i think that
    > : horizontal dropouts are the easiest of all. (brake alignment, wheel removal, etc etc)
    >

    "andrew G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > chain adjustment...............??

    Well, i still like horizontal dropouts. the only realistic reason for track fork ends in my book is
    that there is no (very slight) change in the frame geometry as you move the rear axle back and forth
    to adjust for different gears. then again, i dont know whether that tiny angle would actually be
    perceptible in the handling.

    this assumes adequate QR/bolt tightening, without which rear-facing ends might have a slight margin
    of safety for wheel pullout.

    horizontal road dropouts, some more than others, certainly have plenty of chain adjustment, i
    find. ive seen horizontal road dropouts with what appears to be more adjustability than some fork
    ends ive seen.

    anyways, the other reason, i just thought of, is that fork ends look cool.
     
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