Sleeping hrs and Racing Training

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Fascat, Jan 24, 2003.

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  1. Fascat

    Fascat Guest

    How many hours of sleep do you get per day? I know this is a racing forum but I also know that many
    of you are knowledgeable on the subject.

    I have read about Euro racers taking naps after races and workouts and then getting 10 hrs that
    night, day after day. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means
    more growth hormone secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an
    athlete to train harder and more frequently. I think that was a run-on sentence :)

    Personally, I have been struggling with getting 8hrs of sleep. I either can't fall asleep or I wake
    up way too early. I train hard 6 days a week. I drink coffee but not after 9am. I'm just curious to
    get the opinions of other before I begin to worry. Thx in advance

    -F
     
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  2. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    On 24 Jan 2003 06:21:06 -0800, [email protected] (FasCat) wrote:

    >How many hours of sleep do you get per day? I know this is a racing forum but I also know that many
    >of you are knowledgeable on the subject.

    Training threads are few and far between.

    And then turn into a flame war about whether you need an 11 or not.

    --
    Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
    top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen
     
  3. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    who gives a shit what they are sleeping. if you aren't getting sick, and your times/strengths are
    improving keep it up. maybe you not going hard enough during your workouts, maybe you have anxiety?
    figure your own style out and let it rip....
     
  4. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "FasCat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth hormone
    > secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete to train
    > harder and more frequently.

    While lack of adequate sleep can certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep =
    more growth hormone secretion = better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you
    heard that from doesn't know diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.

    Andy Coggan
     
  5. >Subject: Re: Sleeping hrs and Racing Training From: "Andy Coggan" [email protected] Date:
    >1/24/03 1:05 PM Central Standard Time Message-id:
    ><[email protected]>
    >
    >"FasCat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >>. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth hormone
    >> secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete to train
    >> harder and more frequently.
    >
    >While lack of adequate sleep can certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep =
    >more growth hormone secretion = better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you
    >heard that from doesn't know diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.
    >
    >Andy Coggan

    I completely agree with the Doc here. I have been living on about 6-7hrs of sleep a night for years
    now and did fine with racing.

    Although I must note that this offseason I have made an effort to get at least 8hrs a night and it
    has made a huge difference in my training. I feel more rested because of the extra sleep.

    jason
     
  6. Cycling Joe

    Cycling Joe Guest

    --------------090308070100010907070703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    In the warmer months when I'm riding nearly everyday I do well on 9 hours of sleep. In the winter I
    notice I can get by easily on 6 but feel sluggish. I notice that as soon as I start training the
    sleep requirement goes way up and I could easily sleep 9-11 hours. Whether I actually need that much
    is not known, but mentally and physically I feel I'm in best form with that much.

    Jason Waddell wrote:

    >>Subject: Re: Sleeping hrs and Racing Training From: "Andy Coggan" [email protected] Date:
    >>1/24/03 1:05 PM Central Standard Time Message-id:
    >><[email protected]>
    >>
    >>"FasCat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >>
    >>>. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth
    >>> hormone secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete
    >>> to train harder and more frequently.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>While lack of adequate sleep can certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep =
    >>more growth hormone secretion = better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you
    >>heard that from doesn't know diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.
    >>
    >>Andy Coggan
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    >I completely agree with the Doc here. I have been living on about 6-7hrs of sleep a night for years
    >now and did fine with racing.
    >
    >Although I must note that this offseason I have made an effort to get at least 8hrs a night and it
    >has made a huge difference in my training. I feel more rested because of the extra sleep.
    >
    >jason
    >
    >

    --------------090308070100010907070703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
    </head> <body> In the warmer months when I'm riding nearly everyday I do well on 9 hours of
    sleep. In <br> the winter I notice I can get by easily on 6 but feel sluggish. I
    notice that as soon as I start<br> training the sleep requirement goes way up and I could easily
    sleep 9-11 hours. Whether I <br> actually need that much is not known, but mentally and
    physically I feel I'm in best form <br> with that much. <br> <br> Jason Waddell wrote:<br>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="[email protected]"> <blockquote
    type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Subject: Re: Sleeping hrs and Racing Training From: "Andy Coggan" <a
    class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> Date:
    1/24/03 1:05 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:F7g-
    [email protected]"><[email protected]
    thlink.net></a>

    "FasCat" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
    href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a> wrote in message <a
    class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:[email protected]">news:c624-
    [email protected]</a>... </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">.
    Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth hormone
    secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete to train
    harder and more frequently. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">While lack of adequate sleep can
    certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep = more growth hormone secretion =
    better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you heard that from doesn't know
    diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.

    Andy Coggan </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->

    I completely agree with the Doc here. I have been living on about 6-7hrs of sleep a night for years
    now and did fine with racing.

    Although I must note that this offseason I have made an effort to get at least 8hrs a night and it
    has made a huge difference in my training. I feel more rested because of the extra sleep.

    jason </pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

    --------------090308070100010907070703--
     
  7. FasCat wrote:

    > How many hours of sleep do you get per day? I know this is a racing forum but I also know that
    > many of you are knowledgeable on the subject.

    You need 11. Some can get away with 12.
     
  8. I would agree with JTN: Your need to rest is particular to you. I wouldn't change purely for the
    sake of change. If you feel like you are tired, get more rest; if you aren't tired don't worry about
    it. However, when you change your training, i.e. sudden increase in time riding or increase in
    intesity, expect your body to need more rest until it adapts to the new training.

    Personally, the more I trained the deeper my sleep was and I actually needed less sleep than when I
    was training lightly or not training.
     
  9. Fascat

    Fascat Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "FasCat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >. Numerous articles and studies tout sleep's benefits because more sleep means more growth
    > > hormone secretion from the pituitary gland which means greater recovery which allows an athlete
    > > to train harder and more frequently.
    >
    > While lack of adequate sleep can certainly interfere with training, the notion that more sleep =
    > more growth hormone secretion = better training adaptions is bogus. Whatever author or coach you
    > heard that from doesn't know diddly-squat about the physiology of exercise and training.
    >
    > Andy Coggan

    I'm trying to think where I read that. I'm not gonna name names but I think it was.... Nope not
    gonna do it. Everybody, thanks for the feedback. I guess I'm just getting old. In college I could
    sleep at will. Anytime any place. Even in my early 20's I had to set the 'ol alarm clock on the
    weekends so I wouldn't sleep 'til noon. Late twenties--would get up around 8am no alarm clock. But
    the past couple of mornings I've friggin' woken up too early. Its the whole should I race and train
    full time or should I walk away from the sport on a high note and get on with a career. 'Anxiety' as
    someone said.
     
  10. Bbc3

    Bbc3 Guest

    "FasCat" wrote:
    > I'm trying to think where I read that. I'm not gonna name names but I think it was.... Nope not
    > gonna do it.

    Please attempt to arrange these completely random words for the answer:

    Friel, Bible, Training, Cyclist's, Joe ....

    --
    Bill
     
  11. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "FasCat" wrote:
    > > I'm trying to think where I read that. I'm not gonna name names but I think it was.... Nope not
    > > gonna do it.
    >
    > Please attempt to arrange these completely random words for the answer:
    >
    > Friel, Bible, Training, Cyclist's, Joe ....

    You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was key to training
    adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so deep-rooted.

    Andy Coggan
     
  12. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    On 24 Jan 2003, FasCat wrote:

    > of mornings I've friggin' woken up too early. Its the whole should I race and train full time
    > or should I walk away from the sport on a high note and get on with a career. 'Anxiety' as
    > someone said.
    >
    I see. This an attempt to turn the group into your own personal
    psychology forum. Sleep on it, is my advice.

    ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [email protected] Kyle Legate [email protected]

    Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca moon
    musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...
     
  13. Bbc3

    Bbc3 Guest

    "Andy Coggan" wrote:
    > You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was
    key
    > to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so
    deep-rooted.

    I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each workout and for each sleep
    cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2 workouts split by a nap for this very reason. I
    think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted to look for the facts behind this
    assertion.

    --
    Bill
     
  14. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, BBC3 <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Andy Coggan" wrote:
    > > You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was
    > key
    > > to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so
    > deep-rooted.
    >
    > I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each workout and for each sleep
    > cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2 workouts split by a nap for this very reason. I
    > think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted to look for the facts behind this
    > assertion.

    Long workouts encourage secretions of cortisol, which IIRC is not condusive to growth and recovery.
    Twice daily, shorter workouts can be used instead for some types of training to reduce cortisol
    production, and often with a nap in between the workouts to help recovery. I used to know the 10K
    World Record (26:12 I think it was) holder and he followed this format, along with many other top
    athletes. But then, he trained for a living so all he had to do on most days was get up, run, rest,
    run some more, sleep, and eat. Why wouldn't he sleep a few times per 24 hours?

    -WG
     
  15. BBC3 wrote:

    > I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each workout and for each sleep
    > cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2 workouts split by a nap for this very reason. I
    > think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted to look for the facts behind this
    > assertion.

    Triathlete's Training Bible, p9: "...it's during sleep that the body restores energy levels, and
    releases growth hormone to repair damage and grow stronger."

    p16: "Sleeping and working out have a synergistic effect on fitness. Each can cause the release of
    growth hormone from the pituitary gland. Growth hormone speeds recovery, rebuilds muscles and
    breaks down body fat. By training twice daily, the dedicated athlete gets four hits of growth
    hormone daily resulting in higher levels of fitness sooner."

    But then he also suggests that by taking contraceptive pills, women get an increased level of growth
    hormone. Hang on, didn't that US spinter use that as an excuse...?

    STF Currently 3 workouts a day and two naps, but not for the reasons Friel suggests...
     
  16. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Andy Coggan" wrote:
    > > You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was
    > key
    > > to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so
    > deep-rooted.
    >
    > I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each
    workout
    > and for each sleep cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2
    workouts
    > split by a nap for this very reason. I think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted to
    > look for the facts behind this assertion.

    Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
    physiological adaptations to exercise training.

    Andy Coggan
     
  17. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:240120032239249930%[email protected]...

    > Long workouts encourage secretions of cortisol, which IIRC is not condusive to growth and
    > recovery.

    Chronic elevation of cortisol, such as occurs with major trauma or burn injury, plays a significant
    role in the catabolic response that results. However, "triple hormone" studies (i.e., infusion of
    epinephrine, glucagon, and cortisol, the three major catabolic hormones secreted by the body in
    response to injury - and exercise) have shown that in the first 48-72 hours, cortisol does not exert
    any significant effects. As well, blocking the cortisol response to acute exercise has no apparent
    impact on metabolism. Thus, if cortisol plays any role in training adaptations, overtraining
    effects, etc., one would expect that it is related to more long-term changes in secretion, and may
    not be readily modifiable via manipulation of workout duration/timing.

    Andy Coggan
     
  18. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > p16: Growth hormone speeds recovery, rebuilds muscles and breaks down body
    fat.

    Friel is wrong: growth hormone doesn't "rebuild muscles" (see studies by Yarasheski et al., among
    others), and it requires pharmacological/non-physiological doses of it to stimulate lipolysis.

    Andy Coggan
     
  19. Bbc3

    Bbc3 Guest

    "Andy Coggan" wrote:
    > Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
    > physiological adaptations to exercise training.

    This discussion is above my knowledge level, and that does not take long. However, I think you
    should let Joe Friel know if you feel so strongly about this. Perhaps he can provide some
    references. I don't know what to think about the growth hormone bit, but I can tell you from
    experience that two workouts per day seems to have a dramatic positive effect on my training. I
    guess it would be nice to know why this is.

    --
    Bill
     
  20. Fascat

    Fascat Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > "Andy Coggan" wrote:
    > > > You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was
    > key
    > > > to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so
    > > deep-rooted.
    > >
    > > I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each
    > workout
    > > and for each sleep cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2
    > workouts
    > > split by a nap for this very reason. I think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be tempted
    > > to look for the facts behind this assertion.
    >
    > Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
    > physiological adaptations to exercise training.
    >
    > Andy Coggan

    OK, OK, why is growth hormone widely used as a performance enhancing doping product?
     
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