Sleeping hrs and Racing Training

[Top Sirloin]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:49:44 GMT, "BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Andy Coggan" wrote:
>> Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
>> physiological adaptations to exercise training.
>
>This discussion is above my knowledge level, and that does not take long. However, I think you
>should let Joe Friel know if you feel so strongly about this. Perhaps he can provide some
>references. I don't know what to think about the growth hormone bit, but I can tell you from
>experience that two workouts per day seems to have a dramatic positive effect on my training. I
>guess it would be nice to know why this is.

I think you just answered your own question. Two workouts is more than one. I think I read a study
somewhere that showed a cumulative endurance effect from two workouts (if they were close enough)
but I can't remember where.

Holding your breath also increases growth hormone levels but I wouldn't advocate
it.

Cortisol is also not a totally "bad" hormone. Some inflammation is needed for muscle recovery
and growth.

--

Scott Johnson "I made the best gains of my life when I dumped the "oh me so tired" **** and started
getting on with it for real." -Bryce Lane

 

[Andy Coggan]

"FasCat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:cVpY9.25435$Ve4.3528@sccrnsc03...
> > > "Andy Coggan" wrote:
> > > > You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion
was
> > key
> > > > to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so
> > > deep-rooted.
> > >
> > > I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each
> > workout
> > > and for each sleep cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2
> > workouts
> > > split by a nap for this very reason. I think Friel is a pretty sharp
guy,
> > > so I would be tempted to look for the facts behind this assertion.
> >
> > Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
> > physiological adaptations to exercise training.
> >
> > Andy Coggan
>
> OK, OK, why is growth hormone widely used as a performance enhancing doping product?

Probably for the same stupid reason that people inject themselves with ATP, even though it does
absolutely no good at all.

Andy Coggan

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "FasCat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > "BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:cVpY9.25435$Ve4.3528@sccrnsc03...
> > > > "Andy Coggan" wrote:
> > > > > You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone
secretion
> was
> > > key
> > > > > to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so
> > > > deep-rooted.
> > > >
> > > > I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each
> > > workout
> > > > and for each sleep cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2
> > > workouts
> > > > split by a nap for this very reason. I think Friel is a pretty
sharp
> guy,
> > > > so I would be tempted to look for the facts behind this assertion.
> > >
> > > Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays
a
> > > significant role in the physiological adaptations to exercise
training.
> > >
> > > Andy Coggan
> >
> > OK, OK, why is growth hormone widely used as a performance enhancing doping product?
>
> Probably for the same stupid reason that people inject themselves with
ATP,
> even though it does absolutely no good at all.
>
> Andy Coggan

I might add, there's a flaw in your logic anyway - that is, there's a difference between
administering a hormone in pharmacological doses in an attempt to elicit some response, vs. claiming
that changes in the endogenous secretion of that hormone due to a little "cat nap" here and there is
an important physiological mechanism accounting for training-induced improvements in performance.
Take EPO, for example - given via injection, it is a powerful ergogenic aid, but you'd be
hard-pressed to match that effect by e.g., breathing a hypoxic gas a couple of hours a day.

Andy Coggan

 

[Bbc3]

"Andy Coggan" wrote:
> I might add, there's a flaw in your logic anyway - that is, there's a difference between
> administering a hormone in pharmacological doses in an attempt to elicit some response, vs.
> claiming that changes in the
endogenous
> secretion of that hormone due to a little "cat nap" here and there is an important physiological
> mechanism accounting for training-induced improvements in performance. Take EPO, for example -
> given via injection,
it
> is a powerful ergogenic aid, but you'd be hard-pressed to match that
effect
> by e.g., breathing a hypoxic gas a couple of hours a day.

I was under the impression that breathing a hypoxic gas (such as regular air at altitude) was
exactly what you do when you sleep in an altitude tent. Are you saying there is no (or perhaps very
little) benefit to sleeping in one of these things, or perhaps living at a fairly high altitude and
training at a lower altitude? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying?

Oh well, I like cat naps anyway so no real harm in taking one. Perhaps it is an important
physiological/psychological mechanism for me. I'd still like to see you (Andy) and Friel go head to
head on this one.

--
Bill

 

[Andy Coggan]

"BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:I4FY9.34328$Ve4.4615@sccrnsc03...
> "Andy Coggan" wrote:
> > I might add, there's a flaw in your logic anyway - that is, there's a difference between
> > administering a hormone in pharmacological doses in
an
> > attempt to elicit some response, vs. claiming that changes in the
> endogenous
> > secretion of that hormone due to a little "cat nap" here and there is an important physiological
> > mechanism accounting for training-induced improvements in performance. Take EPO, for example -
> > given via
injection,
> it
> > is a powerful ergogenic aid, but you'd be hard-pressed to match that
> effect
> > by e.g., breathing a hypoxic gas a couple of hours a day.
>
> I was under the impression that breathing a hypoxic gas (such as regular
air
> at altitude) was exactly what you do when you sleep in an altitude tent. Are you saying there is
> no (or perhaps very little) benefit to sleeping in one of these things, or perhaps living at a
> fairly high altitude and training at a lower altitude? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying?

Note that I qualified my statement based on A) a quantitative comparison to direct injection of EPO
(which can stimulate a large increase in hematocrit in a short period of time), and B) specifying a
couple of hours of hypoxic exposure, not overnight. I have in fact recently carefully reviewed the
relevant scientific literature on the effects of hypoxia on EPO secretion, red cell mass, etc., and
do believe that an altitude tent, if used wisely, can enhance performance.

> Oh well, I like cat naps anyway so no real harm in taking one. Perhaps it is an important
> physiological/psychological mechanism for me. I'd still like to see you (Andy) and Friel go head
> to head on this one.

Why - do you like one-sided arguments? ;-)

Andy Coggan

 

[Mike Owens]

FasCat wrote:

> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > "BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:cVpY9.25435$Ve4.3528@sccrnsc03...
> > > "Andy Coggan" wrote:
> > > > You're kidding - Friel actually claimed the growth hormone secretion was
> > key
> > > > to training adaptations? I didn't realize that the idea was so
> > > deep-rooted.
> > >
> > > I believe the claim is that you get a hit of growth hormone for each
> > workout
> > > and for each sleep cycle. If I remember correctly Friel suggests 2
> > workouts
> > > split by a nap for this very reason. I think Friel is a pretty sharp guy, so I would be
> > > tempted to look for the facts behind this assertion.
> >
> > Apparently not sharp enough, if he believes that growth hormone plays a significant role in the
> > physiological adaptations to exercise training.
> >
> > Andy Coggan
>
> OK, OK, why is growth hormone widely used as a performance enhancing doping product?

Because they don't know better. Where did Friel do his endocrinology fellowship? In what scientific
journal has Friel, or anyone else, published a paper on sleep- training patterns with concomitant
endocrine and exercise performance data? Other than the GDR steroid data and the well-established
EPO data, there is precious little real evidence that any of the other myriad of witchcraft works.
The large use of corticosteroids Voet notes in his book is also without a sound scientific rationale
although some plausible explanations are available. -Mike

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:240120032239249930%[email protected]...
>
> > Long workouts encourage secretions of cortisol, which IIRC is not condusive to growth and
> > recovery.
>
> Chronic elevation of cortisol, such as occurs with major trauma or burn injury, plays a
> significant role in the catabolic response that results. However, "triple hormone" studies (i.e.,
> infusion of epinephrine, glucagon, and cortisol, the three major catabolic hormones secreted by
> the body in response to injury - and exercise) have shown that in the first 48-72 hours, cortisol
> does not exert any significant effects. As well, blocking the cortisol response to acute exercise
> has no apparent impact on metabolism. Thus, if cortisol plays any role in training adaptations,
> overtraining effects, etc., one would expect that it is related to more long-term changes in
> secretion, and may not be readily modifiable via manipulation of workout duration/timing.

I recall that the reason cortisol secretions could be bad is because cortisol inhibits testosterone
secretions.

-WG

 

[Dave Hansen]

"BBC3" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:I4FY9.34328$Ve4.4615@sccrnsc03...

I'd still like to see you (Andy) and Friel go head to head on this one. Bill

My vote is on the Doc. Dave