Slight clicking noise.

[Martin Wilson]

On my commute home this morning from my nightshift I could hear a
slight clicking noise coming from my pedals/bb that only occured once
per rotation and only when peddling. It got a little worse near the
end of the journey.

As I'm sure some will remember I only ride a cheap £60 mountain bike
and started riding this bike at 26 stone. I.e. its not had an easy
life as bikes go.

Anyway when I got home I stripped the BB and with the various
component parts I could see the bearings were contaminated with little
bits of metal (tiny bits) but the bearings themselves looked fine. The
people at the factory in taiwan/china hadn't been particularly
generous with the grease thats for sure and what was there was
contiaminated with the bits of metal. Anyway I took the two bearings
assemblies and dipped them in white spirit to clean them and then
examined them to see if any of the bearings were damaged, scraped or
faulty but they all looked fine. When I originally took off the crank
arms I noticed that as well as being a bit rough going round it was
extremely hard to rotate without the crankarms attached. Is it normal
to be tightened up this much?

Anyway I cleaned up the inside, applied generous amounts of grease to
the bearings assemblies and axle and didn't tighten up the main screw
in end as much as previously. Then put back the little locking ring
and finally the crank arms making sure these were extra tight.

Is there anything else I should have done?

One note about the grease. I used industrial/engineering grease as I
use at work for servicing 'Itaya' machines.

This type of thing;

http://www.itaya.co.jp/product/mcsg/index.htm

We basically use the same sort of grease on loads of hardware. Its
pretty good stuff and gets used on some very fast and demanding
equipment. However I realise there may be some sort of extra
protection offered by proper cycle grease in that it copes with the
outdoor elements.

Any useful pointers or cheap sources of high quality cycle grease
would be appreciatted.

 

[MSeries]

Martin Wilson wrote:
> On my commute home this morning from my nightshift I could hear a
> slight clicking noise coming from my pedals/bb that only occured once
> per rotation and only when peddling. It got a little worse near the
> end of the journey.
>
> As I'm sure some will remember I only ride a cheap £60 mountain bike
> and started riding this bike at 26 stone. I.e. its not had an easy
> life as bikes go.
>
> Anyway when I got home I stripped the BB and with the various
> component parts I could see the bearings were contaminated with
little
> bits of metal (tiny bits) but the bearings themselves looked fine.
The
> people at the factory in taiwan/china hadn't been particularly
> generous with the grease thats for sure and what was there was
> contiaminated with the bits of metal. Anyway I took the two bearings
> assemblies and dipped them in white spirit to clean them and then
> examined them to see if any of the bearings were damaged, scraped or
> faulty but they all looked fine. When I originally took off the crank
> arms I noticed that as well as being a bit rough going round it was
> extremely hard to rotate without the crankarms attached. Is it normal
> to be tightened up this much?
>
> Anyway I cleaned up the inside, applied generous amounts of grease to
> the bearings assemblies and axle and didn't tighten up the main screw
> in end as much as previously. Then put back the little locking ring
> and finally the crank arms making sure these were extra tight.
>
> Is there anything else I should have done?
>
> One note about the grease. I used industrial/engineering grease as I
> use at work for servicing 'Itaya' machines.
>
> This type of thing;
>
> http://www.itaya.co.jp/product/mcsg/index.htm
>
> We basically use the same sort of grease on loads of hardware. Its
> pretty good stuff and gets used on some very fast and demanding
> equipment. However I realise there may be some sort of extra
> protection offered by proper cycle grease in that it copes with the
> outdoor elements.
>
> Any useful pointers or cheap sources of high quality cycle grease
> would be appreciatted.

Sounds like you did a pretty good job to me. I found that with this
type of BB that you need to tighten the loose cup a tad more than you
think you should so that turning the axle with your fingers feels like
it is being restricted slightly. It shouldn't grind though. Be careful
when tightening the lock ring that the loose cup doesn't move. Sealed
bottom brackets deskill this job a lot and make it much easier to do
the job properly and quickly. FWIW I used to use Halfords silicon
grease on hubs and BBs, now I use sealed bottom brackets.

 

[Martin Wilson]

>Sounds like you did a pretty good job to me. I found that with this
>type of BB that you need to tighten the loose cup a tad more than you
>think you should so that turning the axle with your fingers feels like
>it is being restricted slightly. It shouldn't grind though. Be careful
>when tightening the lock ring that the loose cup doesn't move. Sealed
>bottom brackets deskill this job a lot and make it much easier to do
>the job properly and quickly. FWIW I used to use Halfords silicon
>grease on hubs and BBs, now I use sealed bottom brackets.

Maybe I haven't tightened it enough. I tightened it up to what I
thought was tight and then tightened it a little more but its not
quite as tight as the factory tightness.

I'm sure a sealed BB is the ideal but I was pleasantly surprised by
the quality of construction of the various parts. I wasn't quite as
impressed with the generiousity with regards grease. I'm also curious
about the bits of metal. Did I cause them somehow? Was it contaminates
from the factory itself. Could the bearings have originally been so
rough that they have gradually been shaped/smoothed with use and the
bits of metal are from them?

Maybe because of my weight I will repeatedly get problems from the BB,
perhaps I need to upgrade the bearings assemblies or go for a sealed
BB. What are the recommended upgrades here if I do need to go for a
more heavy duty design?

 

[Paul - xxx]

Martin Wilson vaguely muttered something like ...

> Any useful pointers or cheap sources of high quality cycle grease
> would be appreciatted.

Sounds like you did the right thing. Only real difference is that "decent"
bottom brackets these days use sealed bearings ... And most BB's would use a
waterproof grease, ie a grease that won't wash out in the firs downpour you
ride in ..

--
Paul ...

(8(|) Homer Rules !!!

"A ****** is a ******, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

 

[David Martin]

On 6/10/04 10:55 am, in article [email protected],
"Martin Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> However I realise there may be some sort of extra
> protection offered by proper cycle grease in that it copes with the
> outdoor elements.
>
> Any useful pointers or cheap sources of high quality cycle grease
> would be appreciatted.

You should have realised by now that the only cycle grease worth using comes
in small tubes and costs a fortune.

;-)

But seriously, sounds like you did the right thing. Were the bearings caged
or loose?

I just examined my BB after stripping down the road bike for a respray. I'll
change it for a cartridge one but I was quite impressed, it looks in very
good order on the one side (non-fixed) with what looks like the start of
some pitting (frenelling?) on the fixed side. And most useful was the
dimensions and so on printed on the axle..

...d

 

[Martin Wilson]

On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:59:53 +0100, "Paul - ***"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Martin Wilson vaguely muttered something like ...
>
>> Any useful pointers or cheap sources of high quality cycle grease
>> would be appreciatted.
>
>Sounds like you did the right thing. Only real difference is that "decent"
>bottom brackets these days use sealed bearings ... And most BB's would use a
>waterproof grease, ie a grease that won't wash out in the firs downpour you
>ride in ..

It is water resistant but how resistant I don't know and that may be a
long way from waterproof. I'll have to check on it.

 

[Martin Wilson]

>You should have realised by now that the only cycle grease worth using comes
>in small tubes and costs a fortune.
>
>;-)
>

Well the stuff I'm using is about £55 I think for a five gallon drum?!

>But seriously, sounds like you did the right thing. Were the bearings caged
>or loose?
>

caged luckily. Makes it a lot easier to maintain/service. I suspect
I'd still be moving tables now trying to find the one that got away
otherwise.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Martin Wilson
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On my commute home this morning from my nightshift I could hear a
> slight clicking noise coming from my pedals/bb that only occured once
> per rotation and only when peddling. It got a little worse near the
> end of the journey.
>
> As I'm sure some will remember I only ride a cheap £60 mountain bike
> and started riding this bike at 26 stone. I.e. its not had an easy
> life as bikes go.
>
> Anyway when I got home I stripped the BB and with the various
> component parts I could see the bearings were contaminated with little
> bits of metal (tiny bits) but the bearings themselves looked fine. The
> people at the factory in taiwan/china hadn't been particularly
> generous with the grease thats for sure and what was there was
> contiaminated with the bits of metal. Anyway I took the two bearings
> assemblies and dipped them in white spirit to clean them and then
> examined them to see if any of the bearings were damaged, scraped or
> faulty but they all looked fine. When I originally took off the crank
> arms I noticed that as well as being a bit rough going round it was
> extremely hard to rotate without the crankarms attached. Is it normal
> to be tightened up this much?

No.

Are you sure you're not missing a ball? I agree (particularly with
ultra-cheap bikes) there may be some mill swarf in there, but your
description 'contaminated with little bits of metal' sounds exactly
like what you get when a ball collapses.

> Anyway I cleaned up the inside, applied generous amounts of grease to
> the bearings assemblies and axle and didn't tighten up the main screw
> in end as much as previously. Then put back the little locking ring
> and finally the crank arms making sure these were extra tight.
>
> Is there anything else I should have done?
>
> One note about the grease. I used industrial/engineering grease as I
> use at work for servicing 'Itaya' machines.

Sounds fine to me. I just use basic lithium grease in bearings. The
bearing wants to be snug (so you can't move the axle except in
rotation) but not so tight that it's lumpy or stiff in rotation.

Incidentally I got given one of these high-tensile steel bikes by my LBS
yesterday, to chop up for a project I'm working on. I was given it
because the frame had broken!

> We basically use the same sort of grease on loads of hardware. Its
> pretty good stuff and gets used on some very fast and demanding
> equipment. However I realise there may be some sort of extra
> protection offered by proper cycle grease in that it copes with the
> outdoor elements.

It should not be an issue inside the bottom bracket. Yes, if water gets
in the grease will emulsify and corrosion will start, but you have to
be doing some fairly extreme things to get water into the bottom
bracket.

> Any useful pointers or cheap sources of high quality cycle grease
> would be appreciatted.

I use copper grease on threads especially when putting aluminium into
steel or vice versa, but apart from that either spray on white grease
or your bog standard lithium stuff. In any case don't buy it from a
bike shop - it comes in thimblefuls for serious money, whereas if you
get it from an industrial supplier the same amount of money buys at
least ten times and sometimes a hundred times as much grease.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Martin Wilson
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Maybe because of my weight I will repeatedly get problems from the BB,
> perhaps I need to upgrade the bearings assemblies or go for a sealed
> BB. What are the recommended upgrades here if I do need to go for a
> more heavy duty design?

Bottom bracket bearings are, until you get into seriously esoteric
stuff, pretty cheap. What's critical is the width of the shell (and
currently there are only two standard widths, 68mm for most road bikes
and 73mm for most mountain bikes), the thread (usually
English/British/ISO - right cup has reverse thread - but there are
others so beware!), and the length of the axle.

See <URL:http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#bottom> for more.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
;; then Perl is executable line noise
-- seen on Slashdot.

 

[Alan Braggins]

Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>Bottom bracket bearings are, until you get into seriously esoteric
>stuff, pretty cheap. What's critical is the width of the shell (and
>currently there are only two standard widths, 68mm for most road bikes
>and 73mm for most mountain bikes), the thread (usually
>English/British/ISO - right cup has reverse thread - but there are
>others so beware!), and the length of the axle.

If one were to turn a bottom bracket over so the left cup had the
reverse thread, say because one had used the bottom half of the downtube
as the boom of a SWB recumbent but still wanted the chainrings on the
right, how much of a problem would this be likely to cause?
(So the stub of the seatpost is now pointing downwards - useless for fitting
a front derailleur, but assume this downtube makes a better boom than the
seatpost would apart from leaving the bracket the wrong way around.)

 

[David Martin]

On 6/10/04 1:35 pm, in article
[email protected], "Simon Brooke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Are you sure you're not missing a ball? I agree (particularly with
> ultra-cheap bikes) there may be some mill swarf in there, but your
> description 'contaminated with little bits of metal' sounds exactly
> like what you get when a ball collapses.

Cheap bike to a budget? Sounds like mill swarf, especially as the bearings
are caged and appear to be all there.

...d

 

[Clive George]

"Alan Braggins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Simon Brooke wrote:
> >
> >Bottom bracket bearings are, until you get into seriously esoteric
> >stuff, pretty cheap. What's critical is the width of the shell (and
> >currently there are only two standard widths, 68mm for most road bikes
> >and 73mm for most mountain bikes), the thread (usually
> >English/British/ISO - right cup has reverse thread - but there are
> >others so beware!), and the length of the axle.
>
> If one were to turn a bottom bracket over so the left cup had the
> reverse thread, say because one had used the bottom half of the downtube
> as the boom of a SWB recumbent but still wanted the chainrings on the
> right, how much of a problem would this be likely to cause?
> (So the stub of the seatpost is now pointing downwards - useless for
fitting
> a front derailleur, but assume this downtube makes a better boom than the
> seatpost would apart from leaving the bracket the wrong way around.)

Theoretically there's a bit of a precessional force tending to unscrew the
cups in this case. I'd just suck it and see - if it did start coming undone,
I'd reassemble with some threadlock rather than grease, and that would
definitely sort it out. But I reckon it probably won't shift anyway.

cheers,
clive

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Clive George
('[email protected]') wrote:

> "Alan Braggins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> If one were to turn a bottom bracket over so the left cup had the
>> reverse thread, say because one had used the bottom half of the
>> downtube as the boom of a SWB recumbent but still wanted the
>> chainrings on the right, how much of a problem would this be likely
>> to cause? (So the stub of the seatpost is now pointing downwards -
>> useless for
> fitting
>> a front derailleur, but assume this downtube makes a better boom than
>> the seatpost would apart from leaving the bracket the wrong way
>> around.)
>
> Theoretically there's a bit of a precessional force tending to unscrew
> the cups in this case.

According to the great Sheldon, 'french' and 'italian' bottom brackets,
which have conventional threads both ends, suffer from this theoretical
problem in practice.
See <URL:http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#bottom>

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Wise man with foot in mouth use opportunity to clean toes.
;; the Worlock

 

[Alan Braggins]

Simon Brooke wrote:
>in message <[email protected]>, Clive George
>('[email protected]') wrote:
>> "Alan Braggins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> If one were to turn a bottom bracket over so the left cup had the
>>> reverse thread, say because one had used the bottom half of the
>>> downtube as the boom of a SWB recumbent but still wanted the
>>> chainrings on the right, how much of a problem would this be likely
>>> to cause? (So the stub of the seatpost is now pointing downwards -
>>> useless for
>> fitting
>>> a front derailleur, but assume this downtube makes a better boom than
>>> the seatpost would apart from leaving the bracket the wrong way
>>> around.)
>>
>> Theoretically there's a bit of a precessional force tending to unscrew
>> the cups in this case.
>
>According to the great Sheldon, 'french' and 'italian' bottom brackets,
>which have conventional threads both ends, suffer from this theoretical
>problem in practice.
>See <URL:http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html#bottom>

And having both ends wrong will presumably be even more prone to problems
than having both ends right-hand-threaded. But I'm unlikely to be working
as hard as some riders, so might get away with it. Hmmm.
(Actually I'd confused myself - putting the seattube stub underneath
brings the bracket back to normal after turning it front to back,
it's being able to use it to mount a derailleur that leads to wanting
to put the chainrings on the other end of the bracket. The two obvious
answers are to use a single chainring, or weld a derailleur mount tube
in the right place instead of trying to make one end up there.
(If I could afford a Schlumf drive, I wouldn't be looking at scrap
bicycles to assemble. Hmm, Schlumf site doesn't work in Mozilla, but
they now do a geared unicycle hub.))

 

[Martin Wilson]

>Are you sure you're not missing a ball? I agree (particularly with
>ultra-cheap bikes) there may be some mill swarf in there, but your
>description 'contaminated with little bits of metal' sounds exactly
>like what you get when a ball collapses.

No missing balls but I suppose the gritty bits of metal could have
come from a ball or the cage but I don't think so although I can't
tell for sure.

>

>
>Sounds fine to me. I just use basic lithium grease in bearings. The
>bearing wants to be snug (so you can't move the axle except in
>rotation) but not so tight that it's lumpy or stiff in rotation.
>

From memory I think it is lithium grease at work but I shall check
this.

>Incidentally I got given one of these high-tensile steel bikes by my LBS
>yesterday, to chop up for a project I'm working on. I was given it
>because the frame had broken!
>

Why didn't they return it under warranty as these cheap high tensile
bikes normally have quite long guarantees on their frames? Typically a
company like universal who are one of the main importers give 15 years
on high tensile steel frames but only 1 year on the more expensive
aluminium frames. I have no illusion that HT steel frames don't fail
just that in my situation I believe rightly or wrongly that they are
stronger than aluminium generally and if it does fail (which is more
likely with my weight) I have a reduced chance of victory as hopefully
it will give me some warning i.e. bend rather than fragment. As I say
though I have two aluminium bikes (Kona Lanai and Giant Revive) ready
in the wing and really want to ride but both have weight restrictions
that prevent me from using them at the moment (absolute maximum of
300lb on kona and 125kg on Revive). Currently I'm over 300lbs when
dressed and with a backbag on. I'm almost there with regards the Kona
though.


>I use copper grease on threads especially when putting aluminium into
>steel or vice versa, but apart from that either spray on white grease
>or your bog standard lithium stuff. In any case don't buy it from a
>bike shop - it comes in thimblefuls for serious money, whereas if you
>get it from an industrial supplier the same amount of money buys at
>least ten times and sometimes a hundred times as much grease.

Well the stuff at work which is premum quality stuff is about £70 inc
vat for 5 gallons I think (2ft+ high drum) would probably work out at
about 2p for the amount you get in a LBS toothpaste tube of it.

 

[Martin Wilson]

>> Any useful pointers or cheap sources of high quality cycle grease
>> would be appreciatted.
>
>Recently I've been using Park grease, which is nice as it comes in a
>toothpaste-style tube. Previously I had used the same tub of Castrol LM
>grease for about a decade, but it was getting a bit mucky.

The stuff that is available at work has the following spec;

INTRODUCTION
This multi complex hydroxystereate lubricating grease conforms to the
latest specifications and is approved by leading bearing manufacturers
and automotive manufacturers for industrial and automotive use.
SwanTek® Multi Complex EP2 Grease shows exceptional stability
performance giving a wide operating temperature range of -20 to +150°C
continuous, and up to 180°C for short bursts.
A specially developed multipurpose grease for all anti-friction and
plain bearing applications.
FEATURES
1. Good mechanical stability
2. Good oxidation stability
3. Good corrosion resistance
4. Good load carrying properties
5. Good oil separation
6. Wide temperature range
7. Good pumpability
8. Impact resistance
9. Compatible with other greases

TYPICAL PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS
Appearance Adhesive grease
Colour Red sparkle
NLGI class 2
Worked penetration (IP50) 265 - 295
Roll stability (ASTM D1831)100 hrs + 30 max.
Dropping point (IP132) oC 250 min.
Oil separation (IP121) 4%
Copper corrosion (IP112) Negative
Dynamic corrosion resistance
(EMCOR) (IP220) 0,0
Shell 4 Ball - Weld Load (IP239)450kg
Timken OK load (IP326) Kg. (lbs.)20 (45)
Base oil viscosity (IP71) @ 40oC cSt.180
Base oil viscosity index (IP226) 85
Base oil pour point (IP15) oC-18


Also in my previous posting the word 'victory' should of course been
'injury'. Not sure what I was thinking there to write 'victory'.

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Martin Wilson wrote:

> The stuff that is available at work has the following spec;
>
> INTRODUCTION
> This multi complex hydroxystereate lubricating grease conforms to the
> latest specifications and is approved by leading bearing manufacturers
> and automotive manufacturers for industrial and automotive use.

Well, that should be fine then. Bicycle applications aren't really very
demanding anyway.