Slight knee pain/cleat position/seat position.

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Claes, Dec 11, 2005.

  1. Claes

    Claes New Member

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    Hi guys the backside of my knee, a tendon at the absolute top of my calf, gives me pain when I cycle, and off the cycle, walking up stairs, produces a "clicking" sensation in the back of the knee so to speak.

    Now here are some thoughts, I would appreciate any ideas.

    1. Read in a magazine that pain in the back of the knees is cured with
    lowering the saddle. I think I have it low enough, I can "drop" the heel under the pedal axle, when clipped in and in the bottom position, without moving on the saddle.

    2. I have noticed that I do not sit completely "straight" on the bike. What I mean is that my hip/a*s seems twisted, so that the left leg/knee, comes closer to the frame, and the right leg, comes further away from the frame. I feel I am not sitting straight on the saddle I think. The saddle is straight, I have a cervelo soloist, and the saddle can only be straight due to the aero post.

    3. My right foot, is a little bit longer than the left foot, this means that my left foot sits further "back" on the pedal, at least the heel does so to speak.
    This moves my right leg back compared to the left leg. This would twist my hips/a*s/legs/knees as in 2 above. Could this cause 1 above?
    I am thinking of adjusting the cleats, bring the right foot, slightly back, and the left foot slight forward, so the cleats are in the same fore/aft position on both, meaning that the heels on both feet will be in the "same" position.


    I hope you can understand what I mean. I am sick and tired of my kneeproblems on this bike. I have been off the bike for months, got rid of the problems, back again and issues. I have NEVER had these issues on any bike before. The MTB does not seem to irritate at all. So, I reckon the issue is with my cleat, seat position. I also have a fairly pronounced drop to the bars, would that aggravate this? I does not feel weird when sitting on the bike though, can go for 3 hour spins without any serious pains, other than knee. The pain is such that I can usually ride, feel it for the first 10 mins or so, then gone for the rest of the ride, maybe feel it now and then for a moment during the ride. Feel it in stairs as said before though. Anyone had similar problems and cured them?
     
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  2. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    Claes wrote:
    > Hi guys the backside of my knee, a tendon at the absolute top of my
    > calf, gives me pain when I cycle, and off the cycle, walking up stairs,
    > produces a "clicking" sensation in the back of the knee so to speak.
    >
    > Now here are some thoughts, I would appreciate any ideas.
    >
    > 1. Read in a magazine that pain in the back of the knees is cured with
    > lowering the saddle. I think I have it low enough, I can "drop" the
    > heel under the pedal axle, when clipped in and in the bottom position,
    > without moving on the saddle.
    >
    > 2. I have noticed that I do not sit completely "straight" on the bike.
    > What I mean is that my hip/a*s seems twisted, so that the left
    > leg/knee, comes closer to the frame, and the right leg, comes further
    > away from the frame. I feel I am not sitting straight on the saddle I
    > think. The saddle is straight, I have a cervelo soloist, and the saddle
    > can only be straight due to the aero post.
    >
    > 3. My right foot, is a little bit longer than the left foot, this means
    > that my left foot sits further "back" on the pedal, at least the heel
    > does so to speak.
    > This moves my right leg back compared to the left leg. This would twist
    > my hips/a*s/legs/knees as in 2 above. Could this cause 1 above?
    > I am thinking of adjusting the cleats, bring the right foot, slightly
    > back, and the left foot slight forward, so the cleats are in the same
    > fore/aft position on both, meaning that the heels on both feet will be
    > in the "same" position.
    >
    >
    > I hope you can understand what I mean. I am sick and tired of my
    > kneeproblems on this bike. I have been off the bike for months, got rid
    > of the problems, back again and issues. I have NEVER had these issues on
    > any bike before. The MTB does not seem to irritate at all. So, I reckon
    > the issue is with my cleat, seat position. I also have a fairly
    > pronounced drop to the bars, would that aggravate this? I does not feel
    > weird when sitting on the bike though, can go for 3 hour spins without
    > any serious pains, other than knee. The pain is such that I can usually
    > ride, feel it for the first 10 mins or so, then gone for the rest of the
    > ride, maybe feel it now and then for a moment during the ride. Feel it
    > in stairs as said before though. Anyone had similar problems and cured
    > them?


    Go and see Emma Colsen - http://www.topbike.com.au/physio.htm

    Or, Inspired Orthotics : http://www.ios.com.au/
     
  3. Bikesoiler

    Bikesoiler New Member

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    My 2c worth*

    If I had knee pain, or any position related pain, on one of my bikes I'd find someone qualified &/or experienced to check my fit.

    Take both bikes & your shoes etc to "someone" & get measured.

    *warning I am not a sports physio, nor do I play one on TV.
     
  4. tony f

    tony f Guest

    "Claes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Hi guys the backside of my knee, a tendon at the absolute top of my
    > calf, gives me pain when I cycle, and off the cycle, walking up stairs,
    > produces a "clicking" sensation in the back of the knee so to speak.
    >
    > Now here are some thoughts, I would appreciate any ideas.
    >
    > 1. Read in a magazine that pain in the back of the knees is cured with
    > lowering the saddle. I think I have it low enough, I can "drop" the
    > heel under the pedal axle, when clipped in and in the bottom position,
    > without moving on the saddle.
    >
    > 2. I have noticed that I do not sit completely "straight" on the bike.
    > What I mean is that my hip/a*s seems twisted, so that the left
    > leg/knee, comes closer to the frame, and the right leg, comes further
    > away from the frame. I feel I am not sitting straight on the saddle I
    > think. The saddle is straight, I have a cervelo soloist, and the saddle
    > can only be straight due to the aero post.
    >
    > 3. My right foot, is a little bit longer than the left foot, this means
    > that my left foot sits further "back" on the pedal, at least the heel
    > does so to speak.
    > This moves my right leg back compared to the left leg. This would twist
    > my hips/a*s/legs/knees as in 2 above. Could this cause 1 above?
    > I am thinking of adjusting the cleats, bring the right foot, slightly
    > back, and the left foot slight forward, so the cleats are in the same
    > fore/aft position on both, meaning that the heels on both feet will be
    > in the "same" position.
    >
    >
    > I hope you can understand what I mean. I am sick and tired of my
    > kneeproblems on this bike. I have been off the bike for months, got rid
    > of the problems, back again and issues. I have NEVER had these issues on
    > any bike before. The MTB does not seem to irritate at all. So, I reckon
    > the issue is with my cleat, seat position. I also have a fairly
    > pronounced drop to the bars, would that aggravate this? I does not feel
    > weird when sitting on the bike though, can go for 3 hour spins without
    > any serious pains, other than knee. The pain is such that I can usually
    > ride, feel it for the first 10 mins or so, then gone for the rest of the
    > ride, maybe feel it now and then for a moment during the ride. Feel it
    > in stairs as said before though. Anyone had similar problems and cured
    > them?
    >


    Do you use the same shoes on the mtb and roadie? If so, the cleat position
    is probably OK (although your thoughts on different foot size sound
    logical). I'd have expected the problems on both bikes if it was cleats (and
    you wear the same shoes).

    Are your measurements the same on both bikes? No, not your inner leg, the
    distance from seat to pedal, seat to bars, etc? You made a comment on the
    drop to the bars - mtbs certainly sit you more upright.

    Are you just trying to push too big a gear? Mtbs are geared much lower, so
    you put less force on your knees - especially when climbing.

    A fit specialist may help, or they may give you a good starting point. Can't
    be a bad thing.

    Hope that's some help

    Tony F
     
  5. Claes

    Claes New Member

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    Different shoes for the different bikes. I do ride the MTB with the seat lower than the road bike, simply to aid off road riding, sliding behind the seat, absorbing bumps while seated and stuff.

    I do not ride with a low cadency, I sit at 95 to 103 on the flats. Riding steep up hill, I still maintain high 80s.

    Going to a "fit specialist" is definately an option. More ideas are still welcome.
     
  6. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    Claes wrote:

    > Going to a "fit specialist" is definately an option. More ideas are
    > still welcome.


    Wave chicken gibblets over your helmet, tie a garter belt to your
    seatpost and ride while doing gregorian chants and clapping your hands
    in time to the orbit of mars.

    Or, see a specialist with repetitive strain injuries like we're all
    suggesting.
     
  7. warrwych

    warrwych New Member

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    www.cyclingnews.com has a Fitness Q&A column (searchable) where bike fit and hip/knee/ankle/leg pain are perennial problems addressed. You may find some guidance and tips there. But like the others, after doing your research, I would then seek help from a qualified person (and NOT a LBS sales person) eg IOS or Emma Coulson types.

    I say do your research first, so that 1) you understand what the h3ll the qualified person is saying to you when they are discussing your problem and 2) so you also have an idea if they are really addressing your problem or just spinning you some fairy dust.
     
  8. alison_b

    alison_b New Member

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    Maybe the answer is hidden here? http://www.bikenow.com.au/u-fit/index.htm

    Good luck with it...

    cheers,
    Ali
     
  9. Graeme Dods

    Graeme Dods Guest

    On 11 Dec 2005 20:14:12 -0800, Bleve wrote:

    > Wave chicken gibblets over your helmet, tie a garter belt to your
    > seatpost and ride while doing gregorian chants and clapping your hands
    > in time to the orbit of mars.
    >
    > Or, see a specialist with repetitive strain injuries like we're all
    > suggesting.


    I'm off to pick up my orthotics this evening to help fix a similar problem.
    Just in case they don't work, what's the orbital period of Mars, or do I
    swing a Mars bar on a string round my head and clap in time to that? Would
    sticking "Masters of Chant II" [1] on the CD work rather than chanting
    myself (which would endanger anyone within earshot)?

    Graeme

    [1] WTF I have this for I don't know, Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" has
    never sounded so bad!
     
  10. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    Graeme Dods wrote:
    > On 11 Dec 2005 20:14:12 -0800, Bleve wrote:
    >
    > > Wave chicken gibblets over your helmet, tie a garter belt to your
    > > seatpost and ride while doing gregorian chants and clapping your hands
    > > in time to the orbit of mars.
    > >
    > > Or, see a specialist with repetitive strain injuries like we're all
    > > suggesting.

    >
    > I'm off to pick up my orthotics this evening to help fix a similar problem.
    > Just in case they don't work, what's the orbital period of Mars, or do I
    > swing a Mars bar on a string round my head and clap in time to that? Would
    > sticking "Masters of Chant II" [1] on the CD work rather than chanting
    > myself (which would endanger anyone within earshot)?


    You got the garter belt? That's the most important part.

    > [1] WTF I have this for I don't know, Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" has
    > never sounded so bad!


    You -could- swap a lost soul for a goldfish bowl, which might work ...
     
  11. On 2005-12-12, Graeme Dods <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Would
    > sticking "Masters of Chant II" [1] on the CD work rather than chanting
    > myself (which would endanger anyone within earshot)?
    >
    > Graeme
    >
    > [1] WTF I have this for I don't know, Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here" has
    > never sounded so bad!


    Masters of Chant was a decent CD. I assumed, when I picked up #2, that
    it was of similar quality.

    I was wrong.

    I admit it.

    Hm ... I need CDs to scare away the birds from my fruit trees ... I see
    a use for it in the near future!

    --
    My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
    the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".
     
  12. Theo Bekkers

    Theo Bekkers Guest

    Stuart Lamble wrote:

    > Masters of Chant was a decent CD. I assumed, when I picked up #2, that
    > it was of similar quality.


    Try to get a copy of Pigorian Chant. Hilarious! I've played it as background
    when I've got new visitors. They don't get it until I tell them to listen
    really carefully.

    Theo
     
  13. Claes

    Claes New Member

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    Thanx for the useful replies, no thanx for the not so useful replies.
    I found some interesting stuff, will try that, if that fails, I'll try an authority.
    Bike was setup by an authority, bike coach.

    The stuff I found regarded seat height, which I could suffer from I guess, and cleat position.

    Still found no advice on how to handle feet that are not the same size, only 5 mm difference though.

    The cleats are probably more different than 5 mm, so I'll try to set the right foot back a bit, so the cleat has the exact same postion on the shoe as my left foot. Costs nothing, and is inline with some recomendations of running my shoe size, with the ball of your foot 10 mm in front of axle. Since left side gives no hassle I'll leave it put for now.
     
  14. Tamyka Bell

    Tamyka Bell Guest

    Claes wrote:
    >
    > Thanx for the useful replies, no thanx for the not so useful replies.
    > I found some interesting stuff, will try that, if that fails, I'll try
    > an authority.
    > Bike was setup by an authority, bike coach.
    >
    > The stuff I found regarded seat height, which I could suffer from I
    > guess, and cleat position.
    >
    > Still found no advice on how to handle feet that are not the same size,
    > only 5 mm difference though.
    >
    > The cleats are probably more different than 5 mm, so I'll try to set
    > the right foot back a bit, so the cleat has the exact same postion on
    > the shoe as my left foot. Costs nothing, and is inline with some
    > recomendations of running my shoe size, with the ball of your foot 10
    > mm in front of axle. Since left side gives no hassle I'll leave it put
    > for now.
    >
    > --
    > Claes


    Hello, one more reply coming.

    I had my bike setup by a guru (not to be confused with a lesser expert
    or lower authority, this man is a guru). He was shocked and amazed when
    he looked at my arches - my feet are the same length, but one arch is
    longer and flatter than the other. It's actually about a centimetre
    longer.

    So I adjusted my cleats so the pedal axle falls in the same spot,
    relative to the "ball of the foot bone behind the big toe" to put it
    completely non-technically and avoid the use of the word metatarsal.

    Tam
     
  15. Claes

    Claes New Member

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    Thanx for the info Tam. I have always, on my other bikes, tried to have the cleats set like you describe, the accepted practice ASFAIK, and never had any problems. I also had the cleats like that until now, but for some reason, on this bike, my left knee falls in towards the frame a bit when I do that. I also found some advice saying that the ball of the foot should be slightly in front of the pedal axle at 3 o'clock. The motivation goes like, otherwise you are behind the axle at 1 o'clock where you do put in a lot of power. Anyhow, my right foot is now slightly, about 4-5 mm in front of the axle, left ball is on the axle, I rode bike in to have it serviced this morning, and I do sit straighter on the bike, the left knee does not fall in as much. So, step in right direction I think.
     
  16. Bikesoiler

    Bikesoiler New Member

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    What about swapping pedals & shoes between the bikes? or at least trying the MTB pedals & shoes or the road bike?
     
  17. Tamyka Bell

    Tamyka Bell Guest

    Claes wrote:
    >
    > Tamyka Bell Wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > Hello, one more reply coming.
    > >
    > > I had my bike setup by a guru (not to be confused with a lesser expert
    > > or lower authority, this man is a guru). He was shocked and amazed
    > > when
    > > he looked at my arches - my feet are the same length, but one arch is
    > > longer and flatter than the other. It's actually about a centimetre
    > > longer.
    > >
    > > So I adjusted my cleats so the pedal axle falls in the same spot,
    > > relative to the "ball of the foot bone behind the big toe" to put it
    > > completely non-technically and avoid the use of the word metatarsal.
    > >
    > > Tam

    > Thanx for the info Tam. I have always, on my other bikes, tried to have
    > the cleats set like you describe, the accepted practice ASFAIK, and
    > never had any problems. I also had the cleats like that until now, but
    > for some reason, on this bike, my left knee falls in towards the frame
    > a bit when I do that. I also found some advice saying that the ball of
    > the foot should be slightly in front of the pedal axle at 3 o'clock.
    > The motivation goes like, otherwise you are behind the axle at 1
    > o'clock where you do put in a lot of power. Anyhow, my right foot is
    > now slightly, about 4-5 mm in front of the axle, left ball is on the
    > axle, I rode bike in to have it serviced this morning, and I do sit
    > straighter on the bike, the left knee does not fall in as much. So,
    > step in right direction I think.
    >
    > --
    > Claes


    Also try standing in front of the mirror with your toes straight ahead
    and check out your knees - does one point in more than the other? You
    may need to have the cleats at slightly different angles.

    Being an asymmetric freak can be annoying :D

    Tam
     
  18. GPLama

    GPLama Guest

    "Bikesoiler" wrote in message ...
    >
    > trying the MTB pedals & shoes or the road bike?
    >
    >


    I think that is illegal in a few states...


    cheers,
    GPL
    :who has roadie pedals on an MTB!:
     
  19. Graeme Dods

    Graeme Dods Guest

    On 11 Dec 2005 21:09:45 -0800, Bleve wrote:

    > You got the garter belt? That's the most important part.


    Nah, I lent it to Euan as it matched his Irn Bru jersey.


    (eeuch, horrible mental picture that, sorry!)
     
  20. Claes

    Claes New Member

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    Yepp, trying the mtb stuff on the roadbike could be an option too.
    I am starting with the stuff that is on it now, new pedals there too.

    C
     
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