Slow down call to save lives - and cash

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Pauline, Apr 2, 2003.

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  1. Pauline

    Pauline Guest

    I read in the local rag that there's a new campaign to reduce speeding in an effort to save the NHS
    cash. Quote : 'The Warwickshire Casualty Reduction Partnership, campaigning for drivers to slow
    down, says one speed-related crash resulting in serious injuries can cost a hospital up to
    £100,000.'

    http://makeashorterlink.com/?D51262F04

    Is this part of a national campaign?

    Pauline
     
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  2. ChrisW

    ChrisW New Member

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    Call me a sentimentalist, but isn't the avoidance of serious injuries reason enough?

    Chris Walker

     
  3. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    "Pauline" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I read in the local rag that there's a new campaign to reduce speeding in
    an
    > effort to save the NHS cash. Quote : 'The Warwickshire Casualty Reduction Partnership, campaigning
    > for drivers to slow down, says one speed-related crash resulting in serious injuries can cost a
    > hospital up to £100,000.'
    >
    > http://makeashorterlink.com/?D51262F04
    >
    > Is this part of a national campaign?
    >
    > Pauline

    Don't know about a new campaign, measures have been introduced country wide
    to slow urban traffic down for some years now. In Hull, 25% of the city is
    now 20 mph max speed and casualties are at an all time low, so it does work.
    --
    Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W http://www.simonmason.karoo.net
     
  4. Paul Smith

    Paul Smith Guest

    On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:40:31 +0000 (UTC), "Pauline" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I read in the local rag that there's a new campaign to reduce speeding in an effort to save the NHS
    >cash. Quote : 'The Warwickshire Casualty Reduction Partnership, campaigning for drivers to slow
    >down, says one speed-related crash resulting in serious injuries can cost a hospital up to
    >£100,000.'

    >http://makeashorterlink.com/?D51262F04

    >Is this part of a national campaign?

    It's just spin from a speed camera partnership press officer, however, in as much as "road safety"
    via speed cameras is a national campaign, then yes it is.

    Sadly they have yet to determine that speed cameras or speed reductions reduce accidents or
    casualties. Indeed, no reductions are visible in any of the national figures which could reasonably
    be attributed to speed cameras.

    The fatality rate indicator shows an extremely worrying loss of performance since we based our road
    safety policy on speed and speed reduction. I blame speed cameras and the policies which support
    them for causing about 5,000 extra road deaths to date.

    http://www.safespeed.org.uk/fatality.html
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
    cameras cost lives
     
  5. In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...
    > On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:40:31 +0000 (UTC), "Pauline" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Is this part of a national campaign?

    Pauline, you have to be careful about mentioning speed around here or our resident monkey is liable
    to put in an appearance.

    Colin
     
  6. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    "Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Sadly they have yet to determine that speed cameras or speed reductions reduce accidents or
    > casualties. Indeed, no reductions are visible in any of the national figures which could
    > reasonably be attributed to speed cameras.
    >
    > The fatality rate indicator shows an extremely worrying loss of performance since we based our
    > road safety policy on speed and speed reduction. I blame speed cameras and the policies which
    > support them for causing about 5,000 extra road deaths to date.

    So you would say that a child being hit at 40 mph has the same chance of survival as one hit as 20
    mph? You might have seen a recent Auto Express article that featured Hull's 115 separate 20 mph
    zones and how they have helped reduce ped and cyclist casualties, if not I might be able to find
    the article. No speed cameras exist , it's all physical impediments, so it's not for revenue
    generation.

    --
    Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W http://www.simonmason.karoo.net
     
  7. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    "wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Usual drivel from resident ar*ehole snipped ...
    >
    > Then Simon wrote quite sensibly ...
    >
    > > So you would say that a child being hit at 40 mph has the same chance of
    > > survival as one hit as 20 mph? You might have seen a recent Auto Express
    > > article that featured Hull's 115 separate 20 mph zones and how they have
    > > helped reduce ped and cyclist casualties, if not I might be able to find
    the
    > >article. No speed cameras exist , it's all physical impediments, so it's
    not
    > >for revenue generation.
    >
    > Ye gods, Simon, it doesn't take the resident ar*ehole long from chipping
    in
    > with his usual drivel, does it. The man should be sectioned ;-)

    I'm waiting for him to show me the figures that prove 20 mph limits don't reduce casualties. Then
    I can say that I was obviously reading a blatantly biased anti-car article (based on incorrect
    data) in that well known organ of anti-car tirades --- Auto Express.

    Simon
     
  8. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Colin Blackburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] says...
    > > On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:40:31 +0000 (UTC), "Pauline" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >Is this part of a national campaign?
    >
    > Pauline, you have to be careful about mentioning speed around here or our resident monkey is
    > liable to put in an appearance.

    Too late. I mentioned ze var -- but I tink ve got avay viv it!!

    Oh no -- the resident monkey popped out of the woodwork. I thought he had given up & gone
    away. Shame!!
     
  9. Paul Smith

    Paul Smith Guest

    On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:37:21 +0100, "Simon Mason" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> Sadly they have yet to determine that speed cameras or speed reductions reduce accidents or
    >> casualties. Indeed, no reductions are visible in any of the national figures which could
    >> reasonably be attributed to speed cameras.

    >> The fatality rate indicator shows an extremely worrying loss of performance since we based our
    >> road safety policy on speed and speed reduction. I blame speed cameras and the policies which
    >> support them for causing about 5,000 extra road deaths to date.

    >So you would say that a child being hit at 40 mph has the same chance of survival as one hit
    >as 20 mph?

    I deny the link between free travelling speed and impact speed. Sometimes impact speeds are higher
    when free travelling speeds are lower. In fact, nationwide injury accidents are more likely to
    result in deaths or serious injuries in 20mph zones than 30mph zones.

    http://www.safespeed.org.uk/percentages.html

    >You might have seen a recent Auto Express article that featured Hull's 115 separate 20 mph zones
    >and how they have helped reduce ped and cyclist casualties, if not I might be able to find the
    >article. No speed cameras exist , it's all physical impediments, so it's not for revenue
    >generation.

    I totally accept that in certain circumstances traffic calming in general might be beneficial. When
    I investigated the benefits for Hull, which showed something like a 30% improvement, I also
    discovered that adjacent towns showed a near comparable 25% improvement over the same period. I
    didn't find much of interest and didn't write it up.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
    cameras cost lives
     
  10. Graeme Dods

    Graeme Dods Guest

    [email protected] (wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > >
    > >"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:5lhl8vsb4hv56v4[email protected]...
    >
    > Usual drivel from resident ar*ehole snipped ...

    Nah, he's not *resident*, he's more like one of those annoying nurdy neighbours that drop by from
    time to time. You try to be polite to them, but in the end you just have this irresistable urge to
    tell them to f*** off. I think he holds a glass up against the wall waiting to hear the word "SPEED"
    then next thing you know he's barged in uninvited :)

    Have fun!

    Graeme
     
  11. Dave Kahn

    Dave Kahn Guest

    [email protected] (wafflycathcsdirtycatlitter) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Ye gods, Simon, it doesn't take the resident ar*ehole long from chipping in with his usual drivel,
    > does it. The man should be sectioned ;-)

    I think the bright yellow speed cameras are dangerous as motorists automatically brake when they see
    them, even if they're already within the limit in a lot of cases. They obviously have no idea either
    what the limit is or how fast they're actually going. The answer of course is to hide the cameras
    but this brings predictable cries of "unfair" from the motoring lobby.

    Similarly the calibration marks painted on the road are too easily seen. Surely a paint could be
    used that would show up in the camera's flash but not be obvious to the naked eye - the opposite of
    the supposedly disappearing number plate - or, even better, a calibration template could be laid
    over the photograph with no need to mark the road at all.

    --
    Dave...
     
  12. Dave Kahn

    Dave Kahn Guest

    ChrisW <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Call me a sentimentalist, but isn't the avoidance of serious injuries reason enough?

    No, there has to be a cost-benefit analysis. We could stop all motor related injuries by banning
    motor vehicles altogether. Even most cyclists wouldn't go that far, and by extension you would also
    have to ban cycling as cyclists sometimes hurt themselves or each other or pedestrians without the
    help of motor vehicles. The argument that any measure that reduces serious injuries must be
    worthwhile is bogus.

    --
    Dave...
     
  13. [email protected] (Dave Kahn) wrote: ( Similarly the calibration marks painted on the road are
    too easily ) seen. Surely a paint could be used that would show up in the camera's ( flash but not
    be obvious to the naked eye - the opposite of the ) supposedly disappearing number plate - or,
    even better, a calibration ( template could be laid over the photograph with no need to mark the )
    road at all.

    If the calibration marks are not physically on the road it is too easy for the accused to argue that
    they are not accurate. Surely the right thing to do is to put calibration marks on much more of the
    road, if not on all of it?
     
  14. Paul "Wanker!" Smith [email protected] of Scotland, UK wrote:
    > I deny the link between free travelling speed and impact speed. Sometimes impact speeds are
    > higher when free travelling speeds are lower.

    Are you suggesting that "free travelling speed" and "impact speed" are negatively correlated, that
    they are entirely uncorrelated, or that the positive correlation is so small as to be insignificant
    for your purpose?
     
  15. Paul Smith

    Paul Smith Guest

    On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:19:05 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Geraint
    Jones) wrote:

    >> I deny the link between free travelling speed and impact speed. Sometimes impact speeds are
    >> higher when free travelling speeds are lower.

    >Are you suggesting that "free travelling speed" and "impact speed" are negatively correlated, that
    >they are entirely uncorrelated, or that the positive correlation is so small as to be insignificant
    >for your purpose?

    Most importantly, I suggest that "Within the range of influence of any imaginable degree of
    increased speed enforcement (using current technologies and enforcement systems) the correlation
    between free travelling speeds and impact speeds is between zero and negative, except perhaps at
    some very special accident black spot sites."

    i.e Excessive speed enforcement tends to increase accident severity.

    Please don't try to turn this into a semantic argument. Fully detailed definitions would take a long
    time to draft properly. I hope I've made my point. I can also make several other related points.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
    cameras cost lives
     
  16. In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] says...

    > I deny the link between free travelling speed and impact speed. Sometimes impact speeds are higher
    > when free travelling speeds are lower. In fact, nationwide injury accidents are more likely to
    > result in deaths or serious injuries in 20mph zones than 30mph zones.
    >
    > http://www.safespeed.org.uk/percentages.html

    Completely meaningless unless you show the KSI numbers for those self same streets when they were
    30mph limits. You are comparing apples and oranges.

    By the way, when are you going to remove those trend-lines on graphs 3.1 onwards which you have
    admitted are misleading and said that you would remove?

    Colin
     
  17. Paul Smith

    Paul Smith Guest

    On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:25:36 +0100, Colin Blackburn <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> I deny the link between free travelling speed and impact speed. Sometimes impact speeds are
    >> higher when free travelling speeds are lower. In fact, nationwide injury accidents are more
    >> likely to result in deaths or serious injuries in 20mph zones than 30mph zones.

    >> http://www.safespeed.org.uk/percentages.html

    >Completely meaningless unless you show the KSI numbers for those self same streets when they were
    >30mph limits. You are comparing apples and oranges.

    >By the way, when are you going to remove those trend-lines on graphs 3.1 onwards which you have
    >admitted are misleading and said that you would remove?

    The trend lines and supporting text are fine. There's no extrapolation which caused most of the
    discussions.
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
    cameras cost lives
     
  18. Paul "Wanker!" Smith [email protected] of Scotland, UK wrote: ( On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:19:05
    +0000 (UTC), ) [email protected] (Geraint Jones) wrote: ( ) >> I deny the link
    between free travelling speed and impact speed. ( >> Sometimes impact speeds are higher when free
    travelling speeds are ) >> lower. ( ) >Are you suggesting that "free travelling speed" and "impact
    speed" are ( >negatively correlated, that they are entirely uncorrelated, or that the ) >positive
    correlation is so small as to be insignificant for your purpose? ( ) Most importantly, I suggest
    that "Within the range of influence of any ( imaginable degree of increased speed enforcement (using
    current ) technologies and enforcement systems) the correlation between free ( travelling speeds and
    impact speeds is between zero and negative, ) except perhaps at some very special accident black
    spot sites."

    I see. I was concerned that I was unable to disagree with the precise wording which you used, since
    undoubtedly there are rare occasions on which the most unlikely of things happens, and so indeed
    "sometimes" the most bizarre things happen.

    Thank you for the clarification for which I confidently expect to enjoy watching you produce
    evidence, should you choose to do so.

    Now, these "very special accident black spot sites", they would be where impacts happen, would they?

    ) Please don't try to turn this into a semantic argument.

    Would you prefer a purely syntactic argument where we took no interest at all in the meaning of the
    words used? I could do you one of those if you wanted.
     
  19. Paul Smith

    Paul Smith Guest

    On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 17:43:42 +0100, Michael MacClancy <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>Most importantly, I suggest that "Within the range of influence of any imaginable degree of
    >>increased speed enforcement (using current technologies and enforcement systems) the correlation
    >>between free travelling speeds and impact speeds is between zero and negative, except perhaps at
    >>some very special accident black spot sites."

    >I'm sorry, but nothing can be between zero and negative. It would imply that there was something
    >between zero and negative, which there is not. Once you go below zero you are, by definition, in
    >negative no matter how infinitesimal your movement.

    You're quite correct. Still I don't suppose anyone had trouble understanding what I meant. Why is it
    worth bothering with such semantic or detail arguments especially when I noted:

    "Please don't try to turn this into a semantic argument. Fully detailed definitions would take
    a long time to draft properly. I hope I've made my point. I can also make several other
    related points."
    --
    Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
    cameras cost lives
     
  20. W K

    W K Guest

    "Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > Most importantly, I suggest that "Within the range of influence of any imaginable degree of
    > increased speed enforcement (using current technologies and enforcement systems) the correlation
    > between free travelling speeds and impact speeds is between zero and negative, except perhaps at
    > some very special accident black spot sites."

    Perhaps "people on the whole judge their 'safe' speed fairly well, but leave greater margins for
    error in places with lower hazard densities" ... "where hazard densities are random and unexpected,
    and have a low possibility of happening, people ignore this in their choice of speed" ie people
    drive too fast in towns.

    > i.e Excessive speed enforcement tends to increase accident severity.

    By what mechanisms? Apart from ones in your imagination based around stupid and 2 dimensional women
    that you can conjure up in your imagination.
     
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