Slow-Speed Injuries Hurt Too



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B

B. Sanders

Guest
"Westie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > "Westie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]m...
> > > > Stephen Baker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>The male riders I know are all about showing off and being hardcore. They love to brag
> > > > >>about how extreme they are, and
haven't
> a
> > > shred
> > > > >>of respect for anybody who shys away from the most difficult
trails.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That sounds like a dictionary definition of "A$$hole". The ones
> that
> > > make the
> > > > > most noise are prob-babbly the biggest Barneys of the bunch. Drop 'em, do what you want to
> > > > > do, and don't look back.
> > > >
> > > > If that's the way things truly are then I agree, but I think it may
> well
> > > > be different and our friend here has gossamer-like skin.
> >
> > Meaning what, exactly?
> >
> > > > Firstly, if they're your mates, then you should realise that they're going to give you stick
> > > > if you don't ride stuff. Friends often have
a
> > > > better idea of your strengths anyway, and banter amongst friends is
> par
> > > > for the course. Friends egging on each other is a very good way of progressing too, and
> > > > people are often surprised by their own
> abilities.
> >
> > I agree. Respectful banter can be good. Teaching skills to your friends
> is
> > even better (much better). Maybe if I was 19 instead of 41, I'd have
more
> > tolerance for that kind of pushiness. Maybe I'd have more of an invincibility syndrome that
> > would allow me to "go for it." Things
change
> as
> > you age. (Anybody here over 30?)
> >
> > > > Quite frankly, having someone of a similar ability who complained
> that
> > > > "it's too hard" every time we got to a technical bit of trail would
> get
> > > > right on my tits.
> >
> > Ok, fair enough. Why do you ride with other people if they get on your nerves?
> >
> > > > I think it's a good idea that people are aware of their limits, but
> what
> > > > about people who don't even get close to their limits and then
> complain
> > > > about their friends encouraging them?
> >
> > What about them? They like companionship; but don't like to be pushed.
> Is
> > that wrong? It's difficult to find male friends who aren't pushy and competitive, often to
> > recklessness. That's exactly what I'm trying to
> say.
> >
> > > I had a mate like that when we were in our early twenties. Had bought himself a Honda CBR600
> > > and wouldn't even go near the red line on the
rev
> > > counter. "Didn't like hearing the engine" is what he said. He might
as
> > > well have bought himself a nifty fifty for all he ever did with it.
> >
> > That's his choice, and you should respect that.
> >
>
> And while I never really understood it, Yes, I did respect it. You will notice that later in the
> post I mention that we always had to
wait
> for him, but not once did we not invite him because of that...
>
>
> > > It was almost embarrassing in some funny way, because he was cabable of
riding
> it
> > > better (he used to ride his Suzuki GN250 harder). We were always
> waiting
> > > for him to catch up. A waste of a bike in some other ways... I still
> > can't
> > > figure out what the problem was even now.
> >
> > And so for you, life is a race, is that right? If you're not racing,
then
> > you're not having fun? "Pushing it harder" isn't the ultimate life goal
> for
> > many people (even though that ethos is very popular nowadays, according
to
> > the media.)
> >
>
> I don't particularly push the boundaries on my bike/s either - be they
motor
> or mountain bikes - never have. Life a race? I don't consider myself highly competitive and
> never have.
But
> having said that, if my friends didn't push me sometimes, and if I didn't push myself, then I
> might as well just pack up and go home because mountainbiking is just _too_ hard for lil' ol' me.
>
> I'll give a friend a push and a ribbing if needed ( isn't that one of the things friends are for?)
> but I would never push someone beyond their skill level just to prove something. And if they don't
> appreciate the pushing after a couple of times, you, as a friend, learn to lay off it. One should,
> equally, be able to take some pushing. There are levels of abuse and I'm not sure that your
> friends are being insensitive. You shouldn't be surprised if your friends push you to take risks.
> It's a risky sport. Just getting on a bike is dangerous for some (when was the last time you fell
> off on the way home from the Pub, Shaun?). Likewise,
if
> you're a boxer don't complain if people are surprised when you refuse to take _any_ punches. Tell
> your friends to lay off and leave you to ride the way you want to.
You
> can always go for help when they break their necks.
> --
> Westie
>
>
> > You and I are from different planets. I respect your views and skills;
but
> > do not share them.

I was wrong, Westie. Maybe we're from the same planet after all. Thanks for the valuable
perspective. Hope we can ride together sometime.

-Barry
 
K

Kathleen

Guest
B. Sanders wrote:
> "Tom Walker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>><Tales of woe snipped>
>>
>>First off, get some new riding buddies with mental capacities that would at least match those of a
>>16 year old. I've ridden with a lot of different people with skill levels all over the map and
>>although some may push me to try new, difficult things harder than others, none have ever
>>disrespected me for declining the challenge. That's unacceptable and NOT common.
>
>
> Here in Illinois, I think many of the riders use attitude to prove to themselves that they're the
> equal of the hardcore riders they read about in the magazines. This is not mountain country.
> There aren't many trails. These guys haven't been humbled by epic lung-busting climbs and
> insanely twisty super-fast downhills. They're racer boy wannabe's, and they need desperately to
> pound their chests.
>
> Knuckledraggers are pathetic; but around here, they are in abundance.
>
>
>>It sounds like you both need a little more confidence on technical trails.
>
>
> That comes with experience, which I hope to get more of.
>
>
>>Usually, we get that confidence by rider with people who are better than us and courteous enough
>>show us a thing or two. since you don't have those people around you, I would suggest you both
>>take a beginner mountain biking class. The local advocacy group in my area (www.nemba.org) hold
>>several, and I've tought a few. They cover very basic mountain biking skills like obstacle
>>clearing, downhill riding, and the importance of basic balance skills. It usually takes a couple
>>of hours and you'll learn a TON. I guarantee you'll feel more confident after a similar class. If
>>your local club doesn't offer this, try to find a decent, skilled rider who will go over the
>>basics with you.
>
>
> Thank you for the excellent suggestion. I'm sure it would help a lot. I'm not such a klutz,
> y'know. Good balance, decades of riding experience. I just have very little desire to "go
> extreme". I have nothing to prove, and I wish others would respect that. Sure, I'd like to
> progress; but not for any particular purpose (such as racing).
>
>
>>I've seen plenty of people in these classes who were on the verge of quiting the sport after a few
>>too many episodes like yours. After learning the basics they looked at mtbing with a lot more
>>enthusiasm.
>
>
> What I need is a respectful peer group. My cycling club friends - who are very respectful and
> helpful - are completely intimidated by offroad biking. They've done it enough to know they'll
> never try it again. "I almost killed myself" and "I fell 5 times and almost broke my collar bone"
> are the kind of comments I get from them.
>
> I didn't post this to whine. I posted it to offer a new perspective that isn't common on this NG:
> A non-beginner with moderate skills who feels disrespect for not wanting to be "extreme." I'll bet
> I'm not the only guy who has had this experience.

I've been following this thread with both interest and puzzlement. I'm a forty-year-old
female. Moderate skills, been riding off-road since 1997. I will probably never be more than
a so-so rider because I am unwilling to push the envelope. See, it's not just about me. I
have a husband, two kids, a pair of dogs, and aging parents, all of whom rely upon me to one
degree or another. I am not expendable. I accept that there are certain baseline risks
inherent to the sport. I accept those risks because I believe that the benefits to my
physical and mental health far outweigh them. I will not, however, take additional risks on
top of those, for the sake of "mastering" the trail or impressing my fellow riders. If
there's a tough section and it looks like a mistake could cost me big time (for instance, a
thirty foot tumble down a rocky embankment), I'll walk it. Every single time. I mostly ride
alone or with my family. Those few times I find myself with a group, I've *felt* very little
pressure to push my limits, even when the occasional idiot has attempted to apply it.
Allowing people who would do such a thing to make you feel bad is like.... Like... (trying
to come up with an appropriate analogy here...) Oh, okay... It's like when you're sitting at
a stoplight, and some yahoo pulls up along side of you, staring over at you, gunning his
engine, challenging you to drag race, and then you feeling inferior when you decline, and
then decide it's *his* fault that you feel bad. The way I see it, you've got a couple of
options. Ride with the group for whatever positives it provides, and let the criticisms and
juvenile challenges roll off your back. Or make other arrangements. Ride alone (it's not
that much more dangerous, and frankly, probably less risky than riding with assholes).
Honestly, though, nobody should be able to make you feel bad unless you have some sort of
smouldering underlying issues that they can fan to life.

Kathleen
 
M

Martees

Guest
"Kathleen" <[email protected]> wrote some good stuff in message news:[email protected]...

I'm with you. I love to ride but I gave up "life risking" sports a long time ago (rappelling, rock
climbing, scuba etc). It's not just the risk though. I don't have the time or the inclination to
keep myself fit or skilled enough to stay on top of those sports enough to feel like I'm inside the
safety envelope. MTB'ing on the other hand is something I can do 2 or 3 times a week with minimal
prep and planning and have a blast.

Thanks.

Marty
 
D

D Heath

Guest
"Kathleen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]... ...
> I've been following this thread with both interest and puzzlement. I'm a forty-year-old female.
> Moderate skills, been riding off-road since 1997. I will probably never be more than a so-so rider
> because I am unwilling to push the envelope. See, it's not just about me. I have a husband, two
> kids, a pair of dogs, and aging parents, all of whom rely upon me to one degree or another. I am
> not expendable. I accept that there are certain baseline risks inherent to the sport. I accept
> those risks because I believe that the benefits to my physical and mental health far outweigh
> them. I will not, however, take additional risks on top of those, for the sake of "mastering" the
> trail or impressing my fellow riders. If there's a tough section and it looks like a mistake could
> cost me big time (for instance, a thirty foot tumble down a rocky embankment), I'll walk it. Every
> single time. I mostly ride alone or with my family. Those few times I find myself with a group,
> I've *felt* very little pressure to push my limits, even when the occasional idiot has attempted
> to apply it. Allowing people who would do such a thing to make you feel bad is like.... Like...
> (trying to come up with an appropriate analogy here...) Oh, okay... It's like when you're sitting
> at a stoplight, and some yahoo pulls up along side of you, staring over at you, gunning his
> engine, challenging you to drag race, and then you feeling inferior when you decline, and then
> decide it's *his* fault that you feel bad. The way I see it, you've got a couple of options. Ride
> with the group for whatever positives it provides, and let the criticisms and juvenile challenges
> roll off your back. Or make other arrangements. Ride alone (it's not that much more dangerous, and
> frankly, probably less risky than riding with assholes). Honestly, though, nobody should be able
> to make you feel bad unless you have some sort of smouldering underlying issues that they can fan
> to life.
>
> Kathleen

I've been following with great interest also. I have to second your observation that ones own
issues do come into play a great deal in determining whether pressure is applied or not. No one
can apply pressure where you don't allow it to find a place to rest in you. This lesson is
helpful in all areas of life.
--
Off to ride the mountains, Dale Heath To reply, poke out my eye.
 
B

Bb

Guest
On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:16:06 -0400, D Heath wrote:

> I've been following with great interest also. I have to second your observation that ones own
> issues do come into play a great deal in determining whether pressure is applied or not. No
> one can apply pressure where you don't allow it to find a place to rest in you. This lesson is
> helpful in all areas of life.

Well, if that's the case, then about 99% of the people I've met have "issues". Let's stop
bullshitting ourselves, people (particularly men) have egos. Its those egos that cause us to keep
re-trying things we didn't make the first time; its those egos that are the reason for the razzings
and those same egos affected that are by them.

I see ego all the time on the trail - probably more than any other place. I see guys get wigged out
when a stranger passes them (and killing themselves to get out ahead again); I've seen the smugness
on their faces they pass me on a climb (not knowing that I've been climbing for the past hour and
I'm twice their age).

I see it most from the riders who haven't been at it as many years, and haven't yet learned
humility. And of course, I see it more with younger guys; once we pass 40, we realize (either
through our own bad fortune or that of our riding buds) that a bad slow-speed fall could mean not
riding for the rest of the season, and no one obstacle is worth that. There are some obstacles that
I'll walk simply because I want to keep riding.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
 
P

Paladin

Guest
BB <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:16:06 -0400, D Heath wrote:
>
> > I've been following with great interest also. I have to second your observation that ones
> > own issues do come into play a great deal in determining whether pressure is applied or not.
> > No one can apply pressure where you don't allow it to find a place to rest in you. This
> > lesson is helpful in all areas of life.
>
> I see it most from the riders who haven't been at it as many years, and haven't yet learned
> humility. And of course, I see it more with younger guys; once we pass 40, we realize (either
> through our own bad fortune or that of our riding buds) that a bad slow-speed fall could mean not
> riding for the rest of the season, and no one obstacle is worth that. There are some obstacles
> that I'll walk simply because I want to keep riding.

Blaine, that makes so much good sense that you and I could be friends. Wait a minute, we already
are. Wonder why?

Paladin Another over 40 bread winner with not much left to prove...
 
C

Corvus Corvax

Guest
BB <[email protected]> whinged:
>
> Well, if that's the case, then about 99% of the people I've met have "issues". Let's stop
> bullshitting ourselves, people (particularly men) have egos.

So?

> Its those egos that cause us to keep re-trying things we didn't make the first time; its those
> egos that are the reason for the razzings and those same egos affected that are by them.

So?

> I've seen the smugness on their faces they pass me on a climb (not knowing that I've been climbing
> for the past hour and I'm twice their age).

And why should you care? You don't even know them. Shut the hell up and ride already.

CC
 
K

Kathleen

Guest
BB wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:16:06 -0400, D Heath wrote:
>
>
>> I've been following with great interest also. I have to second your observation that ones own
>> issues do come into play a great deal in determining whether pressure is applied or not. No
>> one can apply pressure where you don't allow it to find a place to rest in you. This lesson is
>> helpful in all areas of life.
>
>
> Well, if that's the case, then about 99% of the people I've met have "issues". Let's stop
> bullshitting ourselves, people (particularly men) have egos. Its those egos that cause us to keep
> re-trying things we didn't make the first time; its those egos that are the reason for the
> razzings and those same egos affected that are by them.
>
> I see ego all the time on the trail - probably more than any other place. I see guys get wigged
> out when a stranger passes them (and killing themselves to get out ahead again); I've seen the
> smugness on their faces they pass me on a climb (not knowing that I've been climbing for the past
> hour and I'm twice their age).
>
> I see it most from the riders who haven't been at it as many years, and haven't yet learned
> humility. And of course, I see it more with younger guys; once we pass 40, we realize (either
> through our own bad fortune or that of our riding buds) that a bad slow-speed fall could mean not
> riding for the rest of the season, and no one obstacle is worth that. There are some obstacles
> that I'll walk simply because I want to keep riding.
>

So you're saying this is a guy thing, and if I only had a penis I'd understand? Hmmm... If
Kathleen Had A Penis....

The scene opens with flashing ambulance lights and a crew of EMTs making their way down a
rock-strewn hillside, following the trail of blood and bicycle parts. The EMT carrying the
boltcutters begins clipping away the enormous tangle of blackberry canes in an effort
extricate me. The others call out to me. "Missus H? Missus H, can you hear me?" Me, muffled:
"I hear you! I seem to be having a bit of a problem. Help! I'm stuck!" EMT with the bolt
cutter finally reaches me. "Compound fractures, multiple laceration, possible spinal
injuries, and... and... how the hell did THAT happen? I've never seen a fall, even a really
bad one, result in a full cranio-rectal inversion!" Me, still muffled: "Oh, that's not from
the fall. That happened before. See, I was just riding along and this guy rode past me, and
he gave me this *look* just before he passed me. I remember thinking, "Hey, I can't let him
get away with that! And then SCHLOOP! - all the sudden I had my head up my ass. I still
almost caught him on the climb. Right before I fell down the boulder-infested hillside into
the blackberry brambles." EMT on the radio: "We're on our way in. You'll need to have a
couple of units of blood ready to go, let ortho know we're coming, and oh yeah, call in a
psych consult and a proctologist."

Kathleen
 
B

Bomba

Guest
B. Sanders wrote:

>>>If that's the way things truly are then I agree, but I think it may well be different and our
>>>friend here has gossamer-like skin.
>>
>
> Meaning what, exactly?

Gossamer = delicate / thin.

>>>Firstly, if they're your mates, then you should realise that they're going to give you stick if
>>>you don't ride stuff. Friends often have a better idea of your strengths anyway, and banter
>>>amongst friends is par for the course. Friends egging on each other is a very good way of
>>>progressing too, and people are often surprised by their own abilities.
>>
>
> I agree. Respectful banter can be good. Teaching skills to your friends is even better (much
> better). Maybe if I was 19 instead of 41, I'd have more tolerance for that kind of pushiness.
> Maybe I'd have more of an invincibility syndrome that would allow me to "go for it." Things change
> as you age. (Anybody here over 30?)

Most here are over 30, I believe. Although I don't fall in to that particular demographic...

>>> Quite frankly, having someone of a similar ability who complained that "it's too hard" every
>>> time we got to a technical bit of trail would get right on my tits.
>>
>
> Ok, fair enough. Why do you ride with other people if they get on your nerves?

I don't. Read the dependency again - "would". The implication is that this situation would get on my
nerves, if it were to happen. Actually, I tend to ride pretty much solo, although that's more an
indictment of my current circumstances than a positive decision...

>>>I think it's a good idea that people are aware of their limits, but what about people who don't
>>>even get close to their limits and then complain about their friends encouraging them?
>>
>
> What about them? They like companionship; but don't like to be pushed. Is that wrong? It's
> difficult to find male friends who aren't pushy and competitive, often to recklessness. That's
> exactly what I'm trying to say.

And my point is, is it actually recklessness, or are you just a wuss who complains a lot?

The problem is, that we're only ever going to hear one side of this story, so it will be difficult
for us to judge whether you've just got stupid friends or whether you're just being melodramatic.
The reason I've gone with my view is that I don't know of any mountain bikers who would
intentionally push their friend in to obvious danger.

As I said at the start - if you're friends really are like that, then I agree with Stephen and you
should "drop 'em". However, if you're just wussing out of stuff that you should be riding, then you
should expect to get some stick.

--
C.m-b FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/ambfaq.htm

D.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm
 
C

Craig Brossman

Guest
"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Stephen Baker wrote:
>
> >>The male riders I know are all about showing off and being hardcore. They love to brag about how
> >>extreme they are, and haven't a
shred
> >>of respect for anybody who shys away from the most difficult trails.
> >
> >
> > That sounds like a dictionary definition of "A$$hole". The ones that
make the
> > most noise are prob-babbly the biggest Barneys of the bunch. Drop 'em, do what you want to do,
> > and don't look back.
>
> If that's the way things truly are then I agree, but I think it may well be different and our
> friend here has gossamer-like skin.
>
> Firstly, if they're your mates, then you should realise that they're going to give you stick if
> you don't ride stuff. Friends often have a better idea of your strengths anyway, and banter
> amongst friends is par for the course. Friends egging on each other is a very good way of
> progressing too, and people are often surprised by their own abilities. Quite frankly, having
> someone of a similar ability who complained that "it's too hard" every time we got to a technical
> bit of trail would get right on my tits.
>
> I think it's a good idea that people are aware of their limits, but what about people who don't
> even get close to their limits and then complain about their friends encouraging them?
>
> --
> a.m-b FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/ambfaq.htm
>
> a.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm
>
I think bomba is right, don't generalize this issue. There are folks I ride with who I would never
push to do something they are not comfortable with, others which I'll push and will push me right
back. With one particular buddy, I can push as hard as possible, and if he really wants to try
something he will. If he doesn't, my pushing has no affect. I think the bottom line is different
motivators work for different people, perhaps your current set of riding partners need to realize
that and try different motivational tricks ... who is that motivational speaker again, Tony
something?
--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
"Craig Brossman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I think bomba is right, don't generalize this issue. There are folks I ride with who I would never
>push to do something they are not comfortable with, others which I'll push and will push me right
>back. With one particular buddy, I can push as hard as possible, and if he really wants to try
>something he will. If he doesn't, my pushing has no affect. I think the bottom line is different
>motivators work for different people, perhaps your current set of riding partners need to realize
>that and try different motivational tricks ... who is that motivational speaker again, Tony
>something?

Tony Robbins (IIRC).

I happened to catch part of an episode of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' (pretty funny stuff sometimes),
where there was a hideous demon boss rallying the troops. One of his underlings got carried away and
said "... you'd BE Tony Robbins if he was a big ugly Frankenstein-looking freak... (awe) you ARE
Tony Robbins!"

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
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