C
Small front wheel, reversed fork, must be for motor-pacing
- Thread starter [email protected]
- Start date
M
Marcin J.
Guest
Is this the first full suspension bike ever? Anyway it's older than
http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/03/the_first_full_.html
--
Cheers
marcin
http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/03/the_first_full_.html
--
Cheers
marcin
K
Kinky Cowboy
Guest
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:45:00 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>http://www.google.com/patents?id=apBaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=406445&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
>
I think this patent application comes from somebody who knew nothing
of counter-steering
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
>http://www.google.com/patents?id=apBaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=406445&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
>
I think this patent application comes from somebody who knew nothing
of counter-steering
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
C
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:15:17 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:45:00 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>http://www.google.com/patents?id=apBaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=406445&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
>>
>
>I think this patent application comes from somebody who knew nothing
>of counter-steering
>
>Kinky Cowboy*
Dear Kinky,
I'm so used to seeing remote-steering and, er, unusual designs in old
patents that what really caught my eye was the dainty depiction of the
crank arm.
Judging by the inch-pitch teeth on the chain-ring, those are roughly
76 mm cranks.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:45:00 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>http://www.google.com/patents?id=apBaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=406445&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
>>
>
>I think this patent application comes from somebody who knew nothing
>of counter-steering
>
>Kinky Cowboy*
Dear Kinky,
I'm so used to seeing remote-steering and, er, unusual designs in old
patents that what really caught my eye was the dainty depiction of the
crank arm.
Judging by the inch-pitch teeth on the chain-ring, those are roughly
76 mm cranks.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
C
On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:54:52 +0100, "Marcin J." <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Is this the first full suspension bike ever? Anyway it's older than
>http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/03/the_first_full_.html
Dear Marcin,
The question of "first" can be tricky.
First to be imagined?
I wouldn't be surprised if the bike in my link existed only in the
inventor's fevered imagination. That looks like a 75 mm crank, which
is not exactly practical.
First to be built, even as a commercial failure?
Here's the first safety bicycle, the 1879 Lawson:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10466605&wwwflag=2&imagepos=39
Commercially, it was a flop.
So nephew John Starley's Rover gets the credit a few years later
(1884/5)as the first _successful_ safety bicycle:
http://tinyurl.com/2mct4m
Anyway, some early suspension . . .
Rear suspension, 1885 Whippet safety, same year as Rover:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10217772&wwwflag=2&imagepos=112
A better view of the same model, ~1887, in Pryor Dodge's "Bicycle," a
Whippet spring-frame dwarf safety Linley & Biggs roadster with rear
suspension:
http://i25.tinypic.com/vn1her.jpg
A Victor front-suspension patent application, filed in 1886--page down
because the fork is more complicated than the first drawing suggests:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=gTFKAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=398533&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
Ad for the 1888 improved Victor front suspension, the famous
half-heart spring:
http://i32.tinypic.com/2q07mfs.jpg
Full-suspension 1889 production bicycle, the Don No. 2 of 1889:
http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/Transport/bicycles/Don.gif
"The Don Spring-Frame No.2 Dwarf Safety Roadster. We have here a
practicable spring frame without complication in design or working. On
the top of the rear forks there is a double link, connecting them with
the top of the seat pillar, which receives the saddle-pin. The lower
forks are horizontal, and are taken forward beyond the bracket; and
between the end and lower frame tube there is a strong coil spring.
The bracket, where the seat-pillar and front tube unite, is hinged, to
permit of a downward motion which is checked by the action of the
spring. This produces a very easy motion for the rider, and, so to
speak, smoothes the road, reducing concussion and vibration to a low
point. The front forks are double, and not continuous. The straight
ones run to within 3in. of the axle, and are connected by a spring
with the pilot wheel forks, to which they are pivoted in the centre;
this also helps to take the strain off the forks when the brake is
applied. The machine is a very good one, and with balls all parts,
etc., the price is £18."
http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/Transport/bicycles/Devey.htm
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
wrote:
>Is this the first full suspension bike ever? Anyway it's older than
>http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/03/the_first_full_.html
Dear Marcin,
The question of "first" can be tricky.
First to be imagined?
I wouldn't be surprised if the bike in my link existed only in the
inventor's fevered imagination. That looks like a 75 mm crank, which
is not exactly practical.
First to be built, even as a commercial failure?
Here's the first safety bicycle, the 1879 Lawson:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10466605&wwwflag=2&imagepos=39
Commercially, it was a flop.
So nephew John Starley's Rover gets the credit a few years later
(1884/5)as the first _successful_ safety bicycle:
http://tinyurl.com/2mct4m
Anyway, some early suspension . . .
Rear suspension, 1885 Whippet safety, same year as Rover:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10217772&wwwflag=2&imagepos=112
A better view of the same model, ~1887, in Pryor Dodge's "Bicycle," a
Whippet spring-frame dwarf safety Linley & Biggs roadster with rear
suspension:
http://i25.tinypic.com/vn1her.jpg
A Victor front-suspension patent application, filed in 1886--page down
because the fork is more complicated than the first drawing suggests:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=gTFKAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=398533&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
Ad for the 1888 improved Victor front suspension, the famous
half-heart spring:
http://i32.tinypic.com/2q07mfs.jpg
Full-suspension 1889 production bicycle, the Don No. 2 of 1889:
http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/Transport/bicycles/Don.gif
"The Don Spring-Frame No.2 Dwarf Safety Roadster. We have here a
practicable spring frame without complication in design or working. On
the top of the rear forks there is a double link, connecting them with
the top of the seat pillar, which receives the saddle-pin. The lower
forks are horizontal, and are taken forward beyond the bracket; and
between the end and lower frame tube there is a strong coil spring.
The bracket, where the seat-pillar and front tube unite, is hinged, to
permit of a downward motion which is checked by the action of the
spring. This produces a very easy motion for the rider, and, so to
speak, smoothes the road, reducing concussion and vibration to a low
point. The front forks are double, and not continuous. The straight
ones run to within 3in. of the axle, and are connected by a spring
with the pilot wheel forks, to which they are pivoted in the centre;
this also helps to take the strain off the forks when the brake is
applied. The machine is a very good one, and with balls all parts,
etc., the price is £18."
http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/Transport/bicycles/Devey.htm
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
M
Marcin J.
Guest
Thanks for the reply. This is what I was counting on.
Uzytkownik wrote:
> I wouldn't be surprised if the bike in my link existed only in the
> inventor's fevered imagination. That looks like a 75 mm crank, which
> is not exactly practical.
The first thing I've noticed was compression. This suspension is totally
compressed (bottomed) like it was pictured with heavy rider in the saddle.
Even modern xc full-suspension bikes suffer from low BB (small clearance)
but if you put "standard" length crank into this one it will plow field
nicely. The same about chain ring - it seems to be smaller than usual. Thus
maybe it wasn't a mistake just a set-up suggestion? Well exaggerated one.
BTW compare these cranks:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=uu1wAAAAEBAJ
> So nephew John Starley's Rover gets the credit a few years later
> (1884/5)as the first _successful_ safety bicycle:
> http://tinyurl.com/2mct4m
I'm familiar with the concept of safety bicycle. Polish word "rower"
(pronounced "rover") means bicycle.
> Anyway, some early suspension . . .
>
> Rear suspension, 1885 Whippet safety, same year as Rover:
>
> http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10217772&wwwflag=2&imagepos=112
>
> A better view of the same model, ~1887, in Pryor Dodge's "Bicycle," a
> Whippet spring-frame dwarf safety Linley & Biggs roadster with rear
> suspension:
> http://i25.tinypic.com/vn1her.jpg
In case of this velocipede we should redefine the term "full suspension".
Naming it rear suspended bike is a bit unfair in my opinion. Here is the
patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=FvBgAAAAEBAJ
Notice that it has been patented in England September 8 _1885_. It takes the
lead. However I'm unable to find the original patent.
> A Victor front-suspension patent application, filed in 1886--page down
> because the fork is more complicated than the first drawing suggests:
>
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=gTFKAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=398533&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
Primitive - no telescoping or pivoting parts. It seems to be laterally stiff
though.
> Ad for the 1888 improved Victor front suspension, the famous
> half-heart spring:
> http://i32.tinypic.com/2q07mfs.jpg
+ some rear suspension as well.
> Full-suspension 1889 production bicycle, the Don No. 2 of 1889:
>
> http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/Transport/bicycles/Don.gif
I can't find the patent. However I've found Don. Brazier as a witness in
http://www.google.com/patents?id=TsxWAAAAEBAJ
And now the dessert:
fully (almost) suspended fourwheeler
http://www.google.com/patents?id=_upWAAAAEBAJ
and my favorite although (probably) not suspended - a new kind of velocipede
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB190202557&F=0
or whatever it is.
I haven't been old bikes lover - rather a suspension geek. Now I see that
suspension is as old as bicycle. My explanation is that they needed it more
in 19th century that we need it today...
It would be nice to gather all this knowledge in one place to compare side
by side these very first ideas with highly engineered modern designs. Do you
(anyone) know if it is legal to use patent drawings for non-commercial web
site?
--
Cheers
marcin
Uzytkownik wrote:
> I wouldn't be surprised if the bike in my link existed only in the
> inventor's fevered imagination. That looks like a 75 mm crank, which
> is not exactly practical.
The first thing I've noticed was compression. This suspension is totally
compressed (bottomed) like it was pictured with heavy rider in the saddle.
Even modern xc full-suspension bikes suffer from low BB (small clearance)
but if you put "standard" length crank into this one it will plow field
nicely. The same about chain ring - it seems to be smaller than usual. Thus
maybe it wasn't a mistake just a set-up suggestion? Well exaggerated one.
BTW compare these cranks:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=uu1wAAAAEBAJ
> So nephew John Starley's Rover gets the credit a few years later
> (1884/5)as the first _successful_ safety bicycle:
> http://tinyurl.com/2mct4m
I'm familiar with the concept of safety bicycle. Polish word "rower"
(pronounced "rover") means bicycle.
> Anyway, some early suspension . . .
>
> Rear suspension, 1885 Whippet safety, same year as Rover:
>
> http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10217772&wwwflag=2&imagepos=112
>
> A better view of the same model, ~1887, in Pryor Dodge's "Bicycle," a
> Whippet spring-frame dwarf safety Linley & Biggs roadster with rear
> suspension:
> http://i25.tinypic.com/vn1her.jpg
In case of this velocipede we should redefine the term "full suspension".
Naming it rear suspended bike is a bit unfair in my opinion. Here is the
patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=FvBgAAAAEBAJ
Notice that it has been patented in England September 8 _1885_. It takes the
lead. However I'm unable to find the original patent.
> A Victor front-suspension patent application, filed in 1886--page down
> because the fork is more complicated than the first drawing suggests:
>
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=gTFKAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=398533&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
Primitive - no telescoping or pivoting parts. It seems to be laterally stiff
though.
> Ad for the 1888 improved Victor front suspension, the famous
> half-heart spring:
> http://i32.tinypic.com/2q07mfs.jpg
+ some rear suspension as well.
> Full-suspension 1889 production bicycle, the Don No. 2 of 1889:
>
> http://www.localhistory.scit.wlv.ac.uk/Museum/Transport/bicycles/Don.gif
I can't find the patent. However I've found Don. Brazier as a witness in
http://www.google.com/patents?id=TsxWAAAAEBAJ
And now the dessert:
fully (almost) suspended fourwheeler
http://www.google.com/patents?id=_upWAAAAEBAJ
and my favorite although (probably) not suspended - a new kind of velocipede
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB190202557&F=0
or whatever it is.
I haven't been old bikes lover - rather a suspension geek. Now I see that
suspension is as old as bicycle. My explanation is that they needed it more
in 19th century that we need it today...
It would be nice to gather all this knowledge in one place to compare side
by side these very first ideas with highly engineered modern designs. Do you
(anyone) know if it is legal to use patent drawings for non-commercial web
site?
--
Cheers
marcin
R
Robert Perkins
Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=apBaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=406445&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
I, no kidding, just remembered a dream I had last night when I read this
.. The neighbor kids came riding up on bikes that had reverse rake
forks that then had a cantilevered front wheel out in front.
This is bizarre if I am channeling Usenet.
Rob
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=apBaAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=406445&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
I, no kidding, just remembered a dream I had last night when I read this
.. The neighbor kids came riding up on bikes that had reverse rake
forks that then had a cantilevered front wheel out in front.
This is bizarre if I am channeling Usenet.
Rob
C
On Feb 19, 2:54 am, "Marcin J." <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is this the first fullsuspensionbike ever? Anyway it's older thanhttp://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/03/the_first_...
>
> --
> Cheers
> marcin
Dear Marcin,
Full-suspension can be pushed back to 1869 with the Buell velocipede:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=AAFFAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=90723&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
http://i30.tinypic.com/2pttetj.jpg
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
> Is this the first fullsuspensionbike ever? Anyway it's older thanhttp://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2005/03/the_first_...
>
> --
> Cheers
> marcin
Dear Marcin,
Full-suspension can be pushed back to 1869 with the Buell velocipede:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=AAFFAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=90723&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
http://i30.tinypic.com/2pttetj.jpg
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
M
Marcin J.
Guest
Uzytkownik wrote:
> Dear Marcin,
>
> Full-suspension can be pushed back to 1869 with the Buell velocipede:
>
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=AAFFAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=90723&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
>
> http://i30.tinypic.com/2pttetj.jpg
Thanks Carl. It's a great picture. This bike is very close to the original
Lallement design
http://www.google.com/patents?id=emkAAAAAEBAJ
Which is not strange considering they both lived in New Heaven CT in the
same time (186x).
Even if there is an earlier full-suspended bike it can't be much older.
--
Cheers
marcin
> Dear Marcin,
>
> Full-suspension can be pushed back to 1869 with the Buell velocipede:
>
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=AAFFAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=90723&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1
>
> http://i30.tinypic.com/2pttetj.jpg
Thanks Carl. It's a great picture. This bike is very close to the original
Lallement design
http://www.google.com/patents?id=emkAAAAAEBAJ
Which is not strange considering they both lived in New Heaven CT in the
same time (186x).
Even if there is an earlier full-suspended bike it can't be much older.
--
Cheers
marcin
