So how do you feel now?

"MattB" <[email hidden]> had this to say
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Shaun Rimmer wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

So, because someone is from the same country as some
terrorists, it makes them a terrorist too? Is it right to
condemn terrorists with the one hand, then behave just as
badly with the other? Think man, THINK.

I'm just glad that "Critic" and like-minded people seem to
be in the minority. Now what country was that McVeigh
fellow from again? We should teach those people a lesson!

Matt

Here Hear!!

[email hidden] (Corvus Corvax) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip political [censored]>

I feel like riding my bike.

JD

[email hidden] (JD) had this to say
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Corvus Corvax) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip political [censored]>

I feel like riding my bike.

JD

here, hear (again)

But not today, off to the grind...

Dave W said:

[email hidden] (JD) had this to say
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Corvus Corvax) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
<snip political [censored]>

I feel like riding my bike.

JD

here, hear (again)

But not today, off to the grind...

Dude, you're freaking me out. Stop being so agreeable!

Matt

"MattB" <[email hidden]> had this to say news:2g1ppgF3iuliU1@uni-
berlin.de

Quoted message said:

Dave W said:

[email hidden] (JD) had this to say
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Corvus Corvax) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>.-
.. <snip political [censored]>

I feel like riding my bike.

JD

here, hear (again)

But not today, off to the grind...

Dude, you're freaking me out. Stop being so agreeable!

Matt

it's o.k Matt, Rod Serling isn't returning from the dead,
and isn't back on prime time 🙂

Dave( "thers a signpost up ahead"😉

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I feel like riding my bike.

We'll be doing that after work today.

- CA-G

Can-Am Girls Kick Ass!

"Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Critic said:

"BB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2g0ej3F33jo1U1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 07 May 2004 02:37:49 GMT, Critic wrote:

> Is there some sort of equivalence here? 3000 dead
> Americans vs. some [censored] with a pixilated unit? You
> are a [censored].

We've killed over three times that many Muslim
civilians since then. Is that enough "equivalence" for
you to feel that torture and humiliation is wrong?

Torture? Ask Saddam about torture. Throwing living
people into shredders is torture.

They've gone very quiet about the people shredder now.
Nobody's found one, or any evidence for one. There was an
article in the Spectator on it a

while

Quoted message said:

ago.

You are correct. Saddam gave every one who visitied his
prisons a fluffy kitty and mug of cocoa.

Quoted message said:

"BB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Critic said:

Is there some sort of equivalence here? 3000 dead
Americans vs. some [censored] with a pixilated unit? You
are a [censored].

We've killed over three times that many Muslim civilians
since then. Is that enough "equivalence" for you to feel
that torture and humiliation is wrong?

Torture? Ask Saddam about torture.

I see, so a little torture is OK, but a lot is not?
Funny, I always thought torture was wrong, no matter WHO
did it. Wait, no - I get it now - if the torture has the
right outcome, *then* it's OK! Really, do you have any
morals at all?

Quoted message said:

Throwing living people into shredders is torture.

Never happened in Iraq - propaganda spread by those who have
something to gain by continued U.S. occupation.

Quoted message said:

Taking nude photos is closer to spring break in Ft
Lauderdale, so put away your liberal outrage.

Both Muslim and Christian conservatives find nude photos
morally repugnant. If it were done to our soldiers in an
Iraqi camp, you'd be plenty [censored].

Quoted message said:

As to your definition of civilians, I would put it to you
that there is a subtle difference between an office worker
forced to jump 90 stories to his death and a cowardly
Baathist who takes pot shots at American soldiers and then
runs to hide in his mosque.

So, all the collateral damage done to old women and young
kids was deserved? They all have guns, so it's OK to kill
them all? Sounds remarkably like some European leaders in
the middle of the last century.

Quoted message said:

Let us be very clear that if we chose, we could kill every
man, woman and child in Iraq in a week, so why do you
suppose that we, evil incarnate, haven chosen not to?

Because it's wrong? But morality isn't a matter of degree.
Something is moral, or it is not. It's not increasingly
immoral the more immoral things you do. If you kill one
civilian on purpose, that's murder. And immoral. Rape,
torture, humiliation - it's all WRONG. No matter who does
it, and no matter how much, or how little.

We signed the Geneva Convention, and we have a duty to live
up to it. All of us, against all enemies. Not just the
white ones.
--
Jonesy

(Jonesy) said:

I'm getting the idea that conservatives in general are
going to get us in more hot water than we can take.

I think you should use the past tense. The damage has been
done: the war in Iraq, the deficit, the environment, etc.,
for all of which your children and your children's children
will pay after you are dead. --dt

Critic said:

As to your definition of civilians, I would put it to you
that there is a subtle difference between an office
worker forced to jump 90 stories to his death and a
cowardly Baathist who takes pot shots at American
soldiers and then runs to hide in his mosque.

OK, I'll tell you my definition of civilians - "non-
combatants". Anyone involved in resisting the invasion and
occupation aren't listed as such. They're all estimates, of
course, but even using the low end of the estimates yields a
death toll of several thousand more than the WTC tragedy.

If you're going to use civilian deaths to rationalize
unrelated wrongdoings, I just thought you should have the
right numbers.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail
address, at least)

RE/

Quoted message said:

How do you think that a photograph of a (female!) U.S.
soldier holding a naked Iraqi prisoner by a dog collar is
going to play in the Mulsim world?

I blame Colin Powell's wife for the whole mess. If she
hadn't told him not to run for prez, he'd be same, Shinseki
would still be a valued source of expertise, and we wouldn't
be in this mess.

Seriously, though, my view is that the people who
perpetrated the acts in those pix are all around us all of
the time. You and I interact with some of them every day.
Sort of evenly-distributed thoughout society, if you will.
Most of them don't even know who they are because they've
never been in a situation where they can blossom.

It's the leadership's responsibility to be aware of that
obvious fact and to structure situations so those people
cannot fulfill their special potential.

Our leadership failed - it goes all the up to the general
officers in charge. The responsibility rests squarely on
them. They knew this stuff was going on way before the pix
came out. My impression from listening to Rumsfeld's
testimony is that, to them, the abuse of prisoners was never
a problem - only the release of the pix. They're all in it
right up to their necks.

Did anybody see the documentary on the guy from Canada who
became an inside spy for the CIA at Guantanimo? He *knew* he
could get out and still he almost committed suicide. Those
people were handcuffed with bags over their heads and forced
to lay face-down for 24 hours on a concrete floor...*then*
they got loaded into the transport planes for the 15-hour
flight to G-mo...still handcuffed. According to the show,
the guy even passed a lie-detector test on his story. His
take was that maybe 10% of the people there were actual
combatants. The other 90% just got turned in for the $5,000
per head bounty.

Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz thought they could do this war on the
cheap and they've dragged our country down into the toilet
trying to do so....and, as far as I can see, they still
don't get it.
--
PeteCresswell

"MeatballTurbo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

You are correct, and I'll be casting my vote for George
W. Bush,

greatest

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

American president EVER!!!

Can he even spell presedent?

Can you?

Quoted message said:

The poser formerly known as Skodapilot.

I would change the nym too.

Critic said:

Saddam had plenty of experience!

Yeah. And who helped him get into power in the first place?
You have no idea of what you are talking about and just
blindly hate, which means that you are no better than those
that you claim to hate. Either that or you are a stupid
troll. Either way, you deserve no more attention.
--
Westie (Replace 'invalid' with 'yahoo' when replying.)

Jonesy said:

Quoted message said:

Torture? Ask Saddam about torture.

I see, so a little torture is OK, but a lot is not?
Funny, I always thought torture was wrong, no matter WHO
did it. Wait, no - I get it now - if the torture has the
right outcome, *then* it's OK! Really, do you have any
morals at all?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let us be very clear that if we chose, we could kill
every man, woman and child in Iraq in a week, so why do
you suppose that we, evil incarnate, haven chosen not to?

Because it's wrong? But morality isn't a matter of degree.
Something is moral, or it is not. It's not increasingly
immoral the more immoral things you do. If you kill one
civilian on purpose, that's murder. And immoral. Rape,
torture, humiliation - it's all WRONG. No matter who does
it, and no matter how much, or how little.

We signed the Geneva Convention, and we have a duty to
live up to it. All of us, against all enemies. Not just
the white ones.

Maybe I'm wrong, but once the Weapons of Mass Destruction
didn't appear as hoped, one of the supporting reasons given
for the invasion was that Saddam was a bad man and the
population deserved to be freed from inhumane treatment, for
example, torture.

Hardly matters to the person being tortured who is doing it.
So why do you, Critic, think that the treatment is
justified? The horror of the prisioner abuse is that it is
exactly one of the things that the US was trying to prevent
by going to war in the first place.

And if you do kill every man, woman and child, how does that
make you better than Saddam? Atleast he didn't kill them all
in a week.
--
Westie (Replace 'invalid' with 'yahoo' when replying.)

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2g0uj2F39g4gU1@uni-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, you know I'm not an American, CC, but I'm right

with you on this,

Quoted message said:

truly. I strongly and sincerely hope the situation
improves after this

next election.

Quoted message said:

Cheers, Shaun aRe

I am an American and a VFW. I agree with you both. I won't
vote for Bush that is for sure.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 02:54:56 GMT, "Critic"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> How do you think that a photograph of a (female!)
> U.S. soldier holding a naked Iraqi prisoner by a dog
> collar is going to play in the Mulsim world?
>
> _I_ feel humiliated. The memory of every single life
> lost in my beautiful city has been dragged through
> the mud along with that poor man in the photo. I am
> without words.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is there some sort of equivalence here? 3000 dead
Americans vs. some [censored] with a pixilated unit? You
are a [censored].

Anti-American scumbag response also noted. Please be
informed that the Soviet Union no longer exists, comrade.
You do not need to keep up the party line.

btinternet.comliberty.jpgOpen ↗

Pete

"Pete Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 07 May 2004 02:54:56 GMT, "Critic"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > How do you think that a photograph of a (female!)
> > U.S. soldier

holding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > a naked Iraqi prisoner by a dog collar is going to
> > play in the

Mulsim

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > world?
> >
> > _I_ feel humiliated. The memory of every single
> > life lost in my beautiful city has been dragged
> > through the mud along with that

poor

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > man in the photo. I am without words.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Is there some sort of equivalence here? 3000 dead
> Americans vs. some [censored] with a pixilated unit? You
> are a [censored].

Anti-American scumbag response also noted. Please be
informed that the Soviet Union no longer exists, comrade.
You do not need to keep up the party line.

btinternet.comliberty.jpgOpen ↗

Pete

Yes, yes, very nice. In the very best Pravda tradition.

Quoted message said:

"Corvus Corvax" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When I was in Europe a few weeks ago, I spoke with a
friend of mine from Madrid. His wife had been a few
minutes late for her train, and had therefore avoided
being killed in the bombing. I apologized to him. I told
him I was sorry for our country's shameful response to
the tragedy in Spain, to call them cowards after we
received the sympathy of the world on 9/11.

Now.

How do you think that a photograph of a (female!) U.S.
soldier holding a naked Iraqi prisoner by a dog collar
is going to play in the Mulsim world?

_I_ feel humiliated. The memory of every single life
lost in my beautiful city has been dragged through the
mud along with that poor man in the photo. I am without
words.

In six months, you get to vote. That is all.

CC

Is there some sort of equivalence here? 3000 dead
Americans vs. some [censored] with a pixilated unit? You are
a [censored].

You do know it was Al Qaeda who organized the 9/11
attacks, right? Or have you been appropriately brainwashed
by Big Brother?

Greg Hanging out with Frank "Pancho" Sampedro.

G.T. wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

You do know it was Al Qaeda who organized the 9/11
attacks, right? Or have you been appropriately brainwashed
by Big Brother?

Greg Hanging out with Frank "Pancho" Sampedro.

That reminds me of when Saddam was captured a girl I know
said "They got Bin Laden!". I was pretty amazed by that and
then looked up the news and saw it was really Saddam. When I
corrected her she said "Well, same diference.". So it
definitely worked on her. I hope most people aren't so weak-
minded that they would believe they are the same, basically
the same, or even had any connection before we encouraged
them to due to a common enemy.

Matt

MattB said:

That reminds me of when Saddam was captured a girl I know
said "They got Bin Laden!". I was pretty amazed by that and
then looked up the news and saw it was really Saddam. When
I corrected her she said "Well, same diference.". So it
definitely worked on her.

What color blonde hair did she have? ;-) --dt