So what drugs did BAsso get a hold of to improve so well?

[mises]

The advantage richer teams have is they have 3,4, or 5 really good riders instead of just one. Dope has nothing to do with it. Prices of illicit EPO and other PEDs are low enough that virtually anyone who wants to use them can afford the investment.

These guys that are doping have been doing so since they were juniors and amateurs (just like in US high schools - maybe they should do similar raids of US HS football teams and see what happens). If Basso is doping he's been doing it his whole career. These guys are just on another planet talent wise and dope is really only a comparatively minor factor. Basso's time up the Stelvio from Prato when he was 10 years old was probably better than what most of the people on this board could do.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

Is that Henry Rollins in your avatar?

Why Yes It IS! (The photo is from where he poped himself in the head during a show in Santos, Brazil.)

http://21361.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=2&Product_Code=2082&Category_Code=Posters

L

 

[JohnO]

Bitter grapes? It's more the other way around, with many of the people pouring out doping vitriol regarding LA being equally quick to leap to Basso's defence in the face of exactly the same hard evidence - or lack of. Personally, I like Ivan, and hope that his sterling performance isn't the result of dope. Innocent until tested positive, and so far he's innocent.

So seven years of catcalls really wasn't about doping, it was about an ill mannered Texas redneck whipping cycling's finest. I can live with that. Not saying that LA is a likeable person, just find it amusing that so many cycling fans had to manufacture reasons to hate him. He's an a$$hole - that's reason enough.

As for disappointed Disco fans - we got seven tours in a row. We're anything but disappointed. I look forward to a Tour with no obvious front runner. Personally, I'd put money on Basso, would love to see Jan turn in one more stellar performance, wonder where Vino will turn up, won't take my eye off of Valverde, look forward to Boonen vs McEwen, and hope Floyd surprises everyone. Should be the most interesting Tour in quite some time.

It seems that the majority of this board are Disco fans and there are some sour grapes that they are faultering without a true Grand Tour rider. So lets blame Basso, because he's not American and he has been the next best thing to Armstrong for the past two years.

Screw this, I am going for a ride and I am high as **** on coffee.

Michael

 

[bobke]

Absolutely. If Epo gives you an 8% benefit (approx), then a rider that was 2% better to start with will still be about 2% better if both use Epo and nothing else. And sadly no amount of Epo etc would get me to the Tour.

Dear Dr. Patch,

If an average tour rider without benefit of drugs comes in with a Hematocrit of 41-43 at best, and with EPO he can get his Hematocrit to 49% that would be like what...an increase in O2 carrying capacity of 12-18%.

I dont think the study has been done but power output at threshold with a Hct of 41 vs. power outpur at threshold at 48-49% is what we are taliking about, and I think the difference would be greater that 8%.

To pick a round number of 400 watts at threshold and 8% difference would be up to 432 watts. a big jump, but a 15% difference would be like 460 watts.

Where did you get your number?

 

[patch70]

Dear Dr. Patch,

If an average tour rider without benefit of drugs comes in with a Hematocrit of 41-43 at best, and with EPO he can get his Hematocrit to 49% that would be like what...an increase in O2 carrying capacity of 12-18%.

I dont think the study has been done but power output at threshold with a Hct of 41 vs. power outpur at threshold at 48-49% is what we are taliking about, and I think the difference would be greater that 8%.

To pick a round number of 400 watts at threshold and 8% difference would be up to 432 watts. a big jump, but a 15% difference would be like 460 watts.

Where did you get your number?

That is the number that the sports physiologists throw around.
I would assume that not everyone gets an 8% benefit but that this is the average. If your natural haematocrit is high, probably the benefit is less.
In addition, a 5% rise in hct will not mean a 5% rise in wattage. And it will be hard to quantify what % the Epo is doing if all Dr Fuentes' clients are using Epo, anabolic steroids, growth hormone & other stuff!

 

[janiejones]

Wondering what the thoughts are out there? Using the logic from this site he has to be on something to improve like he has and to be in the front of the peleton?

Eddy, the legend himself, said "you can win the Tour on nothing but water".

 

[azdroptop]

Eddy, the legend himself, said "you can win the Tour on nothing but water".

Didn't he get caught using PED's also?

 

[mitosis]

Dear Dr. Patch,

If an average tour rider without benefit of drugs comes in with a Hematocrit of 41-43 at best, and with EPO he can get his Hematocrit to 49% that would be like what...an increase in O2 carrying capacity of 12-18%.

I dont think the study has been done but power output at threshold with a Hct of 41 vs. power outpur at threshold at 48-49% is what we are taliking about, and I think the difference would be greater that 8%.

To pick a round number of 400 watts at threshold and 8% difference would be up to 432 watts. a big jump, but a 15% difference would be like 460 watts.

Where did you get your number?

It is a bit simplistic to assume there is a linear response to EPO. There are a few (dozen) other factors that affect performance.

 

[patch70]

Eddy, the legend himself, said "you can win the Tour on nothing but water".

I thought it was Jacques Anquetil who said that you can't win the tour on mineral water alone???

 

[Powerful Pete]

I thought it was Jacques Anquetil who said that you can't win the tour on mineral water alone???

He would have champagne and oysters in copious quantities before a TT stage...

 

[janiejones]

I thought it was Jacques Anquetil who said that you can't win the tour on mineral water alone???

I just remember reading something in Cycle Sport Magazine after the 98? Tour, (was that the one with the major drug raids and the riders protesting etc), and there were a list of quotes in there about what various cyclists thought of drugs in sport etc. I'll see if I still have it and check.

 

[wolfix]

I thought it was Jacques Anquetil who said that you can't win the tour on mineral water alone???

Yes..It was was. And to answer another posters question Merckx was convicted 3x in his career. But before we start saying who is a doper and who is not a doper we really should look at the sport of cycling realistically.
First of all I am not fond of the drug culture in cycling .I wish it were different. But I am convinced that doping is not considered cheating among the cyclists themselves. Or the organizers nor the team mangagement. Only the naive fan think's it is cheating.


In the past 50 years there is a great chance every TDF champion was doped. It would be naive to think otherwise. When a cyclist chooses it as a career, doping is part of it. Doping is so ingrained in the sport.
And to those forum readers who are gloating over the possibility of some big names being involved, understand that your champion whoever he is, is a doper also. Never being tested positive has nothing to do with being a doper. There hasn't been a TDF champion testing positive during a race simply because it would be bad buissness for the TDF society. And when the riders have tested positive, and they have in the past 20 years, the TDF gives them an alibi. Always.


The amount of stuff produced by the raids by the civil guard in Spain shows this to be much deeper then just a team. Plus the fact that the civil guard did this without involving the Spanish cycling federation shows the corruption in cycling. The national federations know this is going on, the riders and teams know this is going on , and the UCI knows this is going on.

This is bad for the sport. If the big names goes down it will cast a doubt on all champions. As fans we are naive if we think this will clean the sport. The sport is uncleanable in it's present state.
So as this ugly situation unfolds be careful of what you wish for.

And a note to the LA fans who go around and make the statement that LA was tested more then any other rider and never tested positive..... You look silly making that statement.
And also to the anti-LA fan who say he could not have won the TDF without help, don't be naive. Your champion of the past and your champion of the present couldn't either.

 

[mitosis]

Yes..It was was. And to answer another posters question Merckx was convicted 3x in his career. But before we start saying who is a doper and who is not a doper we really should look at the sport of cycling realistically.
First of all I am not fond of the drug culture in cycling .I wish it were different. But I am convinced that doping is not considered cheating among the cyclists themselves. Or the organizers nor the team mangagement. Only the naive fan think's it is cheating.


In the past 50 years there is a great chance every TDF champion was doped. It would be naive to think otherwise. When a cyclist chooses it as a career, doping is part of it. Doping is so ingrained in the sport.
And to those forum readers who are gloating over the possibility of some big names being involved, understand that your champion whoever he is, is a doper also. Never being tested positive has nothing to do with being a doper. There hasn't been a TDF champion testing positive during a race simply because it would be bad buissness for the TDF society. And when the riders have tested positive, and they have in the past 20 years, the TDF gives them an alibi. Always.


The amount of stuff produced by the raids by the civil guard in Spain shows this to be much deeper then just a team. Plus the fact that the civil guard did this without involving the Spanish cycling federation shows the corruption in cycling. The national federations know this is going on, the riders and teams know this is going on , and the UCI knows this is going on.

This is bad for the sport. If the big names goes down it will cast a doubt on all champions. As fans we are naive if we think this will clean the sport. The sport is uncleanable in it's present state.
So as this ugly situation unfolds be careful of what you wish for.

And a note to the LA fans who go around and make the statement that LA was tested more then any other rider and never tested positive..... You look silly making that statement.
And also to the anti-LA fan who say he could not have won the TDF without help, don't be naive. Your champion of the past and your champion of the present couldn't either.

The cynic in me agrees with most of what you are saying.

I do believe that there are many successful young riders who do believe that doping is cheating and who don't plan to dope when they reach the top.

Their acceptance of it as legitimate occurs when they find that to compete with the best they must dope. As several other posters have mentioned - if all the top riders are doping you are certainly not cheating them if you take drugs.

 

[lwedge]

As several other posters have mentioned - if all the top riders are doping you are certainly not cheating them if you take drugs.

Sad but true. This is probably the mentality of most riders and team DS as well.

lw

 

[Flyer]

ppouy

 

[Flyer]

ree

 

[Flyer]

Guilt by association sucks. Let's give Basso the benefit of the doubt until it is proven otherwise.

jhhh

 

[Flyer]

It's the Farfalle pasta, Grana Padano cheese and Sangiovese wine.

Try it some time, you'll climb like Pantani. It's a staple in my house.

lw

yttrr