SO what, with DOPING?

[redLantern]

what does it matter if the riders dope?... does it make the race less exciting?no in fact it makes it more exciting,does it diminish their accomplishments? NO, do you really expect the riders to ride these extremely difficult races in the worlds toughest sport on just WATER and GRANOLA BARS!!! i for one do not think less of "dopers" , at all. im convinced that every one in the peloton needs to "dope" to keep up and be competitive in this grueling sport,i have tremendous respect for each and every rider, regardless if he "dopes" or not. and another thing why do you call the "dopers" liars, liars to whom? the fans? do you think that when they climb a mountain they are thinking about the fans? this is their JOB they do this to make a living.

 

[Doctor.House]

what does it matter if the riders dope?... does it make the race less exciting?no in fact it makes it more exciting,does it diminish their accomplishments? NO, do you really expect the riders to ride these extremely difficult races in the worlds toughest sport on just WATER and GRANOLA BARS!!! i for one do not think less of "dopers" , at all. im convinced that every one in the peloton needs to "dope" to keep up and be competitive in this grueling sport,i have tremendous respect for each and every rider, regardless if he "dopes" or not. and another thing why do you call the "dopers" liars, liars to whom? the fans? do you think that when they climb a mountain they are thinking about the fans? this is their JOB they do this to make a living.

You are kidding right? Why is a drug cheat who lies---not a liar?

Cow blood doping turns bike racing into Nascar. Boring, stupid and tedious.

Cow blood induced power destroys tactics and turns tho event into a display of corporate billboards remote controlled via radio for TV air time.

Why is that more interesting than steroids & amphetamine racing??????

Without fans riders make ZERO money.

 

[redLantern]

You are kidding right? Why is a drug cheat who lies---not a liar?

Cow blood doping turns bike racing into Nascar. Boring, stupid and tedious.

Cow blood induced power destroys tactics and turns tho event into a display of corporate billboards remote controlled via radio for TV air time.

Why is that more interesting than steroids & amphetamine racing??????

Without fans riders make ZERO money.

so the last 50 years has been "boring,stupid and tedious"? really?these people are human, not robots on bicycles.there will always be fans because not everyone thinks the riders are some quasi-maniacal greed machines,...are you a cycling fan or do you work for usada, just curious.

 

[Doctor.House]

so the last 50 years has been "boring,stupid and tedious"? really?these people are human, not robots on bicycles.there will always be fans because not everyone thinks the riders are some quasi-maniacal greed machines,...are you a cycling fan or do you work for usada, just curious.

You have not noticed a change in the stage racing as cow blood entered the game? The Blue Train excited you? Birillo Basso as an alien?

That explains your silly position on contemporary drug cheating.

You must lust after NASCAR.

Watch that Lowe's car go!

Go get em Jimmy Johnson.

Your definition of sports fan is my definition of Michael Vick dog torture.

 

[redLantern]

You have not noticed a change in the stage racing as cow blood entered the game? The Blue Train excited you? Birillo Basso as an alien?

That explains your silly position on contemporary drug cheating.

You must lust after NASCAR.

Watch that Lowe's car go!

Go get em Jimmy Johnson.

Your definition of sports fan is my definition of Michael Vick dog torture.

the blue train?,thats called teamwork.. "doped" or not, i pity you,your life must be miserable, you seem to have real issues , are you an orphan by any chance? let me guess, the pentagon was hit by a missile? well if theres one thing im thankful for its that there arent more like you, or else we would all be living in socialist paradise right about now. btw stop drinking the cow blood.

 

[Doctor.House]

the blue train?,thats called teamwork.. "doped" or not, i pity you,your life must be miserable, you seem to have real issues , are you an orphan by any chance? let me guess, the pentagon was hit by a missile? well if theres one thing im thankful for its that there arent more like you, or else we would all be living in socialist paradise right about now. btw stop drinking the cow blood.

Get in line, take a number: Pity begins at home, with self-pity.

Glad to have you in my fan club. You are not alone.

Many Nike endrosed Michael Vick dog haters are among my doping apologist enemies too. (Lance, Baroid, Marion, Justin, Jason, Tim, Regina, Kelli, Tori)

It must be delightful to hang ceiling posters of doped LIVE WRONG heroes and pretend that cow blood has no effect on solid teamwork or tactics.

Issues? What about living in abject denial 24/7. Is that a health issue?

Issues, tissues and Prozac with a Lithium celing!

 

[redLantern]

It must be delightful to hang ceiling posters of doped LIVE WRONG heroes and pretend that cow blood has no effect on solid teamwork or tactics.

Issues? What about living in abject denial 24/7. Is that a health issue?

Issues, tissues and Prozac with a Lithium celing!

how am i in denial? i said i dont care if they dope.i have respect for them either way.and it does not diminish their accomplishments.and no one can judge them unless they were in the riders shoes.

 

[Doctor.House]

how am i in denial? i said i dont care if they dope.i have respect for them either way.and it does not diminish their accomplishments.and no one can judge them unless they were in the riders shoes.

You mean the para-nursing sneakers, not cleated shoes. Perhaps.

Cow blood IV doping achievements should be rightfully credited to the life scientists, not the riders. Without the protocols and cocktails, no athlete
can hold tempo at the back for very long.

These TDF rider have not the talent, skill nor ability to climb L'Alp DHeuz in 26 minutes w/o anti-anemia trauma care.

Point taken---but please give the credit where credit due. Quit projecting emotion onto billboards unless you enjoyed my Nascar analogy.

 

[bikerboy]

You mean the para-nursing sneakers, not cleated shoes. Perhaps.

Cow blood IV doping achievements should be rightfully credited to the life scientists, not the riders. Without the protocols and cocktails, no athlete
can hold tempo at the back for very long.

These TDF rider have not the talent, skill nor ability to climb L'Alp DHeuz in 26 minutes w/o anti-anemia trauma care.

Point taken---but please give the credit where credit due. Quit projecting emotion onto billboards unless you enjoyed my Nascar analogy.

Nascar is more even now than it was many years ago. Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt SR, Gordon??

Cycling is more even then it ever was before as well

You point is that everyone is so strong it comes to team tactics, not rider individuality.

On a final climb, how many teamates of the GC riders are realisticaly left?
1 or 2 tops, and usually coming back semi popped from a break.

The sport is the same as its always been, they race bikes around France for crying out loud.

Look at Vino's team, he had the whole team to support him up to the final climbs then Kloden, kashenkin to deal with everyone for him. But instead he crashes out at loses all the time required to have a chance in the end.

How many still have a shot, Evans, Valverde, Rasmussen, Contador, Leipheimer. Even Moreu who lost time, and Vino is looking stronger and stronger.

You cant say Evans has a lot of support can you, say compared to Vino. But he's doing pretty well huh?

Last year Landis pulled off one of the most epic breaks ever, controversially from a blood transfusion. His team wasnt exactly CSC or T-Mobile.

You say Nascar is boring, technilogicaly bent towards heavy finances. But dont the best drivers deserve the best teams?

Doping is probably a pandemic. I would like to know, how many people in this forum have actually experienced pro racing???

But can your really positively know how it is until you have seen it?

Cycling is a jumbled set of specialities unique to itself. You cannot say its dry because of doping. Its an aquired taste. Its fun to look at, visually appealing. It appeals to the French populace because of this. It thrives in European glamour. Millions watched it in the UK. And Billions like never before watch it worldwide. In the Most northern, center of America, thousands of miles away from the event, people sit down in a restaraunt and dont watch Barry Bonds break the home run record, they watch the Peleton roll through the foothills of the alps, at the pale exhasperated figure of Bradley Wiggins digging deep into his suitcase of courage to last one more mile with the TV Motos riding a full minute in front of 186 of the best professional cyclists in the world.

Solving doping as I said before, is a matter of catching NBA Players doing street drugs, and ordering them to pay the same price as say, Patrick Sinkewitz.

But its not $80,000--- No its like $$80,000,000

 

[BarryB1124]

Doctor House...I have some questions. I am new to cycling. I read David's Walsh's book From Lance to Landis. I also read Daniel Coyle's book Lance Armstrong's War. I am very much inclined to agree with you about the level of doping in the cycling world. What I am wondering is if you were ever a fan of the sport or if you have become knowledgeable regarding these things strictly from the doping perspective.

I want to enjoy the sport. Unfortunately, no matter how pervasive doping is according to whomever you ask, there certainly has to be agreement that it exists and can have a major influence on the results. I really want to enjoy this sport..but it is hard for me to imagine that I can knowing that riders are cheating. Is it as simple as to say that it all comes down to who dopes the best? Or is that too simplistic?

 

[redLantern]

Doctor House...I have some questions. I am new to cycling. I read David's Walsh's book From Lance to Landis. I also read Daniel Coyle's book Lance Armstrong's War. I am very much inclined to agree with you about the level of doping in the cycling world. What I am wondering is if you were ever a fan of the sport or if you have become knowledgeable regarding these things strictly from the doping perspective.

I want to enjoy the sport. Unfortunately, no matter how pervasive doping is according to whomever you ask, there certainly has to be agreement that it exists and can have a major influence on the results. I really want to enjoy this sport..but it is hard for me to imagine that I can knowing that riders are cheating. Is it as simple as to say that it all comes down to who dopes the best? Or is that too simplistic?

yes that is way too simplistic, look.... doping does not make you a superstar,think about it . how many riders in the tdf "dope"? ..probably all of them.thats 189 riders......now how many have a legitimate chance to win the tour each year? 5 to 10, if not less....doping doesnt make you a winner.....talent does.and you should enjoy the sport, these riders cannot possibly ride the worlds toughest sporting event in the world on just water..people are just going to have to accept that, and enjoy the race, because it is so special.

 

[BarryB1124]

yes that is way too simplistic, look.... doping does not make you a superstar,think about it . how many riders in the tdf "dope"? ..probably all of them.thats 189 riders......now how many have a legitimate chance to win the tour each year? 5 to 10, if not less....doping doesnt make you a winner.....talent does.and you should enjoy the sport, these riders cannot possibly ride the worlds toughest sporting event in the world on just water..people are just going to have to accept that, and enjoy the race, because it is so special.

Do you think that shortening the stages would lessen the drug use in the sport, or would it not matter? I am asking as a person who knows very little about the sport other than what I have picked up in the past few months.

 

[redLantern]

Do you think that shortening the stages would lessen the drug use in the sport, or would it not matter? I am asking as a person who knows very little about the sport other than what I have picked up in the past few months.

some riders have hinted at that as a possible option, but honestly, i think "doping" has always been part of the sport , jacques anquetil(5 time winner of the tour) admitted to doping and this was in the late 50s early 60s....look, either you can accept this or you cant.riders will aways look for a competitive edge and as a fan, i feel that it is none of my business what the riders put in their bodies.im an observer of the sport and i am not in the position to judge any of them because i dont know what it feels like to be them.thats my opinion, but whichever way you choose to see it, cycling is a beautiful sport and it will never be stopped by doping controversies.

 

[Gregers]

Au contraire. Read some of the posts of Ti Man who has more experience of this than most. He will tell you how individuals of lesser ability were able to out-perform their inherently superior and equally hard working peers simply becuse they responded better to the identical drugs that they were taking. Thus, pharmaceutical products were THE determinant as to who won. Do you also want the winner to be the individual who was most willing to risk his life in taking an excess of dangerous PEDs. Don't forget how many athletes have actually died going down this route. At the risk of bringing up this old chestnut again, LA was just another reasonably gifted performer before he started responding to a very effective drug regime. It is clear to all but the most deluded that his great success was down to a combination of his ability, hard work and yes, the drugs he took. The first two factors would have been largely irrelevant without the huge influence of the third. Of course he was not unique, and exactly the same could be said of many others.QUOTE=redLantern]yes that is way too simplistic, look.... doping does not make you a superstar,think about it . how many riders in the tdf "dope"? ..probably all of them.thats 189 riders......now how many have a legitimate chance to win the tour each year? 5 to 10, if not less....doping doesnt make you a winner.....talent does.and you should enjoy the sport, these riders cannot possibly ride the worlds toughest sporting event in the world on just water..people are just going to have to accept that, and enjoy the race, because it is so special.[/QUOTE]

 

[bikerboy]

yes that is way too simplistic, look.... doping does not make you a superstar,think about it . how many riders in the tdf "dope"? ..probably all of them.thats 189 riders......now how many have a legitimate chance to win the tour each year? 5 to 10, if not less....doping doesnt make you a winner.....talent does.and you should enjoy the sport, these riders cannot possibly ride the worlds toughest sporting event in the world on just water..people are just going to have to accept that, and enjoy the race, because it is so special.

Yes, Gregor mentions what Ti-Man wrote a while back.

Everyone's body responds differently to drugs. Some gain massive power output from steroids, some just gain waterweight and a bad temper.

EPO is great for some, for others, they already have great blood levels. Give people a chance, dont just assume. That is the UCI's stance and look how the sport thrives right now, during the Tour.

Adam Bergman was one of the best pros in the US from 03-04, he ripped it up in a Saturn stage race on the east coast, hanging with Tom Danielson forever. A rider where I live used to compete with him when he was younger, before that.

He did not show the potential of a someday ProTour rider. When he started taking epo, his body responded to it better, he could take more of it than others because of natural blood levels.

He was grossly skinny and really just a total punk ass.

But he kicked everyone. Finished nature valley 3rd, after crashing hard.

11th, at Georgia, and many saw him in an amateur race in Wisco, solo victory, looking like an alien. He'd never won that race before...

These are not my words but somebody else's. I wasnt involved with bike racing then, but this was someone who witnessed it all.

I can see, having been a cycling fan for a while, that people just want to be where thay belong, and he thought he belonged in the Tour, especially after his mom died. But he got it in the face, trying to do EPO during Georgia!!

 

[limerickman]

some riders have hinted at that as a possible option, but honestly, i think "doping" has always been part of the sport , jacques anquetil(5 time winner of the tour) admitted to doping and this was in the late 50s early 60s....

Anquetil never admitted to anything.

With regard to shortening the length of stages - stage distances have been shortened substantially from the 1930's onwards.

look, either you can accept this or you cant.riders will aways look for a competitive edge and as a fan, i feel that it is none of my business what the riders put in their bodies..

As a fan, it should be your business (and every other fans business) as to what riders are putting in to their bodies.
Tolerance of doping, doesn't mitigate the fact that it is cheating.
Even if they're all doped.
If you dope, you cheat.

im an observer of the sport and i am not in the position to judge any of them because i dont know what it feels like to be them.thats my opinion, but whichever way you choose to see it, cycling is a beautiful sport and it will never be stopped by doping controversies.

You're not in a position to judge?
You've already said that you won't condemn a rider for doping - that is a judgement.

The value of sport is diminished by cheating/doping : I couldn't care less how much money/pressure there is : if you dope, you cheat and you acquire whatever prize/sponsorship money by deception/cheating.

The end doesn't justify the means - no matter how riders who have been caught try to rationalise it.

 

[bikerboy]

Anquetil never admitted to anything.

With regard to shortening the length of stages - stage distances have been shortened substantially from the 1930's onwards.




As a fan, it should be your business (and every other fans business) as to what riders are putting in to their bodies.
Tolerance of doping, doesn't mitigate the fact that it is cheating.
Even if they're all doped.
If you dope, you cheat.






You're not in a position to judge?
You've already said that you won't condemn a rider for doping - that is a judgement.

The value of sport is diminished by cheating/doping : I couldn't care less how much money/pressure there is : if you dope, you cheat and you acquire whatever prize/sponsorship money by deception/cheating.

The end doesn't justify the means - no matter how riders who have been caught try to rationalise it.

Its that attitude that keeps the problem such a secret. Its like murder or beating your wife, its unspeakable.

If the attitude of the USADA was more liberal, they could end it by taking people and paying them for info, and not punishing them. Instead its USADA vs Gansta USA. Such a conservative movement in WADA. I normally like the conservative side, but in this case its not working.

USADA pretends to have control over the situation, and its a big travesty. They are just posing that they know. Theres no test for transfusing one's own blood. 'Travis Tygart' struggled to deal with Landis, and they will all lose together if Landis is racing again next year.

 

[redLantern]

Anquetil never admitted to anything.

so anquetil didnt say in the public debate on french television. "only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux-Paris on just water". if that is not an admission ,i dont know what is.

"Anquetil argued that professional riders were workers and had the same right to treat their pains as, say, a geography teacher."

well i agree to disagree, but the fact that i dont condemn the riders is not a judgement. i am not approving or disapproving of their drug use, i am simply not condemning them.because i am not in their shoes.

 

[Doctor.House]

so anquetil didnt say in the public debate on french television. "only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux-Paris on just water". if that is not an admission ,i dont know what is.

"Anquetil argued that professional riders were workers and had the same right to treat their pains as, say, a geography teacher."

well i agree to disagree, but the fact that i dont condemn the riders is not a judgement. i am not approving or disapproving of their drug use, i am simply not condemning them.because i am not in their shoes.

That makes you pro doping and a doping apologist.

If the Nike shoe fits, wear those $300 LIVE WRONG sneakers.

 

[redLantern]

That makes you pro doping and a doping apologist.

If the Nike shoe fits, wear those $300 LIVE WRONG sneakers.

cow blood boy.....call me what you wish,your opinion doesnt mean anything to me.