So who won the tours that Lance didn't???

[slovakguy]

Originally Posted by danfoz .
Only time can tell. Capitalism is fickle. It doesn't care about integrity. I lot of us are amateur competitors and may have a slightly different take than the non-racing fan. I gather many of the people that watch are doing so for entertainment on their days off, and going out with a picknic basket is a time honored family pastime that a few drugs will have zero effect on. Did baseball stadiums start emptying out when the doping scandals hit? I don't know basball well enough to answer. I think cycling is too firmly embedded with the Europeans to be derailed by some American who doped. I certainly can't see any Belgians giving it a scond thought.

too right. if cycling's popularity wanes, it most likely will be in the american audience numbers. that said, i still like the sport regardless the stench left by that era of competition. like lim pointed out, "Man testing the limits of his physiology and cycling the most efficient means of transport known to mankind. What sport can be better?"

 

[Dave Pace]

UCI decides to leave Tour de France winner list blank in 7-year Lance Armstrong era
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/uci-decides-to-leave-tour-de-france-winner-list-blank-in-7-year-lance-armstrong-era/2012/10/26/10b6470e-1f81-11e2-8817-41b9a7aaabc7_story.html

no winners.

 

[alienator]

Only time can tell. Capitalism is fickle. It doesn't care about integrity. I lot of us are amateur competitors and may have a slightly different take than the non-racing fan. I gather many of the people that watch are doing so for entertainment on their days off, and going out with a picknic basket is a time honored family pastime that a few drugs will have zero effect on. Did baseball stadiums start emptying out when the doping scandals hit? I don't know basball well enough to answer. I think cycling is too firmly embedded with the Europeans to be derailed by some American who doped. I certainly can't see any Belgians giving it a scond thought.

Spot on. I think the Europeans and even the Canadians could care less what Americans think about cycling. Sure they like the money they bring in, but I think they also see that a majority of Americans only watch when an American has a shot at winning. I think the Europeans understand that little can be expected of a nation that is addicted to and having its collective brain rotted by NASCAR, the lowest common denominator in motor sports. True bicycle racing fans in the US won't turn away. I'll definitely keep tuning into the racing.

 

[Dave Pace]

Originally Posted by alienator .
I think the Europeans understand that little can be expected of a nation that is addicted to and having its collective brain rotted by NASCAR,

But left turns are epic, and so different.

 

[slovakguy]

Originally Posted by Dave Pace .

But left turns are epic, and so different.

+1

 

[qdc15]

Originally Posted by slovakguy .

too right. if cycling's popularity wanes, it most likely will be in the american audience numbers. that said, i still like the sport regardless the stench left by that era of competition...

Which era is that? Cheating has been an integral part of bicycle racing since the sport's inception. Have we entered a "new age" of clean racing? I seriously doubt it.

 

[slovakguy]

do you think there is no qualitative difference between the cheating covered by armstrong's era and the cheating of past eras? sure cheating is cheating. but the festering sore that this scab hid seems to be a great leap forward in technology, science, and hypocrisy.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

God bless Tony Stewart and Lance Armstrong! If they succeed in pissing off assholes, I'm smiling!

 

[hpearson]

Originally Posted by slovakguy .

do you think there is no qualitative difference between the cheating covered by armstrong's era and the cheating of past eras? sure cheating is cheating. but the festering sore that this scab hid seems to be a great leap forward in technology, science, and hypocrisy.

Thank God we have Slovy to sort out the stack ranking of moral transgressions so every one knows where the stand.

Of course the is no hypocrisy in that!

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by slovakguy .

do you think there is no qualitative difference between the cheating covered by armstrong's era and the cheating of past eras? sure cheating is cheating. but the festering sore that this scab hid seems to be a great leap forward in technology, science, and hypocrisy.

Blood boosting techniques and drugs are so effective, and the positive levels so lax, that for 10-15 years I believe it would have been impossible to win a major race clean. Certainly not a stage race, anyway. Stimulants, the main drug of the previous four decades, work by allowing the body to dig deeper into its capacity to work, but blood boosting raises the body's capacity.

I'm struck by the irony that just as cycling thought it was getting past Festina , excising what it thought was the major cancer on the sport, and thinking it was moving forward into a new clean era, the only American team of note had just signed a rider who had recovered from cancer and was now dedicated to professionalizing his team's doping program.

 

[Dave Pace]

Look I have a history with drug abuse. Rather not talk about it here. But with that known I will say this. What Lance and all of them do with their body is their deal. But if they were to use to race against me then they and you if you have to do this are a POS. Look all I'm saying is I would rather don't ask me and don't tell me. If you do that then I can give a F less. Just don't F me by having to use a drugs to get an edge on me, I'm fat, a former drug addict, and a delinquent. beat me fair and square. Not with some BS doping.

 

[slovakguy]

Originally Posted by hpearson .
Thank God we have Slovy to sort out the stack ranking of moral transgressions so every one knows where the stand.

Of course the is no hypocrisy in that!

perhaps you can show me how my asking if there is no qualitative difference in the performance enhancement of recent years against the performance enhancement techniques of earlier eras is an indication of hypocrisy on my part.

 

[hpearson]

Originally Posted by slovakguy .

perhaps you can show me how my asking if there is no qualitative difference in the performance enhancement of recent years against the performance enhancement techniques of earlier eras is an indication of hypocrisy on my part.

Simple

Since your question was rhetorical (I know this cause you answered your question), in lies self righteousness and the proclamation that you are able to sort out the severity of one cheater vs another and judge. You have limited context to be able to judge and hold any one in contempt.

Outside of Lemond, with whom this is personal, very few of the greatest athletes in the sport hold Lance in contempt. I would think above all they would have the right, but they choose not to.

 

[slovakguy]

you are indeed a baffling one, pearson. in asking if the degree of systematisation and the methods and actual drugs used does not constitute a qualitative difference from earlier generations' doping, i put forward my belief that those items constitute a new level of cheating. that is called offering support for my position on the matter. how you figure i am "self-righteous" is certainly a mystery to me. you have, though, put yourself forward in numerous other posts as an expert in what i'm feeling. having never met me or engaged with me in any significant correspondence, your powers of telepathy amaze me. further, if i "have limited context to be able to judge and hold any one in comtempt", wouldn't that also apply to you as you tack your moral interpretations to my and others' posts? as i've state elsewhere, should you like to take the debate to the soap box, i will be more than willing to debate these matters there.

 

[steve]

Below is a list of Tour de France winners /img/vbsmilies/smilies/cool.gif


1 1903 Garin, MauriceMaurice Garin 2 1904 Cornet, HenriHenri Cornet 3 1905 Trousselier, LouisLouis Trousselier 4 1906 Pottier, RenéRené Pottier 5 1907 Petit-Breton, LucienLucien Petit-Breton 6 1908 Petit-Breton, LucienLucien Petit-Breton (2) 7 1909 Faber, FrançoisFrançois Faber 8 1910 Lapize, OctaveOctave Lapize 9 1911 Garrigou, GustaveGustave Garrigou 10 1912 Defraye, OdileOdile Defraye 11 1913 Thys, PhilippePhilippe Thys 12 1914 Thys, PhilippePhilippe Thys (2) 13 1919 Lambot, FirminFirmin Lambot 14 1920 Thys, PhilippePhilippe Thys (3) 15 1921 Scieur, LéonLéon Scieur 16 1922 Lambot, FirminFirmin Lambot (2) 17 1923 Pélissier, HenriHenri Pélissier 18 1924 Bottecchia, OttavioOttavio Bottecchia 19 1925 Bottecchia, OttavioOttavio Bottecchia (2) 20 1926 Buysse, LucienLucien Buysse 21 1927 Frantz, NicolasNicolas Frantz 22 1928 Frantz, NicolasNicolas Frantz (2) 23 1929 De Waele, MauriceMaurice De Waele 24 1930 Leducq, AndréAndré Leducq 25 1931 Magne, AntoninAntonin Magne 26 1932 Leducq, AndréAndré Leducq (2) 27 1933 Speicher, GeorgesGeorges Speicher 28 1934 Magne, AntoninAntonin Magne (2) 29 1935 Maes, RomainRomain Maes 30 1936 Maes, SylvèreSylvère Maes 31 1937 Lapébie, RogerRoger Lapébie 32 1938 Bartali, GinoGino Bartali 33 1939 Maes, SylvèreSylvère Maes (2) 34 1947 Robic, JeanJean Robic 35 1948 Bartali, GinoGino Bartali (2) 36 1949 Coppi, FaustoFausto Coppi 37 1950 Kübler, FerdinandFerdinand Kübler 38 1951 Koblet, HugoHugo Koblet 39 1952 Coppi, FaustoFausto Coppi (2) 40 1953 Bobet, LouisonLouison Bobet 41 1954 Bobet, LouisonLouison Bobet (2) 42 1955 Bobet, LouisonLouison Bobet (3) 43 1956 Walkowiak, RogerRoger Walkowiak 44 1957 Anquetil, JacquesJacques Anquetil 45 1958 Gaul, CharlyCharly Gaul 46 1959 Bahamontes, FedericoFederico Bahamontes 47 1960 Nencini, GastoneGastone Nencini 48 1961 Anquetil, JacquesJacques Anquetil (2) 49 1962 Anquetil, JacquesJacques Anquetil (3) 50 1963 Anquetil, JacquesJacques Anquetil (4) 51 1964 Anquetil, JacquesJacques Anquetil (5) 52 1965 Gimondi, FeliceFelice Gimondi 53 1966 Aimar, LucienLucien Aimar 54 1967 Pingeon, RogerRoger Pingeon 55 1968 Janssen, JanJan Janssen 56 1969 Merckx, EddyEddy Merckx 57 1970 Merckx, EddyEddy Merckx (2) 58 1971 Merckx, EddyEddy Merckx (3) 59 1972 Merckx, EddyEddy Merckx (4) 60 1973 Ocaña, LuisLuis Ocaña 61 1974 Merckx, EddyEddy Merckx (5) 62 1975 Thévenet, BernardBernard Thévenet 63 1976 Van Impe, LucienLucien Van Impe 64 1977 Thévenet, BernardBernard Thévenet (2) 65 1978 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault 66 1979 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault (2) 67 1980 Zoetemelk, JoopJoop Zoetemelk 68 1981 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault (3) 69 1982 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault (4) 70 1983 Fignon, LaurentLaurent Fignon 71 1984 Fignon, LaurentLaurent Fignon (2) 72 1985 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault (5) 73 1986 LeMond, GregGreg LeMond 74 1987 Roche, StephenStephen Roche 75 1988 Delgado, PedroPedro Delgado 76 1989 LeMond, GregGreg LeMond (2) 77 1990 LeMond, GregGreg LeMond (3) 78 1991 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain 79 1992 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain (2) 80 1993 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain (3) 81 1994 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain (4) 82 1995 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain (5) 83 1996 Riis, Bjarne Bjarne Riis 84 1997 Ullrich, JanJan Ullrich 85 1998 Pantani, MarcoMarco Pantani 86 1999 87 2000 88 2001 89 2002 90 2003 91 2004 92 2005 93 2006 Pereiro, ÓscarÓscar Pereiro 94 2007 Contador, AlbertoAlberto Contador 95 2008 Sastre, CarlosCarlos Sastre 96 2009 Contador, AlbertoAlberto Contador (2) 97 2010 Schleck, AndyAndy Schleck 98 2011 Evans, CadelCadel Evans 99 2012 Wiggins, BradleyBradley Wiggins

 

[CAMPYBOB]

A list of known dopers, suspected dopers, admitted dopers and convicted dopers...I've checked off a few in two minutes. You guys can check off some more.


1 1903 Garin, MauriceMaurice Garin 2 1904 Cornet, HenriHenri Cornet 3 1905 Trousselier, LouisLouis Trousselier 4 1906 Pottier, RenéRené Pottier 5 1907 Petit-Breton, LucienLucien Petit-Breton 6 1908 Petit-Breton, LucienLucien Petit-Breton (2) 7 1909 Faber, FrançoisFrançois Faber 8 1910 Lapize, OctaveOctave Lapize 9 1911 Garrigou, GustaveGustave Garrigou 10 1912 Defraye, OdileOdile Defraye 11 1913 Thys, PhilippePhilippe Thys 12 1914 Thys, PhilippePhilippe Thys (2) 13 1919 Lambot, FirminFirmin Lambot 14 1920 Thys, PhilippePhilippe Thys (3) 15 1921 Scieur, LéonLéon Scieur 16 1922 Lambot, FirminFirmin Lambot (2) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]17[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1923[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Pélissier, Henri[/COLOR]Henri Pélissier 18 1924 Bottecchia, OttavioOttavio Bottecchia 19 1925 Bottecchia, OttavioOttavio Bottecchia (2) 20 1926 Buysse, LucienLucien Buysse 21 1927 Frantz, NicolasNicolas Frantz 22 1928 Frantz, NicolasNicolas Frantz (2) 23 1929 De Waele, MauriceMaurice De Waele 24 1930 Leducq, AndréAndré Leducq 25 1931 Magne, AntoninAntonin Magne 26 1932 Leducq, AndréAndré Leducq (2) 27 1933 Speicher, GeorgesGeorges Speicher 28 1934 Magne, AntoninAntonin Magne (2) 29 1935 Maes, RomainRomain Maes 30 1936 Maes, SylvèreSylvère Maes 31 1937 Lapébie, RogerRoger Lapébie 32 1938 Bartali, GinoGino Bartali 33 1939 Maes, SylvèreSylvère Maes (2) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]34[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1947[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Robic, Jean[/COLOR]Jean Robic 35 1948 Bartali, GinoGino Bartali (2) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]36[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1949[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Coppi, Fausto[/COLOR]Fausto Coppi 37 1950 Kübler, FerdinandFerdinand Kübler 38 1951 Koblet, HugoHugo Koblet [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]39[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1952[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Coppi, Fausto[/COLOR]Fausto Coppi (2) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]40[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1953[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Bobet, Louison[/COLOR]Louison Bobet [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]41[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1954[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Bobet, Louison[/COLOR]Louison Bobet (2) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]42[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1955[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Bobet, Louison[/COLOR]Louison Bobet (3) 43 1956 Walkowiak, RogerRoger Walkowiak [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]44[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1957[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Anquetil, Jacques[/COLOR]Jacques Anquetil [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]45[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1958[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Gaul, Charly[/COLOR]Charly Gaul 46 1959 Bahamontes, FedericoFederico Bahamontes 47 1960 Nencini, GastoneGastone Nencini [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]48[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1961[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Anquetil, Jacques[/COLOR]Jacques Anquetil (2) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]49[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1962[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Anquetil, Jacques[/COLOR]Jacques Anquetil (3) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]50[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1963[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Anquetil, Jacques[/COLOR]Jacques Anquetil (4) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]51[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1964[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Anquetil, Jacques[/COLOR]Jacques Anquetil (5) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]52[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1965[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Gimondi, Felice[/COLOR]Felice Gimondi 53 1966 Aimar, LucienLucien Aimar 54 1967 Pingeon, RogerRoger Pingeon 55 1968 Janssen, JanJan Janssen [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]56[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1969[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Merckx, Eddy[/COLOR]Eddy Merckx [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]57[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1970[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Merckx, Eddy[/COLOR]Eddy Merckx (2) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]58[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1971[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Merckx, Eddy[/COLOR]Eddy Merckx (3) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]59[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1972[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Merckx, Eddy[/COLOR]Eddy Merckx (4) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]60[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1973[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Ocaña, Luis[/COLOR]Luis Ocaña [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]61[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1974[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Merckx, Eddy[/COLOR]Eddy Merckx (5) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]62[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1975[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Thévenet, Bernard[/COLOR]Bernard Thévenet 63 1976 Van Impe, LucienLucien Van Impe [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]64[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1977[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Thévenet, Bernard[/COLOR]Bernard Thévenet (2) 65 1978 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault 66 1979 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault (2) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]67[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1980[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Zoetemelk, Joop[/COLOR]Joop Zoetemelk 68 1981 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault (3) 69 1982 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault (4) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]70[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1983[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Fignon, Laurent[/COLOR]Laurent Fignon [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]71[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1984[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Fignon, Laurent[/COLOR]Laurent Fignon (2) 72 1985 Hinault, BernardBernard Hinault (5) 73 1986 LeMond, GregGreg LeMond [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]74[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1987[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Roche, Stephen[/COLOR]Stephen Roche [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]75[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1988[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Delgado, Pedro[/COLOR]Pedro Delgado 76 1989 LeMond, GregGreg LeMond (2) 77 1990 LeMond, GregGreg LeMond (3) 78 1991 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain 79 1992 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain (2) 80 1993 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain (3) 81 1994 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain (4) 82 1995 Indurain, MiguelMiguel Indurain (5) [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]83[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1996[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Riis, Bjarne[/COLOR] Bjarne Riis [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]84[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1997[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Ullrich, Jan[/COLOR]Jan Ullrich [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]85[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]1998[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Pantani, Marco[/COLOR]Marco Pantani 86 1999 87 2000 88 2001 89 2002 90 2003 91 2004 92 2005 [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]93[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]2006[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Pereiro, Óscar[/COLOR]Óscar Pereiro [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]94[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]2007[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Contador, Alberto[/COLOR]Alberto Contador 95 2008 Sastre, CarlosCarlos Sastre [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]96[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]2009[/COLOR] [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Contador, Alberto[/COLOR]Alberto Contador (2) 97 2010 Schleck, AndyAndy Schleck 98 2011 Evans, CadelCadel Evans 99 2012 Wiggins, BradleyBradley Wiggins

 

[alienator]

I'm struck by the irony that just as cycling thought it was getting past Festina , excising what it thought was the major cancer on the sport, and thinking it was moving forward into a new clean era, the only American team of note had just signed a rider who had recovered from cancer and was now dedicated to professionalizing his team's doping program.

That's no small irony.

 

[alienator]

Thank God we have Slovy to sort out the stack ranking of moral transgressions so every one knows where the stand.   Of course the is no hypocrisy in that!

slovakguy wasn't commenting on morals. He's comparing the effectiveness and results of doping these days as compared to the past. That seems pretty obvious.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by hpearson .


Outside of Lemond, with whom this is personal, very few of the greatest athletes in the sport hold Lance in contempt. I would think above all they would have the right, but they choose not to.

Yes, they did choose to stay silent. And we can only guess at their reasons.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Eddie, Phil, Intherain, Contador...they all luv Lancer!

The reason? They all know the degree of dedication, the training, the skill, the massive amount of luck it takes to win multiple tours.