sodium phosphate side effects?



bepb77

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Hello, I am hoping that you can answer a question about sodium phosphate loading...I know it has been discussed here before. I am thinking of using the E-Caps Race Day Boost. I have heard good things about it, but am wondering if the sodium will make me bloated and retain water. Is this a common side effect? I have not been able to find this as a side effect. I want to use it for a hill climb and do not want to lug extra pounds of water up the climb:)

Thanks for your help.
 

ric_stern/RST

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Originally posted by bepb77
Hello, I am hoping that you can answer a question about sodium phosphate loading...I know it has been discussed here before. I am thinking of using the E-Caps Race Day Boost. I have heard good things about it, but am wondering if the sodium will make me bloated and retain water. Is this a common side effect? I have not been able to find this as a side effect. I want to use it for a hill climb and do not want to lug extra pounds of water up the climb:)

Thanks for your help.

the biggest side effect for a small percentage of people is severe GI distress, and the awful taste of the phosphate!

see http://www.cyclecoach.com/articles/?article=Phosphates&ext=.htm

ric
 

Ted B

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Additionally, it seems that phosphate loading is most effective when done for 5-6 days prior to a race as opposed to taking it on race day alone.
 

Roadie_scum

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Originally posted by ricstern
the biggest side effect for a small percentage of people is severe GI distress, and the awful taste of the phosphate!

see http://www.cyclecoach.com/articles/?article=Phosphates&ext=.htm

ric

Under what protocol was the phosphate given in your study? Was it similar to the protocols used that have shown improvements in 25's and maximal tests? Was it substantially different from the studies that haven't shown improvement?

Sorry if the info was there and I couldn't see it - I am tired after a day studying!

Cheers.
 

ric_stern/RST

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Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Under what protocol was the phosphate given in your study? Was it similar to the protocols used that have shown improvements in 25's and maximal tests? Was it substantially different from the studies that haven't shown improvement?

Sorry if the info was there and I couldn't see it - I am tired after a day studying!

Cheers.

four times 1g (with food and 'dissolved' in ~ 500 mL of a cold squash* drink) per day for five days. that's the same or very similar to other protocols that have found an ergogenic effect. we used tribasic dodecahydrate sodium phosphate.

*squash drinks: it appears from my time in the USA that such drinks aren't available and no one had a clue what i was talking about :-(. similar to a cordial.

ric
 

Roadie_scum

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Could you put it in gelatine caps to avoid the horrible taste?

It seems to me that something that improves VO2max, 10 mile TT and 25 mile TT is going to be pretty valuable to most endurance cycling events. Have you had experience with riders using it for (i) longer road races, (ii) crits or (iii) pursuits? Does it have a potential application in them?
 

ric_stern/RST

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Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Could you put it in gelatine caps to avoid the horrible taste?


that's how it was all measured out (in to caps). however, we found that some of the subjects who took them this way suffered bad GI problems (semi-instantaneous vomitting). the issue was cured by dissolving in water


It seems to me that something that improves VO2max, 10 mile TT and 25 mile TT is going to be pretty valuable to most endurance cycling events. Have you had experience with riders using it for (i) longer road races, (ii) crits or (iii) pursuits? Does it have a potential application in them?

the phosphate has only been tested over distances of 10 and 25 miles, and VO2max and Wingate tests. (and similar running events)

there was no improvement in the Wingate test, however, this may or may not be an artefact of not using the 'correct' type of phosphate, as some types are ergogenic and some aren't (e.g., calcium phosphate isn't, and nor is mono or dibasic sodium phosphate).

if you look at my article there's a graph of the actual minute by minute average power outputs for the 3 trials (fig 9 i think). it's clear to see that there's a significant difference in power in the first few mins between the phosphate trial and the placebo and control. additionally, other studies have shown an increase in VO2max, so it would apparently seem that phosphate is likely to increase pursuit power and in other events where TTpower and MAP are limiting factors.

i've not had much experience with people using it, as it's difficult to get hold of.

ric
 

Roadie_scum

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Originally posted by ricstern
there was no improvement in the Wingate test, however, this may or may not be an artefact of not using the 'correct' type of phosphate, as some types are ergogenic and some aren't (e.g., calcium phosphate isn't, and nor is mono or dibasic sodium phosphate).

So you need to use tribasic sodium phosphate? That's a pretty strong base isn't it? Is that what causes the GI upset?

Where do you acquire pharmaceutical/food grade sodium phosphate? Is it the same as cellulose soudium phosphate which is given medically?
 

ric_stern/RST

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Originally posted by Roadie_scum
So you need to use tribasic sodium phosphate? That's a pretty strong base isn't it? Is that what causes the GI upset?

Where do you acquire pharmaceutical/food grade sodium phosphate? Is it the same as cellulose soudium phosphate which is given medically?

yes, it's not particularly pleasant stuff the phosphate. i got the phosphate from a chemical company who supply only to companies (as opposed to individuals).

i'm *guessing* it's different to cellulose SP (as i'm not sure what exactly this is). we used tribasic dodecahydrate SP.

ric
 

Roadie_scum

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Originally posted by ricstern
the phosphate has only been tested over distances of 10 and 25 miles, and VO2max and Wingate tests. (and similar running events)

So when I finish my boring law degree and start studying exercise science, I can look at effect of tribasic sodium phosphate on Wingate tests, rather than mono/di basic, and also on LT? That would be the logical next step in the research?

Do you think it's ethical to give this stuff to athletes? It has some nasty side effects and is pretty strong... and given the paucity of research into its use as an ergogenic aid the side effects are relatively unknown. It can be toxic in large doses, and cellulose sodium phosphate can cause kidney stones, especially if vitamin C is taken with it (medline drug info). At what cost/risk athletic performance?
 

ric_stern/RST

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Originally posted by Roadie_scum
So when I finish my boring law degree and start studying exercise science, I can look at effect of tribasic sodium phosphate on Wingate tests, rather than mono/di basic, and also on LT? That would be the logical next step in the research?


i don't feel that's the next step. more important, imo, would be ascertain how and why it works, there's at least some evidence to think that it may have benefits for non-athletes who have cardiovascular disease.

however, i'd imagine that funding for such research would be highly difficult to obtain, or at least that's the reason why my research has stalled in this area.


Do you think it's ethical to give this stuff to athletes? It has some nasty side effects and is pretty strong... and given the paucity of research into its use as an ergogenic aid the side effects are relatively unknown. It can be toxic in large doses, and cellulose sodium phosphate can cause kidney stones, especially if vitamin C is taken with it (medline drug info). At what cost/risk athletic performance?

i think this question is a huge can of worms! and way outside *my* scope for this forum. I've written quite a lot about this sort of stuff, but it's a hugely complicated area, and to be honest i haven't got the time to go into it the way i'd want to.

moving away from the ethics side, all the research that used tribasic SP found an ergogenic effect. it should be limited to four loads per year (current recommendations), and as mentioned it's very likely cellulose SP is different.

additionally, to this, phosphate and phosphorous is consumed in many foods and drinks that people regularly have.

ric
 

Roadie_scum

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Originally posted by ricstern
i don't feel that's the next step. more important, imo, would be ascertain how and why it works, there's at least some evidence to think that it may have benefits for non-athletes who have cardiovascular disease.


What's the evidence for a benefit in cardiac disease? Sounds interesting.

As to the beginning of an explanation, I'm sure you've seen:

Clin Chim Acta. 2002 Sep;323(1-2):111-4.

The effect of phosphate loading on erythrocyte 2,3-bisphosphoglycerate levels.

Shows a boost in plasma (30%) and erythrocyte (25%) after phosphate loading. The plasma boost alone should have a significant benefit to VO2max and exercise performance shouldn't it? I believe most artificial plasma boosters are banned in competition for this reason.

however, i'd imagine that funding for such research would be highly difficult to obtain, or at least that's the reason why my research has stalled in this area.

A damn shame! I hope you have some luck finding funding if you want to pursue this further.

i think this question is a huge can of worms! and way outside *my* scope for this forum. I've written quite a lot about this sort of stuff, but it's a hugely complicated area, and to be honest i haven't got the time to go into it the way i'd want to.

Indeed ethics is a can of worms! I appreciate that you might not want to go into it here.

It's a topic of interest for me too, as I have a background in ethics and public policy. It's always interesting to contrast the approach of the theoretician (say a policy analyst setting guidelines) and the practitioner (medicos, exercise scientists, coaches, etc). Could you recommend any writings on this subject, either of your own or by others, from the side of the coach and scientist?
 

ric_stern/RST

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Originally posted by Roadie_scum
What's the evidence for a benefit in cardiac disease? Sounds interesting.


the Krieder et al paper from '91 (i think) looked at both haematological data (e.g., 2,3-BPG) and looked at echocardiographic images, and found an increase in VO2max, and cardiac output, as there'd been an increase in left ventricular diameter with phosphate loading. this explanation, however, means the complete opposite of the 2,3-BPG explanation (as O2 unloading would have decreased with Krieder's data).


As to the beginning of an explanation, I'm sure you've seen:

Clin Chim Acta. 2002 Sep;323(1-2):111-4.

The effect of phosphate loading on erythrocyte 2,3-bisphosphoglycerate levels.

Shows a boost in plasma (30%) and erythrocyte (25%) after phosphate loading. The plasma boost alone should have a significant benefit to VO2max and exercise performance shouldn't it? I believe most artificial plasma boosters are banned in competition for this reason.

i hadn't seen this article, however, this is what the majority of the research into phosphate loading suggests.

A damn shame! I hope you have some luck finding funding if you want to pursue this further.

it's dead and buried. unless anyone would like to offer me some funding to finish my PhD :)

Indeed ethics is a can of worms! I appreciate that you might not want to go into it here.

It's a topic of interest for me too, as I have a background in ethics and public policy. It's always interesting to contrast the approach of the theoretician (say a policy analyst setting guidelines) and the practitioner (medicos, exercise scientists, coaches, etc). Could you recommend any writings on this subject, either of your own or by others, from the side of the coach and scientist?

it's not that i don't want to get into it, but that there's a heck of a lot of issues on both sides that i feel would need to be explored. such a topic would therefore, be very time consuming for me, as it'll cover a lot of ground.

as you maybe aware, i don't like leaving stuff half finished, so i'd either not start on the topic or waffle on for ages!

i've argued both sides of this case, and published work in Cycling Weekly and The Independent arguing for, and playing devils advocate. i'll briefly stress that i abhor drug use and cheating.

as regards texts, i think from memory, there's probally lots of stuff about the sociology of sport from people such as Ellish and Cashmore that covers this area (drug use/ethics) and what exactly is a level playing field. it's, imo, very interesting stuff.

ric