Sodium Phosphate

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by shootek, Apr 2, 2003.

  1. shootek

    shootek New Member

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    What is up with Sodium Phosphate Loading?

    Does it help and if it does how?

    Andrej
     
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  2. Vo2

    Vo2 Member

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    ricstern had a good writeup on the subject on his website, but the link doesn't seem to work anymore. Click here for the link...
    Ric is a member of our forums, and can supply you with great info.
     
  3. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    Vo2,

    Thanks for pointing out the web site problem, not sure why it isn't working, but hopefully it will be soon, now my web master knows!

    There's definitely some evidence that certain types of phosphate work, in our study we found a significant effect. Hopefully, the page and details will be up soon, because i'm far too tired after training to string a decent sentence about phosphate together :)

    If it isn't, i'll try to be more coherent later :)
    Ric
     
  4. bikerjoe

    bikerjoe New Member

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    Is this just similar to Sodium Bicardonate (baking soda), basically giving you a lactic acid buffer?
     
  5. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    No, it's completely different. Sodium Bicarbonate, helps with very lactate concentrations in very short events e.g., < few minutes, at buffering lactate. In (i think) ~50% of people who use bicarb loading (you need very high doses for it to work), there are bad gastro intestinal side effects :-(

    Sodium Phosphate, is thought to work in two different ways, which as yet have yet to be fully elucidated. These include increased heart alterations, or changes to blood biochemistry. Phosphate does not lower lactate concentrations. It appears that with phosphate loading, fitness is temporarily increased with an increase in VO2 max, LT, and performance (see, Kreider et al, Stewart et al, Stern et al), however, some there are equally many studies (although these mainly used calcium phosphate) that show no effect on performance or physiological variables (e.g., Mannix et al, Kraemer et al and i think Galloway et al).

    In the studies that show an ergogenic effect, the effect lasts ~10-days. Depending on the method of consumption, and with sensitive people, sodium phosphate can have some very nasty, almost instantaneous side effects :-(

    Ric
     
  6. bikerjoe

    bikerjoe New Member

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    Ric,

    where can you order Sodium Phosphate in the uk, and does it come under a different name like some other products.

    Cheers
     
  7. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    Yes, it's dirt cheap £12.99 for a years supply (if i've remembered correctly!) and get it direct from Science in Sport, www.scienceinsport.com -- it's not listed on the website so you'll need to email them.

    Ric
     
  8. shootek

    shootek New Member

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    Rick would this do? I probably can't get anything else in Slovenia (we have very crapy laws) and would't like to mix them myself.

    Twinlab Phos Fuel

    A scientifically designed, performance enhancing supplement that can help block lactic acid build-up and delay the onset of muscular fa-tigue. Contains the major lactic acid buffers in blood and muscle such as phosphate, bicarbonate and carnosine as well as a synergistic combination of lactate and energy metabolizers.
    Four hard gelatin capsules supply:

    Sodium Phosphate (dibasic) 4000 mg
    Potassium Bicarbonate 816 mg
    L-Carnosine 50 mg
    Lipoic Acid 100 mcg
    Vitamin B-1 1.5 mg
    Vitamin B-2 1.9 mg
    Vitamin B-3 (niacinamide) 20 mg
    Vitamin B-6 2 mg
    Pantothenic Acid 10 mg
    Biotin 300 mcg
    Capsules: 180's.

    tnx
     
  9. shootek

    shootek New Member

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    Ric the page is still not available. Will it be soon?

    Or could you write some more information (like dosages, how, when to take it ect.)

    And could you please tell me about Phos fuel.

    Shootek
     
  10. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    The page will be available soon, my webmaster is currently away!

    Phosfuel -- firstly, i'm not sure it's still available. Second, there's some evidence (but not much) to suggest that dibasic phosphate might be *ergolytic* to performance. There's a paucity of data on phosphate loading in general.

    In our study, we used tribasic sodium phosphate, which gave a significant improvement using a randomised, placebo, double-blind crossover methodology.

    You can get tribasic from www.scienceinsport.com -- but you'll need to email them direct (not on the web shop yet). From memory, it's dirt cheap about UK£12.99 for a years supply, plus postage.

    Ric
     
  11. steve

    steve Administrator
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  12. steve

    steve Administrator
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    One thing Ric, you don't say how much to take in that article ?
     
  13. Blimp

    Blimp New Member

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    Beats me why anyone would put that crap in their body. You have to wonder about anyone who would poison themselves to get marginally better performance.
     
  14. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    In our study (and most others) we (they) use 1 gram four times a day for four days (other studies have loaded for five days), taken after food, and with the phosphate dissolved in a cold drink (e.g., cordial/squash).

    Ric
     
  15. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    leaving aside any discussion on moral/ethical grounds, it's hardly a "marginally better performance". We found an increase of ~ 8%, which represents a highly significant increase, and by way of a comparison (not a suggestion!) is only slightly below the increase from Epo supplementation (~ 10%).

    Ric
     
  16. VeloFlash

    VeloFlash New Member

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    I noticed the NSW Institute of Sport (here in Sydney Oz) must see some prospective merit in sodium phosphate loading as they have called for volunteer cyclists to test. I doubt if they publish results but I may know some of the participants to get their views.

    It would be just my luck to be in the placebo group if I put my hand up!
     
  17. steve

    steve Administrator
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    I know of a few guys down this way who have used it in the past! You do have to wonder about the health effects of taking a lot of it.

    cheers!
     
  18. shootek

    shootek New Member

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    Ric do you know any other company that a person could buy tribasic sodium phosphate from?

    I wrote to to the company that you said but I got the reply:

    Hello Andrej,

    We may have had some of the product you mention but it is not on our current stock list. I have no knowledge of it.



    I think you can assume that we cannot supply you. Sorry.



    Ivor
     
  19. bikerjoe

    bikerjoe New Member

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  20. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    The Tekno Fuel Phosphate uses dibasic sodium phosphate: it has been postulated that this may cause fatigue at a cellular level, and hinder your performance. From memory, all the studies that seen an ergogenic effect have used tribasic sodium phosphate.

    Furthermore, the Tekno Fuel phosphate, is 'loose', i.e., you have to weigh/measure it out yourself. Get too little and it'll likely have no effect, too much can have bad consequences. Not many people have access to highly accurate scales to weigh each serving to 1gram!

    I'm currently waiting to hear back from the company and others, as there's been quite a lot of interest in the phosphate over the last couple of months.

    Ric
     
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