Sodium Phosphate



J-MAT

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I used to be a real science geek. One night before the start of a very fast and well-know So Cal training ride, I calculated how many milliequivilents of bicarbonate ions I would have to ingest to improve lactate buffering based on some data I had come across.

The ride started at 0615 and at around 0515, I re-checked my calculations from the night before and carefully mixed up a solution of baking soda and water(sodium bicarbonate)using a gram scale.

I gulped it down, felt fine, was ready to jam!!!

I drove the 30 minutes to the start, put my bike together and warmed up. After a few minutes I felt a very strange and uncomfortable sensation in my gut. After a few more minutes the pain became intolerable, and I was very quickly going to have to find a place to relieve myself.

As the sun came up and illuminated the area, many joggers and other fitness enthusiasts were out bright and early, further compounding a bad situation.

I managed to find a patch of bamboo and tall grass in a nearby dry riverbed. Let's just say it was the worst case of diarrhea I had ever know. Not only in magnitude, but in duration as well.

Due to the lack of facilities available, let's just say that my personal hygine was "less than optimal."

I managed to make the start with about 30 seconds to spare. I was surprised to finsh the ride well, and quickly got home for a shower.

The moral of the story???

If you want to experiment with ergogenic aids, be sure to have a toilet nearby!!!
 

ric_stern/RST

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From memory, it's something like 50% of subjects have problems with bicarbonate loading, causing severe GI distress.

Bicarbonate loading is only really useful for short, very high intensity workloads (e.g., up to ~ 6-mins).

Ric
 

Fat Guy

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The loading process is 1 mg max per day for 4 days. A bunch the night before will cause that.

The Training Bible as alternative loading programs for folks with sensitive stomachs.

I have never heard of loading with sodium bicarbonate, only sodium phosphate but maybe they are the same? Somehow I doubt it.
 

J-MAT

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Tell me about it Ric!!!

I came across a study that showed improved lactate
tolerance with bicarb loading. I think it was for runners. It was around 1992. They showed the formula based on kg's of bodyweight.

I though it(bicarb)would work well even though I was aware of possible G.I. distress. Anyone who has taken a chemistry class knows that baking soda and water solutions are used to neutralize strong acid spills. I though the lactate would meet its match with the bicarb. Maybe if I could have kept it inside!!!

For the most part, hard training and solid nutrition are by far the most important thing anyone can do for good health and performance.
Still, people always look for an edge.

When I lifted a lot, I knew guys that did steroids. Lots of them. I knew one guy that was "stacking" with Dianabol, Winstrol, Anadrol 50, Decca, HGH, and more. A cocktail of injectable and oral steroids. He said if he couldn't remember if he took his "D-Bol" in the morning, he would take a few in the afternoon just to be sure!!!

I never took steroids or any illegal substances. I was weaker than all of them. But then again, I still have all my hair!!! One guy had a massive stroke surfing in Newport Beach one day. He was 19 years old.

People experiment with performance aids, but in the end, a true champion will excel without them. Athletes often develop psychological crutches if they don't take their "magic potion" before important competitions.

Switching foods and carb drinks, etc. can also cause problems with the digestive system, let alone pure ergogenic aids. Whenever you make a big change in diet or supplements, make sure your body agreees with it, and don't do it the night before an important event!!!
 

ric_stern/RST

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Fat guy wrote:
The loading process is 1 mg max per day for 4 days. A bunch the night before will cause that.

>assuming that you are talking about sodium phosphate then the needed amount for an ergogenic effect is *1000 mg* four times per day for 4 to 5 days. This is the only protocol that has caused an ergogenic effect.


The Training Bible as alternative loading programs for folks with sensitive stomachs.
>unproven and unlikely to work (if you mean the phosphate one)


I have never heard of loading with sodium bicarbonate, only sodium phosphate but maybe they are the same? Somehow I doubt it.
>Bicarb loading has been used, for a while. Hill and Lupton (1923) were the first to suggest that buffering H+ ions would counteract lactic acid and prolong short-term (high intensity) exercise.

Bicarb works by "neutralising" the acid during very intense exercise (e.g., 1km TT type efforts, not crit or road racing).

There's two ways in which phosphate has been thought to work, both have research to back them up. They are increased 2,3-BPG and increases in cardiac output.

Phosphate 'increases' fitness (by increasing LT and Vo2max), whereas bicarb delays fatigue.

Ric
 

Shibumi

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Sodium phosphate is prescribed as a laxative. Are the volumes of ingestion that are being recommended more or less than those recommended for use as a laxative? If they are the same as or more, why would I want to do that (I want to be on the bike, not the toilet!)? Laxatives can cause dehydration (by drawing water into the digestive system?), so presumably you should be taking a lot of water with it as well?
 

ric_stern/RST

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These were all things that had to be considered by our ethics board, prior to our investigations. however, once we changed from swallowing capsules to emptying the contents into ~ 500 mL of liquid (e.g., cold drink), no one reported any GI distress (with the swallowing some people ended up vomitting).

No further problems occured, and we ended up with a significant ergogenic effect.

Ric
 

cty

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Jul 8, 2003
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Hi!

I'm new here, so greetings to you all cycling fans!

I have a question about this phosphate thing. I've read a lots of articles about it and decided to give it a try. I've managed to get some tribasic from a chemicals factory (they said it's legal, meaning that i don't have to have any licenses to buy it). Well, it's quite cheap, by the way. (If it works, then probably it's the most practical performance aid, looking at the price/benefit ratio...)

But it's not pure na3po4, it has 12*h2o (water...) added to it, which is the available hydrous form at most places. I have 1kg of it (probably would be enough for years, if one wants to use it regurarly; but i don't suggest that thing). According to the molecular weights of both materials, i have 431 grams of na3po4 and the remaining 569 grams is water.

At e-caps.com, dr. Bill's saying that "na3po4+12h2o=tribasic sodium phosphate". And he doesn't mentioning "12-hydrate" or "dodecahydrate"; nor do the other phosphate-documents. From this, i suggest that i have to take 1 grams of na3po4+12h2o.

Is my logic correct, or i have to measure 1 grams only from na3po4? (Which would mean that i have to take in 2.3 grams from the mixture, four times a day.)

The difference between the two doses is 1.3 grams, which is quite huge; so it's an important question. I don't want to get overdosed, you know ;-) Nor want to be underdosed, of course...

Thanx for your help!

PS: I will try to swallow by dissolving it in a glass of pure orange juice, so the high alkalinity of the tribasic can be neutralized. Is this method okay?
 

ric_stern/RST

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Originally posted by cty
Hi!

I'm new here, so greetings to you all cycling fans!

I have a question about this phosphate thing. I've read a lots of articles about it and decided to give it a try. I've managed to get some tribasic from a chemicals factory (they said it's legal, meaning that i don't have to have any licenses to buy it). Well, it's quite cheap, by the way. (If it works, then probably it's the most practical performance aid, looking at the price/benefit ratio...)

But it's not pure na3po4, it has 12*h2o (water...) added to it, which is the available hydrous form at most places. I have 1kg of it (probably would be enough for years, if one wants to use it regurarly; but i don't suggest that thing). According to the molecular weights of both materials, i have 431 grams of na3po4 and the remaining 569 grams is water.

At e-caps.com, dr. Bill's saying that "na3po4+12h2o=tribasic sodium phosphate". And he doesn't mentioning "12-hydrate" or "dodecahydrate"; nor do the other phosphate-documents. From this, i suggest that i have to take 1 grams of na3po4+12h2o.

Is my logic correct, or i have to measure 1 grams only from na3po4? (Which would mean that i have to take in 2.3 grams from the mixture, four times a day.)

The difference between the two doses is 1.3 grams, which is quite huge; so it's an important question. I don't want to get overdosed, you know ;-) Nor want to be underdosed, of course...

Thanx for your help!

PS: I will try to swallow by dissolving it in a glass of pure orange juice, so the high alkalinity of the tribasic can be neutralized. Is this method okay?

In our study, as far as i'm aware is the latest study on phosphate loading we used Na3PO4.12H2O, one gram four times a day. We dissolved the phosphate in ~ 500mL of (e.g.) orange squash/cordial. Do not attempt to take the phosphate without dissolving it first, it can cause pretty much instantaneous vomitting :-(.

Stern, R. A., Folland, J., Brickley, G. (2001, A). Sodium phosphate loading can improve laboratory 10-mile cycling performance in trained cyclists. Canadian Journal of Physiology

Ric
 

iDog

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Aug 22, 2003
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Ric,

I happened to find this thread and your research article “Sodium Phosphate Loading”. I think it’s great you did this research and it sure looks like there’s evidence that Sodium Phosphate Loading can increase athletic performance in certain situations. Using your numbers I only get a 3.3% increase in performance vs. 8%. There is an 8% increase in power, as you stated, but isn’t the time difference more telling than the power difference, especially if you’re comparing your results to the research results at the top of the page, i.e. “The article said that 25 mile time could be reduced by about 8 % with phosphate, which, is a hefty increase in performance.” Also, I’m not sure what you mean by, “One subject, however, went backwards when using the phosphate, which means that the average improvement was actually greater than 40 seconds.” Could you please explain this? Sorry if I sound like a picky geek but I often read research articles in magazines… and have questions afterwards. This thread gives me the rare opportunity to ask questions. Thanks.
 

ric_stern/RST

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iDog wrote, i replied with >>

Ric,

I happened to find this thread and your research article “Sodium Phosphate Loading”. I think it’s great you did this research and it sure looks like there’s evidence that Sodium Phosphate Loading can increase athletic performance in certain situations. Using your numbers I only get a 3.3% increase in performance vs. 8%. There is an 8% increase in power, as you stated, but isn’t the time difference more telling than the power difference, especially if you’re comparing your results to the research results at the top of the page, i.e. “The article said that 25 mile time could be reduced by about 8 % with phosphate, which, is a hefty increase in performance.”

>>Originally, the idea appeared in a cycling mag in the UK and the author of that article suggested that phosphate would decrease time by ~ 8%. As my web page article appeared later in that same magazine, the intro was to set the 'scene' as reagrds the first article

>>in the lab, you'd always measure power output for cycling as opposed to speed. Speed will vary under many different conditions (head winds, tail winds, up hill, downhill, different barometric pressures, etc).

Also, I’m not sure what you mean by, “One subject, however, went backwards when using the phosphate, which means that the average improvement was actually greater than 40 seconds.”

>>probably badly worded! basically, one subject produced less power in his phosphate trial compared to his placebo and control trial. therefore, if i hadn't have included him in the study, the average would have been better than the 40-secs or 8%

Could you please explain this? Sorry if I sound like a picky geek but I often read research articles in magazines… and have questions afterwards. This thread gives me the rare opportunity to ask questions. Thanks.

>>hope that helps?

ric
 

iDog

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Aug 22, 2003
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Ric,

Thanks for the reply. Now I understand your comment about, “One subject… went backwards…”. I was thinking, if one subject was slower on the phosphate wouldn’t this make the average improvement less than 40 seconds (vs. more) – distorted thinking on my part – my thinking only sounds logical “on the surface”.

I think I understand why it’s better to compare power - if power is measured accurately. I’m assuming it is.

I haven’t read the article/research on the 25 mile time trial (that you refer to at the beginning of your article). Eventhough they say, “…time could be reduced by 8%...”, I’m guessing they also measured power and translated this to time? I would think this can be translated directly. Right?

Can you briefly describe how power is measured? Is it basically a measurement of the force (torque) applied to the pedals? Thanks for the info.
 

ric_stern/RST

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Originally posted by iDog
Ric,

I think I understand why it’s better to compare power - if power is measured accurately. I’m assuming it is.

I haven’t read the article/research on the 25 mile time trial (that you refer to at the beginning of your article). Eventhough they say, “…time could be reduced by 8%...”, I’m guessing they also measured power and translated this to time? I would think this can be translated directly. Right?

Can you briefly describe how power is measured? Is it basically a measurement of the force (torque) applied to the pedals? Thanks for the info.

Power is usually measured accurately. There's several ways of measuring power, the two most popular are the Power Tap hub (www.power-tap.com) and the SRM cranks (www.srm.de).

Both systems use strain gauges to measure the torque and then either multiplied out by hub or crank velocity respectively. Both systems are very accurate. Data can then be downloaded to your PC/Mac.

There's quite a bit of info in the power forum, or here for how to determine zones for training with power http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern

ric
 

cabbage74

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Aug 22, 2003
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Some people (including myself) have been finding it hard to locate Tri-basic Sodium Phosphate. Most of the time when I called the raw material manufacturers they didn't even have it listed on their databases, let alone sell it.

Something which will help you locate it is knowing its MSDS number which is. S4770.

For a copy of the MSDS (there may be newer version) you may find it here.
http://164.107.52.42/MSDS/S/sodium phosphate tribasic.pdf

Another site is useful in the fact it lists the LD50 (Dose at which you 50% of test animals died,based on body weight), which happens to be 7400 mg kg-1. Or approx 500 grams for a 70kg person. Unlikly.
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_phosphate_tribasic.html

Finally I did locate a supplier in Australia for this. As people have said before it is dirt cheap, which is good cause they only sell it in 25kg, which will cost approx $55 AUS, or $35US.

I hope this helps.
p.s. My supplier only has it as Technical Grade and not Food Grade, which should be ok....I hope. Especially with only taking 1gm/day.
 

steve

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Originally posted by cabbage74
Finally I did locate a supplier in Australia for this. As people have said before it is dirt cheap, which is good cause they only sell it in 25kg, which will cost approx $55 AUS, or $35US.

I hope this helps.
p.s. My supplier only has it as Technical Grade and not Food Grade, which should be ok....I hope. Especially with only taking 1gm/day.

At that rate 25kg is going to last you a long time ;)
 

dorkpants

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Nov 10, 2003
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cabbage74 said:
Some people (including myself) have been finding it hard to locate Tri-basic Sodium Phosphate. Most of the time when I called the raw material manufacturers they didn't even have it listed on their databases, let alone sell it.

Something which will help you locate it is knowing its MSDS number which is. S4770.

For a copy of the MSDS (there may be newer version) you may find it here.
http://164.107.52.42/MSDS/S/sodium phosphate tribasic.pdf

Another site is useful in the fact it lists the LD50 (Dose at which you 50% of test animals died,based on body weight), which happens to be 7400 mg kg-1. Or approx 500 grams for a 70kg person. Unlikly.
http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_phosphate_tribasic.html

Finally I did locate a supplier in Australia for this. As people have said before it is dirt cheap, which is good cause they only sell it in 25kg, which will cost approx $55 AUS, or $35US.

I hope this helps.
p.s. My supplier only has it as Technical Grade and not Food Grade, which should be ok....I hope. Especially with only taking 1gm/day.

what company supplies it in AUS?
 

gntlmn

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I can hardly believe I'm reading about all you guys shamelessly doping with sodium phosphate. Wouldn't this be easy to detect with testing as a performance enhancing substance? Why is this not on the banned list? Is it expected to be in the near future? Why should athletes have to take chemicals to stay in competition with those of you who are doing this?