Sodium Phosphate



duro

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Oct 16, 2004
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Hi all.

having loaded with SP how long do the improved performance effects last?

is it a case of load for the 4 days up to race day and when the 'effort' is over then youre back to scratch or is there a carry over period?

Duro
 

steve

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Aug 12, 2001
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VeloFlash said:
You may also check with the NSW Institute of Sport

http://www.nswis.com.au/Online/splash.asp

A year or so ago, their sports scientists were calling for volunteers amongst competitive cyclists to participate in the testing of sodium phosphate.
Hi

I wasn't able to find a link to the study results, do you know if its even published on the website or not?

cheers
 

ric_stern/RST

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steve said:
Hi

I wasn't able to find a link to the study results, do you know if its even published on the website or not?

cheers

we have an abstract in canadian journal of applied physiology, and the full article is under review for another journal. i'm not sure about the NSW study though.

ric
 

ric_stern/RST

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duro said:
Hi all.

having loaded with SP how long do the improved performance effects last?

is it a case of load for the 4 days up to race day and when the 'effort' is over then youre back to scratch or is there a carry over period?

Duro

it takes some period of time for the effect to wear off. in the research most studies use a 14-day washout period, and some have suggested that the effects gradually wear off over a ~ 5 day period.

ric
 

VeloFlash

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steve said:
Hi

I wasn't able to find a link to the study results, do you know if its even published on the website or not?

cheers

I can recall that through the Cycling NSW website 'news', the NSWIS were calling for cycling volunteers to participate in sodium phosphate testing.

I have not heard anything since. You may check with NSWIS if the study was undertaken and if the results are available.
 

Roadie_scum

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ric_stern/RST said:
we have an abstract in canadian journal of applied physiology, and the full article is under review for another journal. i'm not sure about the NSW study though.

ric

Ric, is acute hypocalciaemia a concern with Phosphate use?
 

ric_stern/RST

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Roadie_scum said:
Ric, is acute hypocalciaemia a concern with Phosphate use?

Possibly. No one has tested that per se, and the actual data available on phosphate loading in general is limited. Current recommendations are that phosphate loading should be limited to four times per year spread out evenly. When i was doing my thesis on phosphate loading, the thoughts were to either load maximally four times per year, or that continual use of phosphate would just cause it to be excreted.

i'd certainly err on the side of caution and limit it to four times per year, and not use it, if for e.g., you're osteoporotic.

additionally, it's worth noting that if you consume large amounts of (e.g.) cola you may be subjecting yourself to leaching from the bones in a similar manner.

i can't currently think of any [legal] supplements that don't have _some_ health risks associated with them.

Ric
 

Roadie_scum

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ric_stern/RST said:
Possibly. No one has tested that per se, and the actual data available on phosphate loading in general is limited. Current recommendations are that phosphate loading should be limited to four times per year spread out evenly. When i was doing my thesis on phosphate loading, the thoughts were to either load maximally four times per year, or that continual use of phosphate would just cause it to be excreted.

i'd certainly err on the side of caution and limit it to four times per year, and not use it, if for e.g., you're osteoporotic.

additionally, it's worth noting that if you consume large amounts of (e.g.) cola you may be subjecting yourself to leaching from the bones in a similar manner.

i can't currently think of any [legal] supplements that don't have _some_ health risks associated with them.

Ric

Cheers, that's about what I thought the situation would be. I take it none of the participants in your study exhibited the classic twitchiness associated with acute calcium deficit or other noticeable signs, and you don't know of this being reported with acute phosphate loading for ergogenic effect? I couldn't find any suggestion that this had occured in other trials.
 

ric_stern/RST

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Roadie_scum said:
Cheers, that's about what I thought the situation would be. I take it none of the participants in your study exhibited the classic twitchiness associated with acute calcium deficit or other noticeable signs, and you don't know of this being reported with acute phosphate loading for ergogenic effect? I couldn't find any suggestion that this had occured in other trials.

no one reported any adverse side effects, other than when we first started the trial some people suffered severe GI distress, which was resolved by 'dissolving' the phosphate in ~500 mL of (e.g.) orange squash (cordial??) rather than swallowing the capsule with a drink.

ric
 

Azrael

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Does anyone have more information on Baking Soda("sodium bicarbonate" if I reckon correctly) and it's effects? You can get that stuff in the supermarket I suppose....
 

ric_stern/RST

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Azrael said:
Does anyone have more information on Baking Soda("sodium bicarbonate" if I reckon correctly) and it's effects? You can get that stuff in the supermarket I suppose....

for the purpose of clarification, bicarbonate loading and sodium phosphate loading work by completely different mechanisms (although the mechanisms behind phosphate loading have yet to be fully elucidated).

bicarbonate loading tends to work for only very short events (say up to 10-mins). you need a very large dose of bicarbonate (0.3 g/kg body mass, e.g., a 70 kg person would require 21 g). as i understand it, about 50% of subjects in studies looking at bicarb loading suffer *severe* GI distress. To put it gently, if you decide on trying bicarb loading make sure you stay close to a toilet in case you're one of the 50% who suffers from "distress".

ric
 

Azrael

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ric_stern/RST said:
for the purpose of clarification, bicarbonate loading and sodium phosphate loading work by completely different mechanisms (although the mechanisms behind phosphate loading have yet to be fully elucidated).

bicarbonate loading tends to work for only very short events (say up to 10-mins). you need a very large dose of bicarbonate (0.3 g/kg body mass, e.g., a 70 kg person would require 21 g). as i understand it, about 50% of subjects in studies looking at bicarb loading suffer *severe* GI distress. To put it gently, if you decide on trying bicarb loading make sure you stay close to a toilet in case you're one of the 50% who suffers from "distress".

ric
Thanks you for explaining. Must admit I had a laugh from your last phrase... :D
 

blkhotrod

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ric_stern/RST said:
leaving aside any discussion on moral/ethical grounds, it's hardly a "marginally better performance". We found an increase of ~ 8%, which represents a highly significant increase, and by way of a comparison (not a suggestion!) is only slightly below the increase from Epo supplementation (~ 10%).

Ric
i strongly encourage you to listen to ric, makes for easier competition.

while your wasting your time, you might want to check out the article in the NY Times today from Columbia University on muscle fatigue mechanism...........oh course now i understand the Na2PO4 stops the leak of calcium into the muscles, ric your so smart...:D
 

Bailsibub

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I used to use So Phos when I was racing semi-pro. The stuff is the BOMB (no other way to put it).

It was really funny. You could always tell who was using it. They would go from finishing in the back to being up in the front.

I used it only a couple times per year. Honestly, it worked so well, I was worried it was doing something really bad to the body.

Endorphine, it would certainly help in an event that length. Just be really conservative with how you use it.
 

PaulMD

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Jul 26, 2006
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Ric in your latest article you uses Sodium phosphate tribasic dodecahydrate from Sigma–Aldrich (UK). When I go to the website of Sigma-Aldrich I see 5 different products with Sodium phosphate tribasic dodecahydrate (Na3PO4 · 12H2O, Formula Weight:380.12, CAS Number:10101-89-0). Which one is usable for humans?

The products I find are:
S7778 SigmaUltra, ≥98.0% (titration) (Sigma)
S1001 ≥98% (Sigma)
71908 BioUltra, ≥98.0% (T) (Fluka)
71911 puriss. p.a., ACS reagent, ≥98.0% (T) (Fluka)
04277 puriss., ≥98% (Riedel-de Haën)
 

Steve_B

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Bailsibub said:
I used to use So Phos when I was racing semi-pro. The stuff is the BOMB (no other way to put it).
I tried it last year in for a TT as the first stage of a stage race. I did do about 4% better power in the TT than I did in training leading up to the event but I have no way of telling if that was because of:

1) the sodium phosphate
2) resting and tapering correctly prior to the event
3) the excitement of the race environment
4) all of the above