Sodium Phosphate

Discussion in 'Health Nutrition and Supplements' started by Shibumi, Apr 18, 2003.

  1. Shibumi

    Shibumi New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
    In his book 'The Cyclist's Training Bible', Joe Friel quotes a study that suggests that sodium phosphate loading can improve a TT performance by up to 8%.

    Does anyone have experience of this supplement? What is it, where can you get it, does it work, is it legal for racing, can it have side-effects, etc?
     
    Tags:


  2. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    In our study, we found an ~8% increase in power output for a 10-m TT with sodium phosphate loading.

    There was a recent thread on it here: http://www.cyclingforums.com/t18678.html

    And, at present, i don't know where to commercially buy the phosphate.

    Ric
     
  3. Shibumi

    Shibumi New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
  4. winchaos

    winchaos New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2004
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    E-caps / hammer nutrition make a product called Race Day Boost that contains sodium phosphate in adequate quantities to get an ergogenic effect. Another source is phos fuel from twinlabs but I'm not sure if they make it any longer.
     
  5. Duckwah

    Duckwah New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2002
    Messages:
    755
    Likes Received:
    0
    sodium phosphate and sodium bicarb loading are both legal and work by buffering the lactic acid produced in your muscles

    if you plan on using sodium phosphate make sure you try it out a few weeks before an event because from memory you need fairly big doses and it might upset your stomach

    as for supply you can get it from some sports shops or look ub a lab supply place and buy analytical grade (might be pricey tho)
     
  6. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1


    sodium phosphate loading doesn't work by buffering lactate. there's two possible thoughst on how it may work, these being an increase in 2,3-BPG which theoretically would give a greater unloading of O2 at the venous end of the capillaries, and an increase in cardiac output

    see http://cyclecoach.com/articles?article=Phosphates&ext=.htm

    in some people it can cause (almost) instantaneous vomitting and/or diarohhea

    not sure where you can get it....? most lab companies (at least here in the UK wouldn't sell it to individuals.

    If you can get hold of it direct, it's dirt cheap. from memory it was UK£20 for about 12 years supply...

    it would also appear to be extremely important in getting the correct type of phosphate, as for e.g. dibasic sodium phosphate is thought to be ergolytic.

    Ric
     
  7. Duckwah

    Duckwah New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2002
    Messages:
    755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oooops my mistake, i got mixed up with the sodium hydrogen phosphate buffering system ( its been a long time since bio chem) which is a relatively unimportant blood buffering system

    some weightlifters use phosphate supps with creatine monohydrate to increase intracellular phophate levels so that the level of creatine phosphate increase but in an aerobic environment thats not going to help either

    As for supply, i can find out if lab companies will supply individuals and also where the stuff is available/which companies make it in Australia if anyone is really interested
     
  8. funknuggets

    funknuggets New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    Called Phos Fuel or something like that... Friel mentioned it in his book. I just saw that this morning...
     
  9. TTguy

    TTguy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2003
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    E-Caps does sell a tri-basic phosphate. Works like a charm. You really need to understand how to load and how to not waste the effect prior to your event.
     
  10. Celica

    Celica New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, I bought some of that from E-Caps. It's called 'Race Day Boost'. Since there's snow on the ground I won't be using it for a while. I did try a 1gram serving and found it a bit hard on the stomach, as expected. It doesn't dissolve very well and needs to be taken with a carbonated drink.
     
  11. TTguy

    TTguy New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2003
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Celica, try this: put the dose into a small water bottle with something a little acidic like orange juice or grapefruit juice and shake. It will dissolve very well like that. You are the smart one, performing some trials pre-season is the way to go.

     
  12. zaskar

    zaskar New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Messages:
    869
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is more info on it, i just ordered some for a mountain TT i have this month. i want to knock off 1 min 15 secounds off my time i hope this helps!


    RACE DAY BOOST contains one of the most potent legal ergogenics available for competition. In the most extensive study to date on the key ingredient in RACE DAY BOOST, subjects in a 40K time trial netted a whopping 8% improvement in performance time! The simple formula belies its profound effectiveness, supplying your body with what it needs to increase cellular energy production and buffer performance-robbing lactic acid. When one of your most important races of the season is four days away, a loading dose of RACE DAY BOOST can make a remarkably noticeable difference in your race performance.

    INGREDIENTS: (per teaspoon) Sodium Phosphate (tribasic) 1,000 mg
    Glutamine 500 mg


    What's In RACE DAY BOOST And What Do These Nutrients Do?

    Research strongly suggests that oral doses of Sodium Phosphate significantly contribute to raising extracellular phosphate levels. In doing so, RACE DAY BOOST will enhance the functions and performance of all three of your body's sources of energy production as well as effectively buffering lactic acid during your races.

    Our muscles have three different energy systems, the ATP-CP system, the lactic acid system, and the oxygen system. Every muscle fiber possesses all three of these systems but only one form of energy can be utilized, ATP. The purpose of the three energy systems is to supply additional ATP, which is in limited supply in the muscle. The rate at which they can supply it varies.

    The first energy system is the ATP-CP (Adenosine triphosphate and creatine phosphate) system. ATP is the immediate source of energy for muscle contraction. It releases energy very rapidly but again, it is in a very limited supply. This energy system does not need oxygen to produce energy and is capable of producing energy rapidly for short periods of time. The sodium phosphate in Race Day Boost donates its molecular structure in the re-synthesis of Creatine Phosphate (CP) and Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP) and will improve the performance of this short-term energy system.

    The pH of the blood is around 7.3 to 7.4, which is slightly alkaline. The enzymes that produce energy via the lactic acid energy system appear to function optimally in this range. The lactic acid energy system uses carbohydrates as fuel, primarily in the form of glycogen stored in the muscles. When the body breaks down muscle glycogen (known as glycogenolysis) it leads to a process called glycolysis, in which ATP can be produced. Glycolysis occurs with or without the presence of oxygen. Because the muscles don't require as much ATP during rest, glycolysis happens at a slower rate and can be sustained by the oxygen you take in (aerobic glycolysis).

    As exercise begins the rate of aerobic glycolysis increases. At a certain point, as speed increases, aerobic glycolysis becomes inadequate to support energy production. Now, more ATP is produced through anaerobic glycolysis, and through a series of chemical reactions in the cells of the muscle, the formation of lactic acid allows anaerobic glycolysis to continue. However, excess lactic acid can accumulate during high intensity efforts, increasing the concentration of hydrogen ions within the muscle cell (causing it to be too acidic) and disrupt the optimal pH of the muscle cell. Race Day Boost's phosphate salt, with its alkaline nature, will buffer excess acid in the blood and help balance and maintain this acid-alkaline base by removing excess hydrogen ions within the muscle cell. By effectively buffering lactic acid, it will improve the lactic acid energy production system.

    Finally, phosphates can aid in improving the oxygen energy system. This energy system uses primarily carbohydrates and fats to produce ATP. Although this system can't produce oxygen as rapidly as the other two systems, it does produce greater quantities of ATP and is the primary energy system of aerobic athletes. Phosphates are part of a compound found in red blood cells known as 2,3-DPG. This is an enzyme that releases oxygen from hemoglobin into the muscle cells. An increase in this compound improves the availability of oxygen to working muscles for the process of creating ATP.

    In addition to the powerhouse effects of sodium phosphate, 500 mg of glutamine per serving has been added to enhance the ability of the body to store more glycogen in the muscles, a must during the pre-event taper prior to those important races. Research also suggests glutamine elevates Human Growth Hormone (HGH) levels by up to 420%.

    BENEFITS:
    Prolonged endurance performance from increased capability of the body's three energy producing systems
    Increased performance time at anaerobic threshold
    Unsurpassed lactic acid buffering
    Enhanced glycogen storage

    HOW SUPPLIED: containers of 480 grams powder (80 servings, or 5 loading cycles).

    NOTES:
    Some RACE DAY BOOST will not dissolve but will remain in suspension; make sure you consume that part also.
    One to two weeks between loading cycles is suggested.

    Product Usage Instructions


    RACE DAY BOOST Usage Instructions

    1 teaspoon Race Day Boost in 6-8 ounces of carbohydrate beverage (sports drink, fruit juice) four times a day (total of 16 doses in the four days leading up to the event. If race is on Saturday, begin loading doses on Tuesday.
    Do not take Race Day Boost the day of the event.
    If doing a multi day event this protocol may be used:
    1 teaspoon in 6-8 ounces of carbohydrate beverage four times a day for the four days prior to the event.
    1 teaspoon in 6-8 ounces of carbohydrate beverage after race, with another dose later in the day/evening. Follow this "maintenance dose" protocol each day prior to next stage of event. Do not take Race Day Boost the day of the next stage.
     
  13. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1

    there's a few errors in the above text,

    1) phosphate loading has been shown to increase power output by 8% (in some studies, e.g., ours) but not decrease time by 8%

    2) it doesn't buffer lactic acid

    3) there's no evidence whatsoever that sodium phosphate loading improves short term power

    4) there's no evidence whatsoever that it removes excess H+ ions

    5) i'm not aware of any research showing that glutamine increases glycogen storage

    ric
     
  14. RyBike

    RyBike New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    0
    What length events would it be beneficial for? 4k pursuit and longer? 20k time trial and longer? Hour crit and a longer? Or just road races?
     
  15. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    most likely most aerobic events, e.g., anything from a 2km TT up. only events it has clearly been shown to improve (or actually tested for) are VO2max test (~15-mins), 10-mile TT, 40-km TT.

    looking at the graph from our data, you can clearly see that the first minute of the TT was improved with phosphate loading, thus would presumably increase pursuit performance http://cyclecoach.com/articles?article=Phosphates&ext=.htm


    ric
     
  16. gooders

    gooders New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    You get buy Tekno Fuel from Joe Beer's website.....£20 for 8 loads.
    http://www.jbst.com/products2.html#sodphos

    when you buy it a fact sheet is provided on loading.

    from what I've read you can only use 3-4 times per year due to the potenial adverse affect calcium depletion caused by sodium phosphate. Might be beneficial to take a low dose mineral supplement during loading.

    Also I've found it did give me the trots the first time I used it. Since I now load over two weeks. The first week slowly introduce the phosphate - 1g x 1, then a days break, then 1g x 2, then a days break....etc until you are 1g x 4. Then load for 4 days.....some can tolerate it better than others though.

    hope this helps.
     
  17. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    two things: The Tekno stuff isn't likely to work as it's dibasic sodium phosphate and there's no evidence that this works, and some evidence that it's detrimental to performance, i.e., it may cause fatigue at a cellular level.

    2) the loading protocol you suggest isn't likely to work with any phosphate, using a long, low dose protocol will most likely just cause increased urinary excretion of the phosphate.

    ric
     
  18. gooders

    gooders New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ric,

    1) Just going on recomendations and JB seems to know his stuff....but if dibasic doesn't work whats the exact type that does work?

    2) maybe I wasn't clear about the loading protocal I adopted. Low dose for 1 week for my gut to adapt, then 4 days with 1g four times per day for the actual loading......or do you recomend a higher dose for loading.

    I've read positive results about using a one off Sodium Citrate loading:

    Oopik et al. (2003) a 5km run 30" faster (2.5%) in runners completing the task in 19-mins.

    Potteiger et al. (1996) a 30km time trial was 103" faster (2.89%) in cyclists completing it in approx 59mins.

    McNaughton (1990) a 1-minute sprint had Peak power up 215w (20%) an total work up 8.5KJ (23%).


    Have you experience using this as an ergogenic aid and can it be combined with Sodium Phosphate.....or not really worth considering.

    thanks
     
  19. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    JB hasn't done any research on phosphate loading. on the hand, my cohorts and i have published and in press research on it.

    if you read the literature surrounding phosphate loading, as well as it being equivocal, it's possible to ascertain that only one type of phosphate is ergogenic. Tribasic sodium phosphate

    it's been hypothesised that longer term exposure to phosphate will just cause it to be excreted, some research suggests that this will happen quite rapidly (~ 7 days)

    we loaded 1 g, four times/day for six days

    i have no experience with citrate loading

    ric
     
  20. gooders

    gooders New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ric,

    I've just ordered 'Race Day Boost' from E-Caps which contains triabasic sodium phosphate. I'm planning a few more 10m TTs this summer. Once I've got my powertap up and running I'll do a couple of tests with and without sodium phosphate and let you know how I go.

    thanks for the advice.
     
Loading...
Loading...