Speedplay Vs. Shimano

[The Evil Twin]

You need to settle down. Everyone has a different opinion on EVERY aspect of cycling. Respect that! I believe the excess amount of float is what may have been causing the "knee wobble".

You need to respect that not all opinions are not equal, and some people are much more informed than others. Simply allowing uncritical bantering about a subject accomplishes nothing but more anecdotal examples with little relevance to the thread.
Before you consider yourself educated on a discussion, you need to know where you are getting your information from, or you will just be another person getting myths from the internet.

 

[sogood]

Riders tend to concentrate force on the down pedal, the constant force on the foot can prevent adequate blood flow.

For a masher, the force on the foot would not be constant. It's there only for the downward stroke and I doubt that's the explanation for inadequate blood flow. As you suggested, shoe fit is the more likely.

 

[xbgs351]

I have never heard of this 'problem' with Speedplays or SPD. The smallest cleat out there is the Crank Brothers Cleat, and thousands of people swear by these, including me for my MTB.

Your unique knee rocking theory only makes sense for people with no ankles. Any movement in the pedals will be dealt with by the ankle, not the knee. The knee cannot 'rock', the ankle can. You may surprised to see how much flex is in the crankarm as well.

As for the person you sold your Speedplays to, they likely mounted the pedal in the wrong position fore-aft, the same mistake you likely made. The Speedplay has a very low rise from the pedal axis compared to other pedals, this means that its position on the shoe may need to be adjusted back, or even lowering the saddle 6mm.

My knee rocking may not be common, but it sure isn't unique. Try doing one legged squats in front of a mirror standing on a solid surface. If you over-pronate, have a weak VMO and or weak hip flexors you may find that your knee may wobble or move inwards. Repeat the same process standing on something more unstable such a a piece of foam or a pillow and it's likely that the knee wobble or inward movement will increase. If your knee behaves itself for these exercises, you can try doing it with your eyes closed or try doing a one legged hop, which will also exagerate the effect. If your knee still behaves itself, you probably have good geometry as well as a strong VMO and hip flexors.

The Speedplays were professionally set up. I can't speak for the person that I sold them to.

 

[sogood]

My knee rocking may not be common, but it sure isn't unique. Try doing one legged squats in front of a mirror standing on a solid surface. If you over-pronate, have a weak VMO and or weak hip flexors you may find that your knee may wobble or move inwards. Repeat the same process standing on something more unstable such a a piece of foam or a pillow and it's likely that the knee wobble or inward movement will increase. If your knee behaves itself for these exercises, you can try doing it with your eyes closed or try doing a one legged hop, which will also exagerate the effect. If your knee still behaves itself, you probably have good geometry as well as a strong VMO and hip flexors.

The Speedplays were professionally set up. I can't speak for the person that I sold them to.

The movement isn't in the knee, and certainly not non-anatomical unless you have problems with the ligaments around your knee joint.

 

[nerdag]

My big toes go numb after a while then the numbness spreads to the ball of the foot. I've been fitted, refitted, shoes adjusted, seen a podiatrist, etc. and while it's gotten better, it still occurs and takes some of the fun out of the ride.

If it was blood flow, you'd be numb pretty much as soon as the feet start swelling, and then it would involve the whole foot, since to get numbness just around your big toe, you'd have to compress the digital arteries on both sides of the big toe that supply it.

My suspicion is that once you've ridden for a while, your feet swell up (normal), and that for some reason results in compression of the digital nerves supplying the big toe area.

You've may have already tried these, but a few suggestions are:
- try shoes one size larger;
- perhaps thinner socks;
- custom orthotic inserts;
- or changing the type of shoe (eg. to suit the width of your feet).

Maybe consulting a specialist cycling fitter may help, or failing that, see a different podiatrist, or consult a physiotherapist, orthopaedic surgeon, or consider a rheumatologist.

HTH,

n

 

[xbgs351]

The movement isn't in the knee, and certainly not non-anatomical unless you have problems with the ligaments around your knee joint.

It's not in the knee, its of the knee.

 

[nerdag]

The movement isn't in the knee, and certainly not non-anatomical unless you have problems with the ligaments around your knee joint.

Not true: the medial and lateral collateral ligaments have some laxity and stretch in them, which is normal, particularly after exercise. (aside: ligaments are the same collagenous tissue as tendons, which you stretch to prevent pulling injuries when you warm up).

Some people will have their ligaments stretch more than others, which will result in lateral rocking about the condlyar surfaces.

n

 

[xbgs351]

Not true: the medial and lateral collateral ligaments have some laxity and stretch in them, which is normal, particularly after exercise. (aside: ligaments are the same collagenous tissue as tendons, which you stretch to prevent pulling injuries when you warm up).

Some people will have their ligaments stretch more than others, which will result in lateral rocking about the condlyar surfaces.

n

I'm sure that there is movement in the ligaments when this happens, but I wouldn't put the movement solely down to lax ligaments. If that was the case, would I have seen substantial improvements off the bike from orthotics and core stability work and on the bike from a change of pedals?

I have seen some excellent sports physicians (ie works for AIS), an orthotician (ie works for VIS), pt's and a surgeon about this subject and none of them ever mentioned lax ligaments.

 

[nerdag]

I'm sure that there is movement in the ligaments when this happens, but I wouldn't put the movement solely down to lax ligaments. If that was the case, would I have seen substantial improvements off the bike from orthotics and core stability work and on the bike from a change of pedals? I have seen some excellent sports physicians (ie works for AIS), an orthotician (ie works for VIS), pt's and a surgeon about this subject and none of them ever mentioned lax ligaments.

The health workers you've seen might not have mentioned lax ligaments because they aren't relevant to your situation, and without taking a medical history or examining your knees, I can't tell you whether its relevant either.

The statements above weren't intended for your specific situation - they were to address sogood's assertion that lateral knee movement was non-anatomical, when a small amount of movement is, in fact, perfectly anatomical.

In any case, ligaments allow more movement if you either have more elasticity in your collagen, have trained in such a way so that your ligaments have more stretch, or you have had a previous collateral ligament injury that hasn't healed well. There are other causes (collagen diseases, for instance), but those are the common ones that come to mind.

n

 

[sogood]

Not true: the medial and lateral collateral ligaments have some laxity and stretch in them, which is normal, particularly after exercise. (aside: ligaments are the same collagenous tissue as tendons, which you stretch to prevent pulling injuries when you warm up).

Some people will have their ligaments stretch more than others, which will result in lateral rocking about the condlyar surfaces.

If you can visibly notice lateral movements of the knee joint in the form of "rocking knees", then the joint is due for surgery. The tiny bit of movement per your suggestion can only be detected by instruments and for all practical purposes it's non-anatonomical.

And if there is ligamental laxity or cartilage wear, then there'll be "rocking" doesn't matter what pedal you use, even when walking.

 

[nerdag]

The tiny bit of movement per your suggestion can only be detected by instruments and for all practical purposes it's non-anatonomical.

I'm not an orthopaedic surgeon, nor am I a rheumatologist, so I'm not an expert on joint pathology by any means. But I do know my anatomy pretty well (I suspect I know it better than most people, particularly on a non-medical forum), and I do stand by the above.

There are a few degrees (very low single digits) of lateral flexion at each knee joint, more so laterally than medially. It's easily detectable on physical examination, and as I've said, it's perfectly anatomical.

I examine knees a few times every week (recently as a final year medical student, and now as a junior doctor), and to diagnose a busted collateral +/- meniscus, you need to know what's normal (especially if the person is taking painkillers, which they often do if they have knee injuries).

Measuring it precisely would require the biomechanical instruments you're talking about.

Surgery isn't always the first answer. It depends on the cause of the weak ligaments, how long they've been there, and under what circumstances the "rocking" occurs. The orthopods don't always jump straight for the arthroscope. Sometimes, letting it heal spontaneously, or physiotherapy to strengthen the muscles supporting the knee joint are enough, and sometimes, they aren't.

The rocking sensation the other have described is probably due to lateral flexion slightly beyond what they normally experience. The proprioceptive nerves inside a joint that detect the joint's position are incredibly sensitive, and can detect movements that are as little as 2deg, especially when the movements are outside of the normal range where your brain doesn't expect to detect them. It may or may not occur with walking - I suspect that will depend on the condition of the rest of the joint.

You are right, on one point. If there is enough laxity to cause rocking, then it wont matter what pedal system you use.

Otherwise, sogood, I think you need to swallow a smidgen of humble pie.

n

 

[sogood]

I examine knees a few times every week (recently as a final year medical student, and now as a junior doctor), and to diagnose a busted collateral +/- meniscus, you need to know what's normal (especially if the person is taking painkillers, which they often do if they have knee injuries).

Otherwise, sogood, I think you need to swallow a smidgen of humble pie.

I suspect that I've examined a few more knees joints than you have, and by a margin counted by double digit years. I am glad to know that young doctor's physical examination skill is good in detecting lateral flexion down to a degree or two these days.

 

[xbgs351]

I think what appears to be a rocking knee is actually the ankle/foot rocking and the hip rotating.

 

[sogood]

I think what appears to be a rocking knee is actually the ankle/foot rocking and the hip rotating.

Agreed. This makes much more anatonomical sense.

 

[orbearider1212]

I used to ride the Shimano 105 pedals. I used to always have trouble clipping in at the starts of races and I would loose massive amounts of time. I switched to the speedplays in April and I absolutley love them. I use the X-2's and they are amazing. They are lightweight, really easy to get into and out of, and they last for ever. I havent had to change my cleats with speedplays yet, but with Shimanos, I would have to change cleats 3-4 times a season. Hope this helps.
Tyler Karnes

 

[sogood]

I used to ride the Shimano 105 pedals. I used to always have trouble clipping in at the starts of races and I would loose massive amounts of time.

What kind of races that the clip-in time is considered to be "massive"?

 

[orbearider1212]

What kind of races that the clip-in time is considered to be "massive"?

well with the shimano pedals I would be last off the line and about a good 50 yards back going into the first corner. With the speedplays, their double-sided and its easier to slide your foot in. Now I am usually first off the line in my races.

 

[xbgs351]

I used to ride the Shimano 105 pedals. I used to always have trouble clipping in at the starts of races and I would loose massive amounts of time. I switched to the speedplays in April and I absolutley love them. I use the X-2's and they are amazing. They are lightweight, really easy to get into and out of, and they last for ever. I havent had to change my cleats with speedplays yet, but with Shimanos, I would have to change cleats 3-4 times a season. Hope this helps.
Tyler Karnes

The Speedplays are very eay to clip into, but the Shimano pedal are far from difficult and should just require practice. I found the Shimano pedals a lot easier to clip into than the new style Time pedals.

I'm finding the opposite with the cleats. The springs used to wear down pretty fast on the Speedplays.