Spoke hole cracking - my building technique at fault ?



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Andy Dingley

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Just noticed that my first ever home-built wheel is starting to show spoke hole cracks 8-(

It's the rear on my daily commuter - unsuspended steel MTB frame, shod with (old style) Top
Tourings. Six years of near daily use, no downhilling, but a fair few kerbs to bounce over. The
rim itself is a Mavic 217 - chosen because they're supposedly robust. Hub is an LX and the
spokes are DT.

So what went wrong here ? Should I blame my beginner's wheelbuilding technique (did I overtension it
?) or should I just blithely shrug it off onto anodising ? It looks like all driver-side holes are
equally affected

Is this a reasonable rim lifetime ? There's certainly a lot left in the sidewalls.

--
Smert' spamionam
 
what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50. if necessary, share the cost with
some friends.

Andy Dingley wrote:
> Just noticed that my first ever home-built wheel is starting to show spoke hole cracks 8-(
>
> It's the rear on my daily commuter - unsuspended steel MTB frame, shod with (old style) Top
> Tourings. Six years of near daily use, no downhilling, but a fair few kerbs to bounce over. The
> rim itself is a Mavic 217 - chosen because they're supposedly robust. Hub is an LX and the
> spokes are DT.
>
> So what went wrong here ? Should I blame my beginner's wheelbuilding technique (did I overtension
> it ?) or should I just blithely shrug it off onto anodising ? It looks like all driver-side holes
> are equally affected
>
> Is this a reasonable rim lifetime ? There's certainly a lot left in the sidewalls.
 
RE/
>So what went wrong here ? Should I blame my beginner's wheelbuilding technique (did I overtension
>it ?) or should I just blithely shrug it off onto anodising ? It looks like all driver-side holes
>are equally affected

I had the same experience with three Mavic 517's used as rear wheels. All three built professionally
- each by a different builder - so somebody'd have a hard time convincing me it was the
build...especially since I broke down and bought a tensiometer to build my own and found tensions on
all 3 to be within Mavic's spec.

My current opinion? Those rims just aren't intended for somebody as heavy as I am (220).
--
PeteCresswell
 
Originally posted by Andy Dingley
Just noticed that my first ever home-built wheel is starting to show spoke hole cracks 8-(

It's the rear on my daily commuter - unsuspended steel MTB frame, shod with (old style) Top
Tourings. Six years of near daily use, no downhilling, but a fair few kerbs to bounce over. The
rim itself is a Mavic 217 - chosen because they're supposedly robust. Hub is an LX and the
spokes are DT.

So what went wrong here ? Should I blame my beginner's wheelbuilding technique (did I overtension it
?) or should I just blithely shrug it off onto anodising ? It looks like all driver-side holes are
equally affected

Is this a reasonable rim lifetime ? There's certainly a lot left in the sidewalls.

It sounds more like a problem with the rim itself than builder skill.
Since the area around all spokes on the drive side are cracking, it would be reasonable to surmise that your spoke tension was high and even.
I am riding a wheel I built with Mavic 217 6 years ago and have about 25,000 miles on it. The front rim, built at the same time developed a clicking at the rim joint due to the splice material sliding around near the joint after 12,000 miles. The rear has jumped curbs, fallen in potholes that I couldn't clear, etc. It is the silver color and still has no cracks.

Heat treating, extrusion process, application of eyelets all have tolerances. Your rim may have been out-of-tolerance and/or near the bottom end in all areas.
Is it Mavic CD hard anodized?
Mavic's quality control (or lack there of) hasn't proven to be great.
Usually I spot sample problems before the build at the joint area.
I have had good response to getting replacement via a Mavic dealer. However, after 6 years, I doubt you would have any luck on this rim.
Mavic X618 (eyelet connects both rim walls) or X517 (single eyelet) are very close in ERD and should work well with your existing spoke length. If you find a F519 and your spokes were bordering on being too long, this rim is a little wider and stronger the the X517.
 
jim beam wrote:
> what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50. if necessary, share the cost with
> some friends.
>

So you're saying we should build undertensioned and weaker wheels to make up for the poor quality of
Mavic rims?

Greg

--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons
 
jim beam <[email protected]> writes:

> what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50.

And of questionable accuracy. You seem to have a spoke tension fetish going on in these threads.
 
no, i'm saying that from my experience, mavics are right at the material limit and are not tolerant
of use out of spec.

on my own cracked 517, it cracked as i deliberately overtensioned it! the wheels i have that are
built to spec have not cracked - same type rim.

there /is/ a correleation. repeated recommendation on this forum to have spokes "as tight as
possible" do nothing for wheel stiffness and have a strongly negative impact on rim life. that's why
a tensiometer is relevant.

G.T. wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50. if necessary, share the cost with
>> some friends.
>>
>
> So you're saying we should build undertensioned and weaker wheels to make up for the poor quality
> of Mavic rims?
>
> Greg
 
jim beam wrote:
> no, i'm saying that from my experience, mavics are right at the material limit and are not
> tolerant of use out of spec.
>
> on my own cracked 517, it cracked as i deliberately overtensioned it! the wheels i have that are
> built to spec have not cracked - same type rim.
>
> there /is/ a correleation. repeated recommendation on this forum to have spokes "as tight as
> possible" do nothing for wheel stiffness and have a strongly negative impact on rim life.

Sorry, but undertensioned spokes under a heavy guy like me means constantly out of true rims.

Greg
--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons
 
trust me, i'm in the same boat at 210. but over-tension is not the way to go. i kept all my
subsequent wheels at about 1100N drive side rear & as even as possible and have not had any
further problems.

jb

G.T. wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> no, i'm saying that from my experience, mavics are right at the material limit and are not
>> tolerant of use out of spec.
>>
>> on my own cracked 517, it cracked as i deliberately overtensioned it! the wheels i have that are
>> built to spec have not cracked - same type rim.
>>
>> there /is/ a correleation. repeated recommendation on this forum to have spokes "as tight as
>> possible" do nothing for wheel stiffness and have a strongly negative impact on rim life.
>
>
> Sorry, but undertensioned spokes under a heavy guy like me means constantly out of true rims.
>
> Greg
 
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>jim beam <[email protected]> writes:
>>what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50.
>And of questionable accuracy. You seem to have a spoke tension fetish going on in these threads.

I do agree with the recommendation of the tool, though. It's very useful, as an amateur
wheelbuilder, to be able to get a decent feel for what 1000N actually is like.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:24:42 +0000, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> may have said:

>Just noticed that my first ever home-built wheel is starting to show spoke hole cracks 8-(
>
>It's the rear on my daily commuter - unsuspended steel MTB frame, shod with (old style) Top
>Tourings. Six years of near daily use, no downhilling, but a fair few kerbs to bounce over. The rim
>itself is a Mavic 217 - chosen because they're supposedly robust.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=mavic+217+crack*

Your technique is not the problem, in my opinion.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> jim beam <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50.
>
> And of questionable accuracy. You seem to have a spoke tension fetish going on in these threads.

Dear Tim,

Most mechanics share Jim's fetish for tension values. They use torque wrenches (whose accuracy is
often less than admirable) to tension all sorts of threaded fasteners that undergo far less
variation than spokes.

The more important the tension is, the more likely professional mechanics are to use torque
wrenches. Even a rough measurement tool tends to be better than the seat of our pants.

It's a shame that bicycle nipples and threaded spokes are so twisty that we use tensio-meters. Many
motorcycle mechanics use special torque wrenches to work on their beefier spokes:

http://www.mxbike.com/catalog/Fasst+Company+Spoke+Torque+Wrench

(Sorry, Jim, but it seemed like an apt spot to drag the dreaded engine-powered beasts in.)

Carl Fogel
 
Originally posted by Carl Fogel
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> jim beam <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50.
>
> And of questionable accuracy. You seem to have a spoke tension fetish going on in these threads.

Dear Tim,

Most mechanics share Jim's fetish for tension values. They use torque wrenches (whose accuracy is
often less than admirable) to tension all sorts of threaded fasteners that undergo far less
variation than spokes.

The more important the tension is, the more likely professional mechanics are to use torque
wrenches. Even a rough measurement tool tends to be better than the seat of our pants.

It's a shame that bicycle nipples and threaded spokes are so twisty that we use tensio-meters. Many
motorcycle mechanics use special torque wrenches to work on their beefier spokes:

http://www.mxbike.com/catalog/Fasst+Company+Spoke+Torque+Wrench

(Sorry, Jim, but it seemed like an apt spot to drag the dreaded engine-powered beasts in.)

Carl Fogel

Torque wrenches have their place, but I doubt that they really bo much good in any spoke applications, including motorcycles.
(however, something may be better than nothing)
Even the most accurate torque wrench has limits of accuracy.
Thread prepartion, washers, head prepartion, operating the torque wrench in it's specified range, and calibration, all have a lot to do with attaining correct "tightness".
Spoke tension has a correct value for each application. Balancing spoke tension is even more important than getting the tension to a precise number. Using a spoke tension measuring device that has reasonable resolution and precise repeatability will help insure that spokes carry their portion of the load.
Spoke alignment, removing any residual wind-up, and stress relieving are also very important to insure the spokes "stay where you put them".
 
Carl Fogel:

> Most mechanics share Jim's fetish for tension values. They use torque wrenches (whose accuracy is
> often less than admirable) to tension all sorts of threaded fasteners that undergo far less
> variation than spokes.

Not true in general, and certainly not most mechanics, auto or bike. In fact, my observation is
quite the opposite; many mechanics palce a lot of trust in their ability to "feel" the "right"
amount of tension/tightness in bolts, screws, and such things, especially when many of these
are involved.

> The more important the tension is, the more likely professional mechanics are to use torque
> wrenches.

Not convinced. Next time you have your car serviced, see how many mechs at your local garage use
torque wrenches.
 
jim beam:

> no, i'm saying that from my experience, mavics are right at the material limit and are not
> tolerant of use out of spec.
>
> on my own cracked 517, it cracked as i deliberately overtensioned it! the wheels i have that are
> built to spec have not cracked - same type rim.
>
> there /is/ a correleation. repeated recommendation on this forum to have spokes "as tight as
> possible" do nothing for wheel stiffness and have a strongly negative impact on rim life. that's
> why a tensiometer is relevant.

My experience is quite different, and I've had many Mavics. These certainly are all not "right at
the material limit", which is a misnomer; it's not the material that's faulty, it's the dimension of
the rim build.

It's doubtful you've cracked your 517 in over-tensioning spokes; in all rims I've had, tacoing
occurred at excessive spoke tension before any cracks developed. It's also highly unlikely that
Mavic rims crack due to brute force on spoke tension; fatigue failure is what these fail from.

As far as your claim that having spokes as tight as possible having a "strongly negative impact on
rim life", please explain the mechanism for this theory.
 
David Damerell:

> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> >jim beam <[email protected]> writes:
> >>what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50.
> >And of questionable accuracy. You seem to have a spoke tension fetish going on in these threads.
>
> I do agree with the recommendation of the tool, though. It's very useful, as an amateur
> wheelbuilder, to be able to get a decent feel for what 1000N actually is like.

The best use of a tensiometer is for ensuring even tensioned spokes.
 
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:20:52 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote:

>jim beam:
>
>> no, i'm saying that from my experience, mavics are right at the material limit and are not
>> tolerant of use out of spec.
>>
>> on my own cracked 517, it cracked as i deliberately overtensioned it! the wheels i have that are
>> built to spec have not cracked - same type rim.
>>
>> there /is/ a correleation. repeated recommendation on this forum to have spokes "as tight as
>> possible" do nothing for wheel stiffness and have a strongly negative impact on rim life. that's
>> why a tensiometer is relevant.
>
>My experience is quite different, and I've had many Mavics. These certainly are all not "right at
>the material limit", which is a misnomer; it's not the material that's faulty, it's the dimension
>of the rim build.

Exactly. Mavic has apparently made the rim walls thinner and thinner, so now it's possible to fail a
rim in modes we never saw before.

>It's doubtful you've cracked your 517 in over-tensioning spokes; in all rims I've had, tacoing
>occurred at excessive spoke tension before any cracks developed. It's also highly unlikely that
>Mavic rims crack due to brute force on spoke tension; fatigue failure is what these fail from.
>
>As far as your claim that having spokes as tight as possible having a "strongly negative impact on
>rim life", please explain the mechanism for this theory.

Modified Goodman curve?
 
Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Carl Fogel:
>
>
> > Most mechanics share Jim's fetish for tension values. They use torque wrenches (whose accuracy
> > is often less than admirable) to tension all sorts of threaded fasteners that undergo far less
> > variation than spokes.
>
> Not true in general, and certainly not most mechanics, auto or bike. In fact, my observation is
> quite the opposite; many mechanics palce a lot of trust in their ability to "feel" the "right"
> amount of tension/tightness in bolts, screws, and such things, especially when many of these are
> involved.
>
> > The more important the tension is, the more likely professional mechanics are to use torque
> > wrenches.
>
> Not convinced. Next time you have your car serviced, see how many mechs at your local garage use
> torque wrenches.

Dear Jose,

You may be confusing routine service folk with professional mechanics.

While the service fellows who change oil, tires, spark plugs, alternators, and even water pumps have
little use for torque wrenches, the mechanics who work on actual engines use them regularly, where
tension matters.

This is analogous to the fellows who tighten seat bolts, quick-release skewers, derailleur parts,
brake pieces, pedals, and even bottom brackets and axle cones, as opposed to people who are
tensioning spokes.

Even if you're just putting the brick-simple cylinder head back on an air-cooled single-cylinder two-
stroke (a finned plate with a dome, a spark plug hole, and some holes for the mounting studs), you
want to use a torque wrench in the prescribed pattern, which usually consists of going around all
the nuts in a criss-cross pattern at a low tension and then again at a higher tension.

The reason is that you want to press the head down as evenly as possible onto the soft metal gasket
and to have the tension close to what the engineers figured out would be a good idea when the
violent explosions underneath the head begin heating everything up and the studs expand along with
everything else. (How much the gasket is compressed also affects engine compression.)

If you get the torque too far wrong, you'll notice nasty explosive blasts where the loose head
gasket is leaking, or else even nastier blasts where the too-tight head broke a stud and the gasket
is leaking even worse.

On more complicated four-stroke engines, with water cooling, and with multiple cylinders (cars),
things become even trickier. It helps to have things over-built so that you can get away with
mistakes, but if the fellow doing actual engine work on your car (as opposed to oil changes) doesn't
keep a torque wrench handy, find another mechanic.

The same sort of logic applies to the go/no-go gauges that professional bike mechanics like Peter
Chisholm, Andrew Muzi, John Dacey, Sheldon Brown, and others use to check threads--they get better
results when they measure. And no engine mechanic wants to set valves or old-fashioned breaker
points without feeler gauges.

Think of tire pressure. We can estimate it by squeezing well enough, but most of us end up measuring
it because it gives better results than the seats of our pants.

For bicycle spokes, the usual idea is to tighten things until you notice local rim yield and then
back off a bit (or maybe a smidgen, which equals 5/4's of a bit). Helps to remember to lubricate
things first, and I forget if it's only 0.5 smidgens if the rim begins to yield when you're grabbing
the spokes to stress relieve them.

But with fewer and fewer spokes and lighter and lighter wheels, more and more people are starting to
think like real mechanics and measuring spoke tension instead of using the seats of their pants.

Since bicycle spokes and nipples are so tiny, torque readings at the nipple are unlikely to say much--
even tiny imperfections in the threads or in how the spoke seats on the rim (even when oiled) make
torque readings next to useless (think of spoke wind-up and its effect on a torque wrench). But a
tensio-meter gives a fair notion of tension and helps people build better bike wheels.

As always, the old guard disdains and even rails at the new-fangled notion. Doctors do this,
computer programmers do it, mechanics do it, even chefs do it. In Mark Twain's day, the riverboat
pilots scorned the notion of getting together in a union and sharing information about the depths,
snags, and marks needed to avoid sinking steamboats. Eventually, the insurance companies forced the
old boys to join the modern world, and fewer steamboats sank.

Any day now, I'll break down and buy a tensio-meter. I don't build wheels, but Jim Beam has
privately hinted in a gracious and tactful fashion that it's a cheap and obvious tool for anyone
interested in this kind of stuff.

Carl Fogel
 
daveornee <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Carl Fogel wrote:
> > Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<m2k72ndex6.fsf@Stella-
> > Blue.local>...
> > > jim beam <[email protected]> writes:
> > >
> > > > what's your spoke tension? a park tool to measure it is ~$50.
> > >
> > > And of questionable accuracy. You seem to have a spoke tension fetish going on in these
> > > threads.
> > Dear Tim, Most mechanics share Jim's fetish for tension values. They use torque wrenches
> > (whose accuracy is often less than admirable) to tension all sorts of threaded fasteners that
> > undergo far less variation than spokes. The more important the tension is, the more likely
> > professional mechanics are to use torque wrenches. Even a rough measurement tool tends to be
> > better than the seat of our pants. It's a shame that bicycle nipples and threaded spokes are
> > so twisty that we use tensio-meters. Many motorcycle mechanics use special torque wrenches to
> > work on their beefier spokes: http://www.mxbike.com/catalog/Fasst+Company+Spoke+Torque+Wrenchhttp://-
> > www.mxbike.com/catalog/Fasst+Company+Spoke+Torque+Wrench (Sorry, Jim, but it seemed like an
> > apt spot to drag the dreaded engine- powered beasts in.) Carl Fogel
>
>
>
> Torque wrenches have their place, but I doubt that they really bo much good in any spoke
> applications, including motorcycles. (however, something may be better than nothing) Even the most
> accurate torque wrench has limits of accuracy. Thread prepartion, washers, head prepartion,
> operating the torque wrench in it's specified range, and calibration, all have a lot to do with
> attaining correct "tightness". Spoke tension has a correct value for each application. Balancing
> spoke tension is even more important than getting the tension to a precise number. Using a spoke
> tension measuring device that has reasonable resolution and precise repeatability will help insure
> that spokes carry their portion of the load. Spoke alignment, removing any residual wind- up, and
> stress relieving are also very important to insure the spokes "stay where you put them".
>

Dear Dave,

We agree that torque wrenches probably don't have much value for thin bicycle spokes and that tensio-
meters are the right tool for even tension and fair for measuring how much the even tension
actually is.

But Honda thinks that torque wrench values work for their motorcycle spokes, which are much thicker.

(I don't know how the even thicker-spoked car wheels of British sports cars were tensioned. Perhaps
someone who worked on them will have something interesting to say.)

It may help readers unfamiliar with such things to describe the difference in spokes. My road
bicycle's 700c rear rim uses 2.0mm x 1.8mm x 2.0mm double-butted spokes, 295mmm long with a roughly
4mm hub-head and nipples about 3.5mm in a 36-spoke cross-3 pattern.

My flimsy trials motorcycle's 18-inch rim rear wheel uses
3.5mm x 3.5mm x 4.0mm hub-butted spokes, 165mm long with a roughly 7mm hub head and nipples about
6mm in a 36-spoke cross-2 pattern.

Here's a picture:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/spokes.jpg

One result of this difference in thickness is stress-relief. I doubt that anyone can stress relieve
thick, short motorcycle spokes by simply grabbing a pair and squeezing them--they don't budge when
tensioned. The bicycle method just doesn't seem to be part of motorcycle wheel-building. Nor does
our familiar problem of wind-up.

With such strong, thick spoke parts, Honda simply specifies a range of torque values. The range may
be comparable to the wide range of bicycle wheel manufacturer tension recommendations, it may have
its problems, but that's how the Honda engineers do it.

Carl Fogel
 
<SNIP>
It may help readers unfamiliar with such things to describe the difference in spokes. My road
bicycle's 700c rear rim uses 2.0mm x 1.8mm x 2.0mm double-butted spokes, 295mmm long with a roughly
4mm hub-head and nipples about 3.5mm in a 36-spoke cross-3 pattern.

My flimsy trials motorcycle's 18-inch rim rear wheel uses
3.5mm x 3.5mm x 4.0mm hub-butted spokes, 165mm long with a roughly 7mm hub head and nipples about
6mm in a 36-spoke cross-2 pattern.

Here's a picture:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/spokes.jpg

One result of this difference in thickness is stress-relief. I doubt that anyone can stress relieve
thick, short motorcycle spokes by simply grabbing a pair and squeezing them--they don't budge when
tensioned. The bicycle method just doesn't seem to be part of motorcycle wheel-building. Nor does
our familiar problem of wind-up.

With such strong, thick spoke parts, Honda simply specifies a range of torque values. The range may
be comparable to the wide range of bicycle wheel manufacturer tension recommendations, it may have
its problems, but that's how the Honda engineers do it.

Carl Fogel [/B][/QUOTE]

Honda engineers may do it, but that doesn't make the procedure correct. Even exact matching of torque readings of a properly applied accurate torque wrench won't necessisarily give you even tension or a true wheel. As I said before, it is better than nothing. Plucking the spokes and matching their tones as better than the torque wrench method.
I agree that Jobst Brandt's "squeezing pairs" method doesn't work for stress relieving motorcycle spokes, at least not with my hands. However, a variant of what Sheldon Brown shows, does work. I used a crow bar near the crossings.
The times I've worked on motorcycle wheels are few, but when I did, the shop had a spoke tension gague that looked like a Hozan unit I have seen and used in a few bike shops.
Dynamic mechanical response of spokes in any wheel depend on their tension, not the torque applied to the nipple. If you get even spoke tension by using a torque wrench, that is great. I saw a demonstration once, in motorcycle a shop I visited, where the torques matched precisely, but the tension varied by over 25%
 
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