Spoke line correction

[Ron Ruff]

On Feb 20, 11:16 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Try signing out of your google groups posting account
> and repeating the search in case there's some kind of
> persistent cookie.

Tried it on my wife's computer without even signing in... same deal.
Tried Firefox instead of Opera... same thing.

> Try clicking on the "View profile" link on one of your
> posts and looking at the bottom where it lets you click
> on posts from a given month.

Tried that too. It says I have a lot of posts in Dec and Jan, but if I
click on Dec it says there aren't any. If I click on Jan it will only
show the ones after the 25th.

Searching other google groups shows the same Oct 15-Jan 25 hole. I
wouldn't think it was weird if it was happening to everybody else...
but why just me? And Rod Serling makes his entrance...

I don't suppose there is anyone at google I could ask?

 

[[email protected]]

On 20 Feb 2007 23:16:34 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Feb 20, 11:16 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> Try signing out of your google groups posting account
>> and repeating the search in case there's some kind of
>> persistent cookie.
>
>Tried it on my wife's computer without even signing in... same deal.
>Tried Firefox instead of Opera... same thing.
>
>> Try clicking on the "View profile" link on one of your
>> posts and looking at the bottom where it lets you click
>> on posts from a given month.
>
>Tried that too. It says I have a lot of posts in Dec and Jan, but if I
>click on Dec it says there aren't any. If I click on Jan it will only
>show the ones after the 25th.
>
>Searching other google groups shows the same Oct 15-Jan 25 hole. I
>wouldn't think it was weird if it was happening to everybody else...
>but why just me? And Rod Serling makes his entrance...
>
>I don't suppose there is anyone at google I could ask?

Dear Ron,

Here's one well-hidden contact/help-me page:

http://groups.google.com/support/bin/request.py

You can try asking them why you can't see RBT posts that other posters
can see for a specific date range.

I don't know whether you should call it a technical problem or insist
that you're being abused.

When I click on your profile, your month-by-month posting totals show
up, 1 in Oct, none in Nov, 69 in December, 61 in January. Clicking on
December's 69 posts brings them up with no problem.

What's really weird is that whatever's wrong also affects your wife's
computer. That would seem to eliminate a lot of possible problems.

Do both systems use the same browser?

Maybe you used both systems the same day and have the same weird
cookie or configuration file on both systems?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 20, 9:43 pm, [email protected] wrote:
[...]
>> Steel is steel, regardless of what brand, so there can't be any
>> difference other than wire diameter. They all have the same elastic
>> modulus.
>
> Having built with Sapim for many years then with the opportunity to
> build a wheel with DT I did notice a different 'feel'. The DT's did
> seem more elastic. I don't understand how you say they could be the
> same elastic modulus, would different alloying elements make for
> different characteristics?

Were the Sapim and DT spokes the same gauge and buttedness?

> I've since found the previous lengthy threads on the stress related
> discussions so would not want to start another. I've spent most of the
> evening reading through them. Good stuff!
>
> I've just sourced another cheap Shimano hub from ebay because I want
> to explore the spoke line correction a little more. I'll manually
> correct by thumb some spokes and leave the rest un modified then build
> up as normal then disassemble to examine the resulting bend angles to
> see if they are identical and so negate the additional operation of
> manually bending which as you said needs doing carefully.

Let us know what you find. I built a wheel recently with a Shimano hub
(Deore XT) and DT spokes, and the spoke line didn't seem to need
correcting. Before I'd put much tension into the spokes, they seemed to
be sitting just about right anyway, so I left them alone. Of course they
may have bent a bit, but the line wasn't obviously wrong and there
wasn't the temptation to manually correct it.

 

[[email protected]]

On 20 Feb 2007 23:16:34 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Feb 20, 11:16 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> Try signing out of your google groups posting account
>> and repeating the search in case there's some kind of
>> persistent cookie.
>
>Tried it on my wife's computer without even signing in... same deal.
>Tried Firefox instead of Opera... same thing.
>
>> Try clicking on the "View profile" link on one of your
>> posts and looking at the bottom where it lets you click
>> on posts from a given month.
>
>Tried that too. It says I have a lot of posts in Dec and Jan, but if I
>click on Dec it says there aren't any. If I click on Jan it will only
>show the ones after the 25th.
>
>Searching other google groups shows the same Oct 15-Jan 25 hole. I
>wouldn't think it was weird if it was happening to everybody else...
>but why just me? And Rod Serling makes his entrance...
>
>I don't suppose there is anyone at google I could ask?

Dear Ron,

Maybe there's something goofy in your Google account's new
search-history function?

http://www.google.com/support/accounts/bin/topic.py?topic=10470&hl=en

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Andrew Lee]

Ron Ruff wrote:
> A little more on topic, I just received some CX-Rays today, and was
> surprised at the elbow shape. It's long compared to the 2.0mm
> Wheelsmith and DT spokes that I have (not a lot but noticable), and
> closer to 90 degrees as well. Consequently the spoke hangs out farther
> from the hub flange (Dura Ace 7700 and Ultegra 6500). I would have
> gotten spoke washers if I'd known. The WS AE15s (1.8mm ends) have a
> short "J", and the inside of the bend hugs the flange quite well...
> seems like the best fit of them all.

I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day but
haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the Lasers
too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't look good to
me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes with Deore LX
hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see what I think
then...

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2007 19:29:05 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>On Feb 20, 7:30 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>>> Before this post, I got 184 results, with several in early January, in
>>> December, and in November on the first two pages:
>>
>>Thanks for helping... but I get 157 posts and nothing from Oct 3 to
>>Jan 26.
>
> Dear Ron,
>
> I'm utterly baffled.
>
> I even tried strict filtering in my Google profile's preferences, but
> ignoring X-rated posts only reduced the hits from 184 to 179, with
> posts still appearing in the Oct-Jan period.
>
> Maybe someone who knows will take pity on us and reveal whatever
> obvious explanation prevents you from finding November and December
> posts in RBT through Google Groups.

It could be related to location. Because of where he is in the country
or world, Ron may get routed to a different computer, that is supposed
to behave the same as the one you get but for some reason temporarily
isn't.

I couldn't find the thread either by searching, but the link you
provided worked. It's possible part of the search index was missing,
although the actual data was still available.

 

[Andrew Lee]

Andrew Lee wrote:
> I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
> look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day
> but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the
> Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't look
> good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes with
> Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see what
> I think then...

Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before tensioning and
before spoke line correction:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Feb 21, 3:17 am, "Andrew Lee" <whatsupandrewathotmaildotcom> wrote:

> I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
> look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day but
> haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the Lasers
> too.

Now maybe we know why Sapim's bladed spokes last longer than their
round ones in testing.

Judging from their FAQ, they may not know this is a bad thing... DT
didn't either several years ago until many people complained.

BTW, your photo seems to be clipped off at the top... or is it just
me?

To Carl and Ben... now the "hole" is actually growing! Today it
extends from Oct 15 to Feb 4.... yesterday it was Oct 15 to Jan 25.

 

[[email protected]]

On Feb 21, 5:45 am, "Andrew Lee" <whatsupandrewathotmaildotcom> wrote:
> Andrew Lee wrote:
> > I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
> > look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day
> > but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the
> > Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't look
> > good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes with
> > Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see what
> > I think then...
>
> Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before tensioning and
> before spoke line correction:
>
> http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg


It may just be reflection, but the spoke at the center of the photo
with head out (towards skewer) looks like it has chevrons along the OD
of the bend.

 

[daveornee]

Andrew Lee wrote:
> I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
> look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day
> but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the
> Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't look
> good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes with
> Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see what
> I think then...

Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before tensioning and
before spoke line correction:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg

http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02210002ls0.jpg
Dura Ace 7700 front with 3X Sapim Laser

http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02210003lw1.jpg
Campy Record front with 3X Sapim Laser

Both after tensioning, spoke line correction, and stabilizing the wheels

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Feb 21, 10:24 am, daveornee <daveornee.2md...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Both after tensioning, spoke line correcting, and stabilizing the
> wheels.

The Campy hub looks better, but maybe it is the angle... but on the DA
hub it looks like the elbows are sticking out pretty far. Seems better
to me to have the elbows too short (and just bend them around the hub)
rather than too long, but I'm sure opinions will differ on that.

 

[Andrew Lee]

Ron Ruff wrote:
>> I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
>> look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day
>> but
>> haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the Lasers
>> too.
>
> Now maybe we know why Sapim's bladed spokes last longer than their
> round ones in testing.

The Lasers weigh the same as the CX-Rays and both have 2.0 ends, so I don't
see that this is the difference.

> Judging from their FAQ, they may not know this is a bad thing... DT
> didn't either several years ago until many people complained.
>
> BTW, your photo seems to be clipped off at the top... or is it just
> me?

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

 

[daveornee]

On Feb 21, 10:24 am, daveornee <daveornee.2md...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Both after tensioning, spoke line correcting, and stabilizing the
> wheels.

The Campy hub looks better, but maybe it is the angle... but on the DA
hub it looks like the elbows are sticking out pretty far. Seems better
to me to have the elbows too short (and just bend them around the hub)
rather than too long, but I'm sure opinions will differ on that.

I have never had "too short" an elbow, but I think that would not be great either. It would make lacing the wheel very difficult.
I welcome other comments on the images & interpretations.

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:38:13 -0600, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 20 Feb 2007 19:29:05 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 20, 7:30 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> Before this post, I got 184 results, with several in early January, in
>>>> December, and in November on the first two pages:
>>>
>>>Thanks for helping... but I get 157 posts and nothing from Oct 3 to
>>>Jan 26.
>>
>> Dear Ron,
>>
>> I'm utterly baffled.
>>
>> I even tried strict filtering in my Google profile's preferences, but
>> ignoring X-rated posts only reduced the hits from 184 to 179, with
>> posts still appearing in the Oct-Jan period.
>>
>> Maybe someone who knows will take pity on us and reveal whatever
>> obvious explanation prevents you from finding November and December
>> posts in RBT through Google Groups.
>
>It could be related to location. Because of where he is in the country
>or world, Ron may get routed to a different computer, that is supposed
>to behave the same as the one you get but for some reason temporarily
>isn't.
>
>I couldn't find the thread either by searching, but the link you
>provided worked. It's possible part of the search index was missing,
>although the actual data was still available.

Dear Ben,

A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
quick search that fall within the suspect months.

Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.

If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

On 21 Feb 2007 08:14:09 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

[snip]

>To Carl and Ben... now the "hole" is actually growing! Today it
>extends from Oct 15 to Feb 4.... yesterday it was Oct 15 to Jan 25.

Dear Ron,

I can search for and find RBT posts in Google Groups on Jan 31.

Ben is wondering if our searches go to geographically different index
servers, which is the most plausible theory I've seen so far.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
> fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
> date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
> quick search that fall within the suspect months.
>
> Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.
>
> If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.

I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
to the east of the Mississippi.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
dated 27 Sep 2006.

This is what my screen looks like:

http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:50:00 -0600, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>[...]
>> A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
>> fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
>> date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
>> quick search that fall within the suspect months.
>>
>> Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.
>>
>> If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.
>
>I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
>to the east of the Mississippi.
>
>http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&
>
>I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
>dated 27 Sep 2006.
>
>This is what my screen looks like:
>
>http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

Dear Ben,

I clicked on your UK google version link above and got 27 hits, 2 in
January and 4 in December:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

I get the same 27 hits with plain groups.google.com:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec....oup=rec.bicycles.tech&q=spoke+line+correction

When I click on Ron's profile in either site, I get the same
month-by-month posting totals and can see his January and December
posts.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:50:00 -0600, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
>>I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
>>to the east of the Mississippi.
>>
>>http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&
>>
>>I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
>>dated 27 Sep 2006.
>>
>>This is what my screen looks like:
>>
>>http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png
>
> Dear Ben,
>
> I clicked on your UK google version link above and got 27 hits, 2 in
> January and 4 in December:
>
> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

Interesting, I tried exactly that url again, and got the same 20 hits I
got before with nothing between 27 Sep 2006 and 3 Feb 2007.

> I get the same 27 hits with plain groups.google.com:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec....oup=rec.bicycles.tech&q=spoke+line+correction

And I get just the same 20 hits and the same gap between Sep and Feb,
with this url as well.

Another experiment you could try is to start with http://64.233.179.104,
go to "Groups" and repeat the search. That might take you to the same
server that the internet takes me to, so perhaps you will see the
missing posts. You may just get redirected to your usual server though.

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:19:55 -0600, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:50:00 -0600, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>[...]
>>>I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
>>>to the east of the Mississippi.
>>>
>>>http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&
>>>
>>>I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
>>>dated 27 Sep 2006.
>>>
>>>This is what my screen looks like:
>>>
>>>http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png
>>
>> Dear Ben,
>>
>> I clicked on your UK google version link above and got 27 hits, 2 in
>> January and 4 in December:
>>
>> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&
>
>Interesting, I tried exactly that url again, and got the same 20 hits I
>got before with nothing between 27 Sep 2006 and 3 Feb 2007.
>
>> I get the same 27 hits with plain groups.google.com:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec....oup=rec.bicycles.tech&q=spoke+line+correction
>
>And I get just the same 20 hits and the same gap between Sep and Feb,
>with this url as well.
>
>Another experiment you could try is to start with http://64.233.179.104,
>go to "Groups" and repeat the search. That might take you to the same
>server that the internet takes me to, so perhaps you will see the
>missing posts. You may just get redirected to your usual server though.

Dear Ben,

I tried the numeric address, went to RBT, and got the same 27 hits for
spoke line correction.

But I end up in groups.google.com, not groups.google.co.uk.

When I force it to groups.google.co.uk, I still get the same 27 hits
with hits in January and December:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...oup=rec.bicycles.tech&q=spoke+line+correction

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:50:00 -0600, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>[...]
>> A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
>> fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
>> date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
>> quick search that fall within the suspect months.
>>
>> Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.
>>
>> If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.
>
>I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
>to the east of the Mississippi.
>
>http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&
>
>I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
>dated 27 Sep 2006.
>
>This is what my screen looks like:
>
>http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

Dear Ben,

Since we see different things when we look with the search engine, I'm
beginning to wonder if you and Ron will disappear, along with Google
Groups, if I can find a propeller to stick my hand into:

http://tzone.the-croc.com/tzeplist/arrival.html

Cheers,

Mr. Sheckly