Spoke line correction

[A Muzi]

>> Andrew Lee wrote:
>>> I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I
>> took a
>>> look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other
>> day
>>> but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on
>> the
>>> Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't
>> look
>>> good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes
>> with
>>> Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see
>> what
>>> I think then...

> Andrew Lee Wrote:
>> Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before
>> tensioning and
>> before spoke line correction:
>> http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg

daveornee wrote:
> http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02210002ls0.jpg
> Dura Ace 7700 front with 3X Sapim Laser
> http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02210003lw1.jpg
> Campy Record front with 3X Sapim Laser
> Both after tensioning, spoke line correcting, and stabilizing the
> wheels.

Two shots of a wheel with Asahi 14-16-14 SS in a Chorus front:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPOXFLNG.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:50:00 -0600, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>[...]
>> A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
>> fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
>> date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
>> quick search that fall within the suspect months.
>>
>> Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.
>>
>> If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.
>
>I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
>to the east of the Mississippi.
>
>http://groups.google.co.uk/group/re...poke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&
>
>I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
>dated 27 Sep 2006.
>
>This is what my screen looks like:
>
>http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

Dear Ben,

What do you get if you sort the main topic list by first message and
page back? My page starts with 1-30 of 92827:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/topics?tsc=2

Does the October-January hole appear when you look at things this way?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-02-22, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> Dear Ben,
>
> What do you get if you sort the main topic list by first message and
> page back? My page starts with 1-30 of 92827:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/topics?tsc=2

It's all there, 92827 messages.

> Does the October-January hole appear when you look at things this way?

No hole.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/topics?start=670&sa=N
shows threads from Dec 5 to Dec 3 including "I fixed a broken spoke".

It seems the messages are all there, but that part of the search index
is missing.

 

[Ben C]

On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> I tried the numeric address, went to RBT, and got the same 27 hits for
> spoke line correction.
>
> But I end up in groups.google.com, not groups.google.co.uk.

It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

I wasn't sure whether using the numeric address would make any
difference because many things can happen behind the scenes. Google know
who you are and where you're connecting from and are not easily fooled.

A few times we have been aghast by the accuracy of your searches and you
have insisted modestly that finding things with Google is "as easy as
finding ice cream on a rug with a basset hound". I don't mean to
discredit your reputation, but what if all along you've been connecting
to a different and more powerful Google from the rest of us?

 

[daveornee]

>> Andrew Lee wrote:
>>> I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I
>> took a
>>> look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other
>> day
>>> but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on
>> the
>>> Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't
>> look
>>> good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes
>> with
>>> Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see
>> what
>>> I think then...

> Andrew Lee Wrote:
>> Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before
>> tensioning and
>> before spoke line correction:
>> http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg

daveornee wrote:
> http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02210002ls0.jpg
> Dura Ace 7700 front with 3X Sapim Laser
> http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02210003lw1.jpg
> Campy Record front with 3X Sapim Laser
> Both after tensioning, spoke line correcting, and stabilizing the
> wheels.

Two shots of a wheel with Asahi 14-16-14 SS in a Chorus front:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPOXFLNG.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew,
I only can view on shot of the wheel, but it is refreshing that your posting is related to the topic.
Your build (or whoever did it) looks good to me.
What are your comments about the photographs I posted?

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Feb 21, 11:22 am, daveornee <daveornee.2md...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> I have never had "too short" an elbow, but I think that would not be
> great either. It would make lacing the wheel very difficult.
> I welcome other comments on the images & interpretations.

What I meant was that the J can require some extra force to align it.
I guess this makes it a little harder to build, but it seems to give
the J much better support. The WS AE15s I have seem to hug the edge of
the flange quite well with the inner radius of the bend. The J is
clearly greater than 90 degrees, it is short, and the spoke is 1.8mm
so it can easily sit at an angle in the hub hole.

Dave, you've been using Sapim spokes for sometime now... yes? Have you
noticed any change in the shape and length of the J? Have you used
spoke head washers at all?

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 02:19:11 -0600, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2007-02-21, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>[...]
>> I tried the numeric address, went to RBT, and got the same 27 hits for
>> spoke line correction.
>>
>> But I end up in groups.google.com, not groups.google.co.uk.
>
>It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.
>
>I wasn't sure whether using the numeric address would make any
>difference because many things can happen behind the scenes. Google know
>who you are and where you're connecting from and are not easily fooled.
>
>A few times we have been aghast by the accuracy of your searches and you
>have insisted modestly that finding things with Google is "as easy as
>finding ice cream on a rug with a basset hound". I don't mean to
>discredit your reputation, but what if all along you've been connecting
>to a different and more powerful Google from the rest of us?

Dear Ben,

It helps to be a Stonecutter . . .

Homer: [pulls out a decal] What's this?
Lenny: You put that sticker on your car so you won't get any tickets.
And this other one keeps paramedics from stealing your wallet
while they're working on you.
Carl: Oh, and don't bother calling 911 any more...here's the _real_
number. [hands him a card with "912"]

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F09.html

Cheers,

Number Fourteen

 

[daveornee]

On Feb 21, 11:22 am, daveornee <daveornee.2md...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> I have never had "too short" an elbow, but I think that would not be
> great either. It would make lacing the wheel very difficult.
> I welcome other comments on the images & interpretations.

What I meant was that the J can require some extra force to align it.
I guess this makes it a little harder to build, but it seems to give
the J much better support. The WS AE15s I have seem to hug the edge of
the flange quite well with the inner radius of the bend. The J is
clearly greater than 90 degrees, it is short, and the spoke is 1.8mm
so it can easily sit at an angle in the hub hole.

Dave, you've been using Sapim spokes for sometime now... yes? Have you
noticed any change in the shape and length of the J? Have you used
spoke head washers at all?

Spoke support via the J hugging the edge of the flange is nice. However, it may only be obtained, in most cases, on spokes with the heads to the inside the flange.
I don't measure either the j-bend angle or the disance from head to bend. The only spokes I have ever sensed that were way out of range..... and I experienced spoke breakage, were a couple of batches from DT.
The variances I have seen with Sapim have been small, usually in the range that I would juudge to be ~0.1 mm delta. Most important to note: I built over 1,000 wheels using Sapim (mostly Race 14/15 DB) spokes and have never had a report of a broken spoke. We ride Sapim spokes on all the "fleet" here, including road, mountain, tandem, and touring bicycles. I have had no troubles of any kind with Sapim.
I have had more than a handful of problems with Wheelsmith spokes. They have had short fatigue life (under 10,000 miles on a 32H 3X front wheel) and in one batch they continued to stretch past the point of use.
The only times I have had bad experiences with DT were the very long "elbow" (distance from head to j-bend) spokes. I had a couple of batches of them with this difficulty in both Competition and Alpine III spokes.
I tried spoke washers with these batches, but still had breakage problems with them. DT would not own up to the problems or take back the product. It was then that I switched to Sapim.
I do not use spoke washers on any of my wheels built with Sapim spokes. I am not against using them, but I haven't found the need to do so.

 

[A Muzi]

> >>> Andrew Lee wrote:
>>>>> I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I
>>>> took a
>>>>> look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the
>> other day
>>>>> but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on
>>>> the
>>>>> Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they
>> don't look
>>>>> good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith
>> spokes with
>>>>> Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and
>> see what I think then...

>>> Andrew Lee Wrote:
>>>> Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before
>>>> tensioning and before spoke line correction:
>>>> http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg

>> daveornee wrote:
>>> http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02210002ls0.jpg
>>> Dura Ace 7700 front with 3X Sapim Laser
>>> http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02210003lw1.jpg
>>> Campy Record front with 3X Sapim Laser
>>> Both after tensioning, spoke line correcting, and stabilizing the
>>> wheels.

> A Muzi Wrote:
>> Two shots of a wheel with Asahi 14-16-14 SS in a Chorus front:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/SPOXFLNG.JPG

daveornee wrote:
> I only can view on shot of the wheel, but it is refreshing that your
> posting is related to the topic.
> Your build (or whoever did it) looks good to me.
> What are your comments about the photographs I posted?

I added a photo with two views of the same flange [I spliced 2 shots
together, one above, one below] built with Asahi 14-16-14 for
comparison. Then I compared the photos and couldn't cull any wisdom
from them. Your wheel looks like ours.

The OP photo was "untensioned". It may well have been fine after the
wheel was actually built.
??
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[daveornee]

> >>> Andrew Lee wrote:[color=blue<SNIP>
I added a photo with two views of the same flange [I spliced 2 shots
together, one above, one below] built with Asahi 14-16-14 for
comparison. Then I compared the photos and couldn't cull any wisdom
from them. Your wheel looks like ours.

The OP photo was "untensioned". It may well have been fine after the
wheel was actually built.
??
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew,
Got it! I was working on another project when I first looked at your "two" images sandwiched together. Duh!

I think Ron Ruff's view is that the spoke should hug the hub flange as it exits the hole. In your images the spokes look to do just that.... on the ones with heads "inside" the hub.

The Sapim Laser 14/17 DB spokes used in my photographs have a very small gap as they exit the hub holes... before resting against the hub flange.... nearer to the outer edge.
You can see a little bit of light in the openings... especially on the Dura Ace version.

It also sounds like at least one batch of Wheelsmith spokes that Ron Ruff has are fabricated to "complete the bend yourself" arrangement.

 

[Ron Ruff]

daveornee wrote:
> I built over 1,000 wheels using Sapim (mostly Race 14/15 DB) spokes and
> have never had a report of a broken spoke. We ride Sapim spokes on all
> the "fleet" here, including road, mountain, tandem, and touring
> bicycles. I have had no troubles of any kind with Sapim.

Well, in that case I'm going to quit worrying about it!

Also, do you "improve the spoke line" by bending the spoke at the
flange so that it heads straight for the rim? I'm thinking the Sapims
I have probably don't need it. There was a big discussion about this a
little while back... I don't remember if you were involved.

> I have had more than a handful of problems with Wheelsmith spokes.

I haven't built so many wheels, but the WS spokes I've used have been
fine. I wonder if the quality suffered when they moved production from
Japan to Montana ~'96. Now they've been bought by Hayes, and I heard a
rumor that they will be made in China now (like almost everything
else).

The only issue I have is the newer AE15s have a rough finish in the
bladed part. I'm pretty sure that the ones I used over a decade ago
were very smooth.

 

[daveornee]

daveornee wrote:
> I built over 1,000 wheels using Sapim (mostly Race 14/15 DB) spokes and
> have never had a report of a broken spoke. We ride Sapim spokes on all
> the "fleet" here, including road, mountain, tandem, and touring
> bicycles. I have had no troubles of any kind with Sapim.

Well, in that case I'm going to quit worrying about it!

Also, do you "improve the spoke line" by bending the spoke at the
flange so that it heads straight for the rim? I'm thinking the Sapims
I have probably don't need it. There was a big discussion about this a
little while back... I don't remember if you were involved.

> I have had more than a handful of problems with Wheelsmith spokes.

I haven't built so many wheels, but the WS spokes I've used have been
fine. I wonder if the quality suffered when they moved production from
Japan to Montana ~'96. Now they've been bought by Hayes, and I heard a
rumor that they will be made in China now (like almost everything
else).

The only issue I have is the newer AE15s have a rough finish in the
bladed part. I'm pretty sure that the ones I used over a decade ago
were very smooth.

My spoke line improvement provides nearly "the spoke at the
flange so that it heads straight for the rim".... the nearly part is due to the spoke crossing. Some rim holes don't allow the nipple to rotate freely enough to have the spoke point exactly as I want; in those cases I make the needed correction at the top of the nipple.

Some of the Wheelsmith spoke finish I have seen (and still have on my stand-by super-stiff touring wheels with DH13 spokes on Phil Wood hubs) is better than any other spokes I have seen ..... in the finish category.