Spoke Prep - cheap replacement



Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Jobst-<< Speaking of spoke windup, have you seen or used the Twist Resist
>>tool? It's mentioned on the American Classic website:

>
>
>>http://www.amclassic.com/Tech_Truing.html

>
>
>>It's a gripper tool that holds the spoke while the nipple is being
>>tightened. Seems it would be useful when building with very thin
>>spokes. Conceptually, it should eliminate the need to back-twist
>>the nipple to take out the spoke windup.

>
>
> Just looking at the picture makes me cringe. Beside the cost, this
> turns a one-handed job into a two-handed one, and doesn't even
> guarantee no twist depending on how tight the gripper is applied.
> Long ago, when building 24-spoke track wheels with 1.5-1.8mm spokes
> (essentially Revolution), I tried holding spokes with pliers with
> serrated jaws and discovered how hard it is to prevent twist. Even
> smooth tipped ViseGrip pliers didn't do the trick. >><BR><BR>



I say, perhaps ya ought to actually try one instead of speculating when looking
at a picture. It DOES work, no problem at all, particularly for straight pull
spokes that rotate at the hub.

Including Rev spokes to high tension.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
S

Sandy

Guest
"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de :
news:[email protected]
> Jobst
>> Just looking at the picture makes me cringe.

>
> I say, perhaps ya ought to actually try one instead of speculating when
> looking
> at a picture. It DOES work, no problem at all, particularly for straight
> pull
> spokes that rotate at the hub.
>
> Including Rev spokes to high tension.


Peter - Stop it ! He prefers to guess from the wealth of myth and lore he
has created. Not nice kicking a guy when he's down. :)

> Peter Chisholm



--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.
 
T

Terry Morse

Guest
(Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote:

> It DOES work, no problem at all, particularly for straight pull
> spokes that rotate at the hub.
>
> Including Rev spokes to high tension.


That's good to read. I'm thinking of buying a heavily discounted
bike that has DT Revolution spokes. If I get it, the first thing
I'll do is re-tension the wheels. It looks like the Twist Resist
will come in handy for that task. The thinnest spokes I've used
before were 14/15/14.

Thanks.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
 
P

Peter Cole

Guest
<[email protected]> wrote
>
> Along with this, they must also devise a tensiometer that can tell
> when the wheel is tight enough. Spoke nipple torque is not a good
> measure of tension. That problem is of course as important as the
> first. This shows that after my yearly harangues about this, they
> noticed they had a problem that customers knew about all along, that
> their machine built wheels needed SpokePrep so to speak.
>
> http://www.hollandmechanics.com/
>
> High tension is where it's at!


Interesting to look at the video clips of their machines in action. Do you
think their "stabilizer" machine is actually doing some stress relieving?
 
Mark Hickey writes:

>> If you use brass spoke nipples and stainless spokes the only
>> seizing possible would be with carefully degreased parts, something
>> not easily accomplished. Just the same, oiling the threads before
>> building is useful in two ways. It assists in tensioning for
>> minimal spoke twist and it prevents fine grit from washing into the
>> interface on wet roads. Fine grit is the only thing that might
>> make the threads bind for subsequent reuse or truing.


> This (to me) is the best "feature" of spoke prep (though I use
> linseed oil for my own wheels). I have always assumed that the
> tacky final state of the "prep" will be better than oil at
> preventing the ingestion of grit into the spoke/nipple threads,
> simply because it takes up much of the space between the two
> surfaces.


> Is this a bad assumption on my part?


I don't think it merits the use of an extra preparation to achieve
what motor oil will do, considering that motor oil or a substitute is
needed to lubricate the spoke nipple to rim interface anyway. Oil
works well in preventing grit intrusion because it cakes up with road
dust in a few miles to fill any gap.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Johnny Walker writes:

>>>> Just the same, oiling the threads before building is useful in
>>>> two ways. It assists in tensioning for minimal spoke twist and
>>>> it prevents fine grit from washing into the interface on wet
>>>> roads.


>>> Speaking of spoke windup, have you seen or used the Twist Resist
>>> tool? It's mentioned on the American Classic website:


http://www.amclassic.com/Tech_Truing.html

>>> It's a gripper tool that holds the spoke while the nipple is being
>>> tightened. Seems it would be useful when building with very thin
>>> spokes. Conceptually, it should eliminate the need to back-twist
>>> the nipple to take out the spoke windup.


>> Just looking at the picture makes me cringe. Beside the cost, this
>> turns a one-handed job into a two-handed one, and doesn't even
>> guarantee no twist depending on how tight the gripper is applied.
>> Long ago, when building 24-spoke track wheels with 1.5-1.8mm spokes
>> (essentially Revolution), I tried holding spokes with pliers with
>> serrated jaws and discovered how hard it is to prevent twist. Even
>> smooth tipped ViseGrip pliers didn't do the trick.


>> I found that unloading the spoke to be adjusted a better method,
>> and with a rigid truing stand this is easily done. Since one
>> usually holds the wheel in position with the other hand, that hand
>> can be used to displace the rim toward the side from which the
>> spoke approaches. This is easily done without any any special
>> maneuvers. In contrast, imagine how hard it would be to grip the
>> spoke near the nipple with Twist-resist and turn the nipple with a
>> spoke wrench.


>> As I mentioned, this year at InterBike, an engineer from Holland
>> Mechanics wheel building machines called me over and asked me to
>> tell him once more about making machine built wheels as good as
>> hand built ones. He wrote it down and said that this time they
>> were going to do something about it. My suggestion was to include
>> a pneumatic piston that radially presses against the rim at the
>> spoke being adjusted so that its nipple can be turned freely
>> regardless of tension.


>> Along with this, they must also devise a tensiometer that can tell
>> when the wheel is tight enough. Spoke nipple torque is not a good
>> measure of tension. That problem is of course as important as the
>> first. This shows that after my yearly harangues about this, they
>> noticed they had a problem that customers knew about all along,
>> that their machine built wheels needed SpokePrep so to speak.


>> http://www.hollandmechanics.com/


>> High tension is where it's at!


> Where does the HM web site say that?


I said that in the line directly above as you may notice. As I
pointed out, HM did not recognize that machine built wheels have a bad
reputation primarily because they were too loose, something that has
only gotten worse with low spoke count wheels.

> http://www.hollandmechanics.com/f3/hmtoday/archive/HMToday_2004.pdf


> refers to paying more attention to tension consistency, lube
> application, nipple washers, nipple lock, etc, but does not endorse
> higher tension.


I'm glad you noticed. As I said, I'm interested in what they will
bring to InterBike next year and whether they will correct the text
that you cite. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, as I often do, for
lack of directness in your posts. Are you trying to convey that
tension is not necessary in bicycle wheels? Somehow there seems to be
a subtext here but it isn't apparent.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Peter Cole writes:

>> Along with this, they must also devise a tensiometer that can tell
>> when the wheel is tight enough. Spoke nipple torque is not a good
>> measure of tension. That problem is of course as important as the
>> first. This shows that after my yearly harangues about this, they
>> noticed they had a problem that customers knew about all along,
>> that their machine built wheels needed SpokePrep so to speak.


>> http://www.hollandmechanics.com/


>> High tension is where it's at!


> Interesting to look at the video clips of their machines in
> action. Do you think their "stabilizer" machine is actually doing
> some stress relieving?


It looks good to me. I find interesting that they believed in stress
relieving but ignored high tension as a means for a "stable" wheel.
They chose the word "stabilizing" for some reason, possibly because
the concept of stress reduction by over-stressing escaped their
understanding of materials. As I mentioned, a similar method, that of
carefully walking on the spokes of a wheel laid on the floor, has been
used by some manual wheel builders with good success.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
D

dvt

Guest
[email protected] wrote:

> Peter Cole writes:


>>>http://www.hollandmechanics.com/


>>Interesting to look at the video clips of their machines in
>>action. Do you think their "stabilizer" machine is actually doing
>>some stress relieving?


> It looks good to me. I find interesting that they believed in stress
> relieving but ignored high tension as a means for a "stable" wheel.
> They chose the word "stabilizing" for some reason, possibly because
> the concept of stress reduction by over-stressing escaped their
> understanding of materials.


I thought they meant that the wheel was "stabilized" because the machine
caused the spokes to be bedded in the rim and hub properly. In fact,
they even say so. From their web site:

"When we developed the Holland Mechanics wheel stabilizing machine, our
objective was to improve this "seating" of the nipple in the rim and at
spoke bend by applying an additional force on every spoke before final
trueing of the wheel."

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
 
Peter Chisholm writes:

http://www.amclassic.com/Tech_Truing.html

>>> It's a gripper tool that holds the spoke while the nipple is being
>>> tightened. Seems it would be useful when building with very thin
>>> spokes. Conceptually, it should eliminate the need to back-twist
>>> the nipple to take out the spoke windup.


>> Just looking at the picture makes me cringe. Beside the cost, this
>> turns a one-handed job into a two-handed one, and doesn't even
>> guarantee no twist depending on how tight the gripper is applied.
>> Long ago, when building 24-spoke track wheels with 1.5-1.8mm spokes
>> (essentially Revolution), I tried holding spokes with pliers with
>> serrated jaws and discovered how hard it is to prevent twist. Even
>> smooth tipped ViseGrip pliers didn't do the trick.


> I say, perhaps ya ought to actually try one instead of speculating
> when looking at a picture. It DOES work, no problem at all,
> particularly for straight pull spokes that rotate at the hub.


> Including Rev spokes to high tension.


I guess there is a new tool now and then but as I said, gripping the
spoke with pliers, even vise grips, did not prevent twist. I watched
Rick Hjertberg of Wheelsmith, an early proponent of this method
demonstrate how tedious it is. Subsequently, by side loading the
wheel, many clicks were heard as spokes untwisted. As I said, side
loading the wheel while truing, relaxes spoke tension so that windup
is not a problem. That and a bit of overshoot solves the problem for
me.

Have you put a tape (flag) on a spoke when using the device to assure
yourself that the spoke is, in fact, not twisting when high tension is
reached? I am not as easily convinced having my own experience and
observing a believer in the method not achieving that aim.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Dave vt? writes:

http://www.hollandmechanics.com/

>>> Interesting to look at the video clips of their machines in
>>> action. Do you think their "stabilizer" machine is actually doing
>>> some stress relieving?


>> It looks good to me. I find interesting that they believed in
>> stress relieving but ignored high tension as a means for a "stable"
>> wheel. They chose the word "stabilizing" for some reason, possibly
>> because the concept of stress reduction by over-stressing escaped
>> their understanding of materials.


> I thought they meant that the wheel was "stabilized" because the
> machine caused the spokes to be bedded in the rim and hub
> properly. In fact, they even say so. From their web site:


> "When we developed the Holland Mechanics wheel stabilizing machine,
> our objective was to improve this "seating" of the nipple in the rim
> and at spoke bend by applying an additional force on every spoke
> before final trueing of the wheel."


As I said, that's a dodge because the spokes are as bedded-in as
they'll get when the wheel has been trued. The nipples have been
rotationally ground into a solid seat and there is no change there.
Spokes are seated in the flanges and are at as high a tension as they
will see in use. Bear in mind that no one was "stabilizing" wheels
before publication of "the Bicycle Wheel" and, as you see here in
wreck.bike, the concept of stress relieving is opposed vigorously by
people who cite their professional and academic positions to support
their claim that stress relieving cannot occur or even that there are
high residual stresses in spokes, all the while giving no reason why.

Just the same, spokes fail at the last place they were raised to yield
stress, the elbow and threads, unless stress relieved, aka
"stabilized" if you will.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Q

Qui si parla Campagnolo

Guest
Jobst-<< Have you put a tape (flag) on a spoke when using the device to assure
yourself that the spoke is, in fact, not twisting when high tension is
reached? >><BR><BR>

I say that I have and it indeed does work. Your assertion that it makes a one
handed jo\b into a two handed one is silly. Unloading the rim is a two handed
job as well. I will send you one at wholesale Jobst, if you wish, to try it.
Let me know.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
A

Andreas Oehler

Guest
Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:22:17 GMT, [email protected]:

>
>I don't think it merits the use of an extra preparation to achieve
>what motor oil will do, considering that motor oil or a substitute is
>needed to lubricate the spoke nipple to rim interface anyway. Oil
>works well in preventing grit intrusion because it cakes up with road
>dust in a few miles to fill any gap.


The problem with mineral oil: If you use too much and a drop of oil creeps
around the rim tape, it will damage the tube of the rubber. People managed
to get flats this way!

Andreas - using linseed or mineral oil sparingly
 
M

Mark Hickey

Guest
Andreas Oehler <[email protected]> wrote:

>Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:22:17 GMT, [email protected]:
>
>>I don't think it merits the use of an extra preparation to achieve
>>what motor oil will do, considering that motor oil or a substitute is
>>needed to lubricate the spoke nipple to rim interface anyway. Oil
>>works well in preventing grit intrusion because it cakes up with road
>>dust in a few miles to fill any gap.

>
>The problem with mineral oil: If you use too much and a drop of oil creeps
>around the rim tape, it will damage the tube of the rubber. People managed
>to get flats this way!


I've often wondered whether this might be the root cause for many of
the odd flats where the failure is invariably on the rim side next to
the valve. That's precisely where anything that gets into the rim
will eventually find the tube (all other paths being blocked by the
rim tape). I know I've had more than a few flats there - and now that
I think about it, I believe most of them were on newer wheels that I
had built (using linseed oil on the spokes).

Hmmmmm.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Andreas Oehler writes:

>> I don't think it merits the use of an extra preparation to achieve
>> what motor oil will do, considering that motor oil or a substitute
>> is needed to lubricate the spoke nipple to rim interface anyway.
>> Oil works well in preventing grit intrusion because it cakes up
>> with road dust in a few miles to fill any gap.


> The problem with mineral oil: If you use too much and a drop of oil
> creeps around the rim tape, it will damage the tube of the
> rubber. People managed to get flats this way!


There are bogeymen around every corner. Of course you don't spill oil
all over the place, and besides, if that is your worry, you can always
scrub the rim with sudsy water when you are through truing. There are
ways of surviving this process.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
B

Bad Idea

Guest
When you consider how little effort, thought, money, and time goes into
building a set of wheels, you will quickly realized that even the small
profit (evil) earned by an LBS on spokeprep is enough to completely
queer the deal. And, that candle stub found in the trash could be
better used for something else. Soap? Get real!

You will agree that the solution I developed is optimum: snot. It has
high film strength for lubricity and dries to a hardness sufficient to
lock the threads and keep out sand, etc. Snot is free, natural, and
biodegradable.

[BTW, I used to use Loctite C5-A on brass nipples, back when I had an
actual job where I could steal it. ]
 
J

jim beam

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> Johnny Walker writes:
>
>
>>>>>Just the same, oiling the threads before building is useful in
>>>>>two ways. It assists in tensioning for minimal spoke twist and
>>>>>it prevents fine grit from washing into the interface on wet
>>>>>roads.

>
>
>>>>Speaking of spoke windup, have you seen or used the Twist Resist
>>>>tool? It's mentioned on the American Classic website:

>
>
> http://www.amclassic.com/Tech_Truing.html
>
>
>>>>It's a gripper tool that holds the spoke while the nipple is being
>>>>tightened. Seems it would be useful when building with very thin
>>>>spokes. Conceptually, it should eliminate the need to back-twist
>>>>the nipple to take out the spoke windup.

>
>
>>>Just looking at the picture makes me cringe. Beside the cost, this
>>>turns a one-handed job into a two-handed one, and doesn't even
>>>guarantee no twist depending on how tight the gripper is applied.
>>>Long ago, when building 24-spoke track wheels with 1.5-1.8mm spokes
>>>(essentially Revolution), I tried holding spokes with pliers with
>>>serrated jaws and discovered how hard it is to prevent twist. Even
>>>smooth tipped ViseGrip pliers didn't do the trick.

>
>
>>>I found that unloading the spoke to be adjusted a better method,
>>>and with a rigid truing stand this is easily done. Since one
>>>usually holds the wheel in position with the other hand, that hand
>>>can be used to displace the rim toward the side from which the
>>>spoke approaches. This is easily done without any any special
>>>maneuvers. In contrast, imagine how hard it would be to grip the
>>>spoke near the nipple with Twist-resist and turn the nipple with a
>>>spoke wrench.

>
>
>>>As I mentioned, this year at InterBike, an engineer from Holland
>>>Mechanics wheel building machines called me over and asked me to
>>>tell him once more about making machine built wheels as good as
>>>hand built ones. He wrote it down and said that this time they
>>>were going to do something about it. My suggestion was to include
>>>a pneumatic piston that radially presses against the rim at the
>>>spoke being adjusted so that its nipple can be turned freely
>>>regardless of tension.

>
>
>>>Along with this, they must also devise a tensiometer that can tell
>>>when the wheel is tight enough. Spoke nipple torque is not a good
>>>measure of tension. That problem is of course as important as the
>>>first. This shows that after my yearly harangues about this, they
>>>noticed they had a problem that customers knew about all along,
>>>that their machine built wheels needed SpokePrep so to speak.

>
>
>>>http://www.hollandmechanics.com/

>
>
>>>High tension is where it's at!

>
>
>>Where does the HM web site say that?

>
>
> I said that in the line directly above as you may notice. As I
> pointed out, HM did not recognize that machine built wheels have a bad
> reputation primarily because they were too loose, something that has
> only gotten worse with low spoke count wheels.


don't holland say on their web site say that their machines build to
70-90% of final tension? only if you're prosecuting a twisted
condemnation agenda in defiance of the full facts could that possibly be
misconstrued as a problem. their machines do exactly what they are
intended to do - automate the repetitive task of lacing & assembly. do
a great job if you ask me.

>
>>http://www.hollandmechanics.com/f3/hmtoday/archive/HMToday_2004.pdf

>
>
>>refers to paying more attention to tension consistency, lube
>>application, nipple washers, nipple lock, etc, but does not endorse
>>higher tension.

>
>
> I'm glad you noticed.


that's condecending.

> As I said, I'm interested in what they will
> bring to InterBike next year and whether they will correct the text
> that you cite.


like you've hoped for the last how many previous years?

> Maybe I am misunderstanding you, as I often do, for
> lack of directness in your posts. Are you trying to convey that
> tension is not necessary in bicycle wheels?


you'd love to put that wording into my mouth wouldn't you? no, tension
is necessary to maintain the structure, just like torque is necessary to
hold the lug nut on a wheel of a car. however, i've seen a wheel with
absolutely slack spokes ridden for over 6 months with no breakages and a
rim absolutely true. explain that in terms of high tension if you please!

> Somehow there seems to be
> a subtext here but it isn't apparent.
>
> Jobst Brandt
> [email protected]
 
Peter Chisholm writes:

>> Have you put a tape (flag) on a spoke when using the device to
>> assure yourself that the spoke is, in fact, not twisting when high
>> tension is reached?


> I say that I have and it indeed does work. Your assertion that it
> makes a one handed job into a two handed one is silly. Unloading
> the rim is a two handed job as well. I will send you one at
> wholesale Jobst, if you wish, to try it. Let me know.


As I pointed out, holding the rim with one hand is standard practice
and pulling or pushing to the side while doing so is not an additional
task as would be engaging and holding a spoke with Twist Resist pliers
near the spoke nipple (on the fat part of the spoke) while trying to
get a convenient sized spoke wrench in there. Besides, you don't need
a left or right handed spoke wrench to match the pulling hand as is
the case with this tool.

I don't expect to build low spoke count wheels and don't use <1.6mm
diameter spokes so I don't have a need for the tool. Thanks for the
offer.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
J

jim beam

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> Dave vt? writes:
>
> http://www.hollandmechanics.com/
>
>
>>>>Interesting to look at the video clips of their machines in
>>>>action. Do you think their "stabilizer" machine is actually doing
>>>>some stress relieving?

>
>
>>>It looks good to me. I find interesting that they believed in
>>>stress relieving but ignored high tension as a means for a "stable"
>>>wheel. They chose the word "stabilizing" for some reason, possibly
>>>because the concept of stress reduction by over-stressing escaped
>>>their understanding of materials.

>
>
>>I thought they meant that the wheel was "stabilized" because the
>>machine caused the spokes to be bedded in the rim and hub
>>properly. In fact, they even say so. From their web site:

>
>
>>"When we developed the Holland Mechanics wheel stabilizing machine,
>>our objective was to improve this "seating" of the nipple in the rim
>>and at spoke bend by applying an additional force on every spoke
>>before final trueing of the wheel."

>
>
> As I said, that's a dodge because the spokes are as bedded-in as
> they'll get when the wheel has been trued.


to a degree, spokes do get bedded-in with tension, but it's incomplete
yielding compared to that experienced in service and therefore
insufficient to allow a wheel to stay true in use. i've tested it.

> The nipples have been
> rotationally ground into a solid seat and there is no change there.
> Spokes are seated in the flanges and are at as high a tension as they
> will see in use. Bear in mind that no one was "stabilizing" wheels
> before publication of "the Bicycle Wheel"


rubbish! "stress relief" is older than you. it's long been known as a
necessary process to make a wheel stay true after build. it's not for
nothing that holland refer to the process more correctly as "seating" -
basically because that's what the process really is. i watched my first
pair of racing wheels being built with this process back in the 70's,
and the old timer doing it was in his 60's then.

> and, as you see here in
> wreck.bike, the concept of stress relieving is opposed vigorously by
> people who cite their professional and academic positions to support
> their claim that stress relieving cannot occur or even that there are
> high residual stresses in spokes, all the while giving no reason why.


wow - that's the pot calling the kettle black!!!

you have never cited evidence of residual stress, just assumed
existence. this whole argument is incredible coming from a person that
has such a poor grasp of deformation theory they can't differentiate
between a materials that do & don't exhibit strain aging [& know how
that effects fatigue behavior]. it's even more remarkable in view of
advocation of "correcting the spoke line" a deformation process that
does more to induce residual stress than the "stress relief" advocated
in the same breath.

>
> Just the same, spokes fail at the last place they were raised to yield
> stress, the elbow and threads, unless stress relieved, aka
> "stabilized" if you will.


spokes fail at the point at which greatest non-axial stress is applied -
the spoke elbow. that's why straight pull spokes are used these days -
pure axial loading. again, you've never cited any evidence for your
contention that spoke manufacturers are so incompetent that they can't
deploy their millions of dollars in r&d budgets to any effect.

>
> Jobst Brandt
> [email protected]
 
WOW!!
That's really interesting. I too have had a lot of flats @ valve on the
valve side w/ newly built wheels. I've never given any thought to
liberally dousing oil on. I just thought, "well they sure don't make
tubes like they used to" I sometimes have alcoholic thinking --If a
little is good, then a lot is better. I'll try that to see if it works.
Thanks for the 'point out', John