Spoke tension Question

[Sandy]

Dans le message de
news:[email protected],
Jay Beattie <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Oct 30, 8:16 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On Oct 30, 5:49 pm, Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Oct 30, 11:29 am, Ozark Bicycle
>>
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 30, 10:49 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 8:17 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jas51 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a
>>>>>>>>> tire be mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung
>>>>>>>>> the spokes up to tension with no tire mounted, but the 160
>>>>>>>>> psi thread got me wondering. What's the proper technique?
>>>>>>>> Bare rim. Using a really shitty spoke wrench you got carded at
>>>>>>>> a Kmart in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension
>>>>>>>> each spoke till your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!"
>>>>>>>> instead of "twooong!" when plucked. Make sure to have your
>>>>>>>> ears calibrated beforehand.
>>>>>>> Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim.
>>>>>>> Rinse and repeat. ;-)
>>>>>> All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
>>>>>> dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't
>>>>>> distinguish between specific brands of rims, some which can take
>>>>>> more tension--but the wheels stay true, and that's all that
>>>>>> matters in the end. ;-) I've only had one rim ever go bad on me,
>>>>>> and that was a cracked MA3 a couple years ago--which I doubt had
>>>>>> to do with spoke tension. As long as the tension is good enough,
>>>>>> the spokes seated in the flanges, and the overall tension
>>>>>> even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned junk.
>>>>>> The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
>>>>>> rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
>>>>>> which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
>>>>>> compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.
>>>>> "The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to
>>>>> modern
>>>>> rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box
>>>>> shape
>>>>> rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.-
>>>>> Hide quoted text -
>>>> http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2539-00' I
>>>> think $54 is a reasonable investment -- less than a Open Pro rim
>>>> full price. -- Jay Beattie
>>
>>> Considering the investment in a pair of hubs, pair of rims, 60+
>>> spokes, etc., it seems foolish to "cheap out" and not buy a Park
>>> Tensiometer.
>>
>> yeahbut some individuals think their psychic powers make them exempt
>> from the physics of earthly matter. they "don't need no steenkin'
>> tensiometer", remember?- Hide quoted text -
>
> I think the Book has to abandon the MA2/6 speed paradigm. It is no
> longer the real world. -- Jay Beattie.

I'm sure I read it's being updated to 7V - not true??
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

"Le Vin est la plus saine et la plus hygiénique des boissons."
- Louis Pasteur

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 1, 8:55 am, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dans le message denews:[email protected],
> Jay Beattie <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>
>
>
> > On Oct 30, 8:16 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >>> On Oct 30, 5:49 pm, Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> On Oct 30, 11:29 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>> On Oct 30, 10:49 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Oct 30, 8:17 am, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Jas51 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a
> >>>>>>>>> tire be mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung
> >>>>>>>>> the spokes up to tension with no tire mounted, but the 160
> >>>>>>>>> psi thread got me wondering. What's the proper technique?
> >>>>>>>> Bare rim. Using a really shitty spoke wrench you got carded at
> >>>>>>>> a Kmart in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension
> >>>>>>>> each spoke till your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!"
> >>>>>>>> instead of "twooong!" when plucked. Make sure to have your
> >>>>>>>> ears calibrated beforehand.
> >>>>>>> Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim.
> >>>>>>> Rinse and repeat. ;-)
> >>>>>> All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
> >>>>>> dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't
> >>>>>> distinguish between specific brands of rims, some which can take
> >>>>>> more tension--but the wheels stay true, and that's all that
> >>>>>> matters in the end. ;-) I've only had one rim ever go bad on me,
> >>>>>> and that was a cracked MA3 a couple years ago--which I doubt had
> >>>>>> to do with spoke tension. As long as the tension is good enough,
> >>>>>> the spokes seated in the flanges, and the overall tension
> >>>>>> even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned junk.
> >>>>>> The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
> >>>>>> rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
> >>>>>> which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
> >>>>>> compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.
> >>>>> "The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to
> >>>>> modern
> >>>>> rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box
> >>>>> shape
> >>>>> rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.-
> >>>>> Hide quoted text -
> >>>>http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2539-00' I
> >>>> think $54 is a reasonable investment -- less than a Open Pro rim
> >>>> full price. -- Jay Beattie
>
> >>> Considering the investment in a pair of hubs, pair of rims, 60+
> >>> spokes, etc., it seems foolish to "cheap out" and not buy a Park
> >>> Tensiometer.
>
> >> yeahbut some individuals think their psychic powers make them exempt
> >> from the physics of earthly matter. they "don't need no steenkin'
> >> tensiometer", remember?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > I think the Book has to abandon the MA2/6 speed paradigm. It is no
> > longer the real world. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> I'm sure I read it's being updated to 7V - not true??
> --

Apparently, Jobst the Great and Mighty is now using 7sp Shimano
freehubs. He's moved right into the heart of 1980s technology. What's
next, crossover front gearing????

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Oct 31, 6:16 pm, Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:

> That's true -- or even higher spoke tensions. The CPX 33 seems to fit
> the bill as well as some of the heavier Velocity rims. IMO, the
> optimal rim would be an Aerohead OC with more metal at the eyelets or
> sockets -- maybe a 450g rim instead of nominal 400g. I like the OC
> design.

Aeroheads seem to weigh 420-430g at the moment... but then they
usually vary a lot. Has anyone got stories of Aeroheads cracking
around the eyelets? Or Fusions or Deep Vs?

> The market is pushing for lighter prefab wheels, though, and
> we'll be lucky if we can eveny buy bare rims in five years -- let
> alone get new entrants to the rim-only market. -- Jay Beattie.

Some are getting out of the game (like Mavic) but others are coming in
(like Kinlin). I think the wheel parts (build your own) market has
already hit bottom. Custom wheels in the $500+ range can be lighter,
more aerodynamic, and less expensive than the factory alternatives,
and have easily replaceable and less expensive parts. There will
always be some people who appreciate those qualities.

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Oct 31, 2:28 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:

> And, when the DS tension is too high, the spoke bed cracks around the
> DS spokeholes. The solution to keeping the NDS spokes from going slack
> is a mild threadlock.

Doesn't keep them from going slack... just keeps them from unscrewing.
You still have the spoke fatigue and greater chance of rim buckling
when a spoke goes slack.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 1, 1:06 pm, Ron Ruff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 31, 2:28 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > And, when the DS tension is too high, the spoke bed cracks around the
> > DS spokeholes. The solution to keeping the NDS spokes from going slack
> > is a mild threadlock.
>
> Doesn't keep them from going slack... just keeps them from unscrewing.
> You still have the spoke fatigue and greater chance of rim buckling
> when a spoke goes slack.

Hmmmm.....if the NDS spokes are tensioned (i.e., not slack) when the
wheel is built, and the threadlock "keeps them from unscrewing" during
use........

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Nov 1, 1:28 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Hmmmm.....if the NDS spokes are tensioned (i.e., not slack) when the
> wheel is built, and the threadlock "keeps them from unscrewing" during
> use........

They go slack under load... like when you are riding the bike.

 

[Jas51]

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:55:39 -0800, Jas51 wrote:


Bump

> Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
> mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
> with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
> proper technique?

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 1, 8:19 pm, Ron Ruff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Nov 1, 1:28 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hmmmm.....if the NDS spokes are tensioned (i.e., not slack) when the
> > wheel is built, and the threadlock "keeps them from unscrewing" during
> > use........
>
> They go slack under load... like when you are riding the bike.

If the wheel stays true, and spokes don't break - all is well.

 

[Ron Ruff]

On Nov 2, 4:40 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> If the wheel stays true, and spokes don't break - all is well.

Yes... but most likely the threadlock wasn't necessary. What do you
use for a threadlock?

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 2, 12:12 pm, Ron Ruff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Nov 2, 4:40 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If the wheel stays true, and spokes don't break - all is well.
>
> Yes... but most likely the threadlock wasn't necessary. What do you
> use for a threadlock?

I've used linseed oil since 1989. IMO, with 130mm 8/9/10sp rear wheels
built on mom-offset rims, it most likely *is* a benefit. Aside from a
few more minutes prep time, there is no downside - none- nada- zip.

 

[landotter]

On Nov 2, 4:30 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Nov 2, 12:12 pm, Ron Ruff <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 2, 4:40 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > If the wheel stays true, and spokes don't break - all is well.
>
> > Yes... but most likely the threadlock wasn't necessary. What do you
> > use for a threadlock?
>
> I've used linseed oil since 1989. IMO, with 130mm 8/9/10sp rear wheels
> built on mom-offset rims, it most likely *is* a benefit. Aside from a
> few more minutes prep time, there is no downside - none- nada- zip.

Do ya let it set up for a while, or just dip and use? I suppose you
could use Danish or Tung oil oil if you really want to upsell!

 

[A Muzi]

>> Ozark Bicycle
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> If the wheel stays true, and spokes don't break - all is well.

> Ron Ruff <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Yes... but most likely the threadlock wasn't necessary. What do you
>> use for a threadlock?

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> I've used linseed oil since 1989. IMO, with 130mm 8/9/10sp rear wheels
> built on mom-offset rims, it most likely *is* a benefit. Aside from a
> few more minutes prep time, there is no downside - none- nada- zip.

Agreed. For even longer, we've seen no reason to change. Works well, no
downside, a quart goes about a year here.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Tom Sherman]

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> On Oct 30, 9:32 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
>> OK JAY a bargain
>> and from Oak Park!
>> but what good is it? relative to the trueing process?
>
> I know! There's a chip in the tension-o-meter. When spoke tension
> records as unevenly nearing the universal taco level, a signal goes
> forth and this guy shows up on your lawn.
>
> http://www.synergise.com/travel/Homepage/ecards/switzerland_horn.jpg
>
So that is the secret Jobst picked up while riding in the Alps.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

 

[Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Oct 31, 12:45 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle skrev:
>>
>>> "The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
>>> rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
>>> rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.
>> If people bothered to look up in Jobst Brandt's book (3. ed.) page
>> 105, he specifically says that the "taco" method only applies to
>> conventional road rims under 430 grams with 36 spokes (perhaps 32
>> spokes too).
>> MTB rims, carbon rims, heavy v-rims, 24 spoke rims etc. can't use the
>> "Taco" method.
>>
>> I see the "Taco" method as an easy, practical way to get the safe
>> maximum tension on a standard wheel set. The method is in no way
>> "outdated", on the contrary,
>
> IME, many modern profile rims will have their recommended spoke
> tension maximum before fhey 'deform' per the method recommended by
> Jobst Brandt....

Then these rims are poorly designed, since there is excess material that
creates stiffness in bending that is greater than the wheel needs to
remain true at maximum allowable spoke tension. The rim could be made
lighter for a given WHEEL strength, or the same weight rim could be
redesigned to allow for a stronger overall WHEEL.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

 

[Tom Sherman]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> Ozark Bicycle
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> And, when the DS tension is too high, the spoke bed cracks around the
>> DS spokeholes. The solution to keeping the NDS spokes from going slack
>> is a mild threadlock.
>
> The solution is to buy only rims whose spoke beds can
> sustain 110 kgf. Then the manufacturers would make
> more of them. There are rims now that can sustain
> the whole nine yards.
>
butbutbut, these sensible wheels do not impress when the bicycle is
parked at the coffee shop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

 

[Tom Sherman]

Jas51 who? wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:55:39 -0800, Jas51 wrote:
>
>
> Bump

This is Usenet, not a web based message board.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 2, 4:50 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Nov 2, 4:30 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 12:12 pm, Ron Ruff <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 2, 4:40 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > If the wheel stays true, and spokes don't break - all is well.
>
> > > Yes... but most likely the threadlock wasn't necessary. What do you
> > > use for a threadlock?
>
> > I've used linseed oil since 1989. IMO, with 130mm 8/9/10sp rear wheels
> > built on mom-offset rims, it most likely *is* a benefit. Aside from a
> > few more minutes prep time, there is no downside - none- nada- zip.
>
> Do ya let it set up for a while, or just dip and use? I suppose you
> could use Danish or Tung oil oil if you really want to upsell!

I dip the spoke threads and build the wheel. I do prefer to let it
'set up' for a couple of days before the wheel is used - if possible
(some people are in such a damn hurry!).

 

[jim beam]

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> On Oct 31, 12:45 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>>> Ozark Bicycle skrev:
>>>
>>>> "The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
>>>> rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
>>>> rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.
>>> If people bothered to look up in Jobst Brandt's book (3. ed.) page
>>> 105, he specifically says that the "taco" method only applies to
>>> conventional road rims under 430 grams with 36 spokes (perhaps 32
>>> spokes too).
>>> MTB rims, carbon rims, heavy v-rims, 24 spoke rims etc. can't use the
>>> "Taco" method.
>>>
>>> I see the "Taco" method as an easy, practical way to get the safe
>>> maximum tension on a standard wheel set. The method is in no way
>>> "outdated", on the contrary,
>>
>> IME, many modern profile rims will have their recommended spoke
>> tension maximum before fhey 'deform' per the method recommended by
>> Jobst Brandt....
>
> Then these rims are poorly designed,

eh? so by that rationale, rims are also poorly designed because they
dent when you ride up 6" curbs? because that's well within the range of
daily experience.

> since there is excess material that
> creates stiffness in bending that is greater than the wheel needs to
> remain true at maximum allowable spoke tension. The rim could be made
> lighter for a given WHEEL strength, or the same weight rim could be
> redesigned to allow for a stronger overall WHEEL.

er....

 

[jim beam]

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Ozark Bicycle <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> And, when the DS tension is too high, the spoke bed cracks around the
>>> DS spokeholes. The solution to keeping the NDS spokes from going slack
>>> is a mild threadlock.
>>
>> The solution is to buy only rims whose spoke beds can sustain 110 kgf.
>> Then the manufacturers would make more of them. There are rims now
>> that can sustain
>> the whole nine yards.
>>
> butbutbut, these sensible wheels do not impress when the bicycle is
> parked at the coffee shop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

but but but they impress more than the toy-sized wheels seen on some 'bents.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Nov 2, 7:04 pm, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >> On Oct 31, 12:45 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> >>> Ozark Bicycle skrev:
>
> >>>> "The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
> >>>> rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
> >>>> rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.
> >>> If people bothered to look up in Jobst Brandt's book (3. ed.) page
> >>> 105, he specifically says that the "taco" method only applies to
> >>> conventional road rims under 430 grams with 36 spokes (perhaps 32
> >>> spokes too).
> >>> MTB rims, carbon rims, heavy v-rims, 24 spoke rims etc. can't use the
> >>> "Taco" method.
>
> >>> I see the "Taco" method as an easy, practical way to get the safe
> >>> maximum tension on a standard wheel set. The method is in no way
> >>> "outdated", on the contrary,
>
> >> IME, many modern profile rims will have their recommended spoke
> >> tension maximum before fhey 'deform' per the method recommended by
> >> Jobst Brandt....
>
> > Then these rims are poorly designed,
>
> eh? so by that rationale, rims are also poorly designed because they
> dent when you ride up 6" curbs? because that's well within the range of
> daily experience.
>
> > since there is excess material that
> > creates stiffness in bending that is greater than the wheel needs to
> > remain true at maximum allowable spoke tension. The rim could be made
> > lighter for a given WHEEL strength, or the same weight rim could be
> > redesigned to allow for a stronger overall WHEEL.
>
> er....


Why argue with an idiot, mr. beam?