Spokes/nipples, etc. for CXP33/Chris King wheels

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Scott Cooper, Jul 8, 2005.

  1. Scott Cooper

    Scott Cooper Guest

    I am new to wheel building and have been reading up a lot on the topic
    here and in Jobst Brandts book. I have a few sets of rims and hubs
    that I will be working with but one of the wheel sets I want to build
    up is for a TT/Multisport bike using a Cervelo P2k frame. I am only a
    150lbs and anticipate using these wheels on good roads, etc. so I'm
    leaning towards weight savings as opposed to building something that is
    bomb proof.

    That's the background, here are my questions...

    The CXP33's I have are 28-hole...for the front, I have a CK Single
    Speed (high flange) hub. I was thinking of using DT Revolution spokes
    in either a radial or 1x spoke pattern. For the rear, I have a Chris
    King Classic Road hub and I was thinking of going with the same spokes
    in a radial-left, 2x-right pattern.

    Any general thoughts on this setup?

    In regard to spoke length, I've read a lot of posts that have only
    confused me more...What is the ERD for CXP33's? I've seen it listed
    different places and in different spoke calculators as 597, 598, 599,
    and 600. Also, using spocalc from Sheldon Browns website, the CXP33 ERD
    is "Mavic's Nipple Seat Dia + 3mm for nipples". Can someone explain
    this to me?

    Also, since I am new to wheelbuilding and am thinking of using the
    Revolution spokes, I was thinking of using long (16mm) nipples to make
    the wheels a bit stronger and easier to build (by having more of the
    nipple exposed). I do understand that 12mm nipples will work with
    these rims...does this seem like sound logic? How would this factor
    into the spoke lenth calculation (I've seen some conflicting info a/b
    how 16mm nipples effect spoke lentgh choice)?

    Thanks for anyone willing to give me some feedback!
     
    Tags:


  2. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    Scott Cooper wrote:
    > I am new to wheel building and have been reading up a lot on the topic
    > here and in Jobst Brandts book. I have a few sets of rims and hubs
    > that I will be working with but one of the wheel sets I want to build
    > up is for a TT/Multisport bike using a Cervelo P2k frame. I am only a
    > 150lbs and anticipate using these wheels on good roads, etc. so I'm
    > leaning towards weight savings as opposed to building something that is
    > bomb proof.
    >
    > That's the background, here are my questions...
    >
    > The CXP33's I have are 28-hole...for the front, I have a CK Single
    > Speed (high flange) hub. I was thinking of using DT Revolution spokes
    > in either a radial or 1x spoke pattern. For the rear, I have a Chris
    > King Classic Road hub and I was thinking of going with the same spokes
    > in a radial-left, 2x-right pattern.
    >
    > Any general thoughts on this setup?
    >
    > In regard to spoke length, I've read a lot of posts that have only
    > confused me more...What is the ERD for CXP33's? I've seen it listed
    > different places and in different spoke calculators as 597, 598, 599,
    > and 600. Also, using spocalc from Sheldon Browns website, the CXP33 ERD
    > is "Mavic's Nipple Seat Dia + 3mm for nipples". Can someone explain
    > this to me?
    >
    > Also, since I am new to wheelbuilding and am thinking of using the
    > Revolution spokes, I was thinking of using long (16mm) nipples to make
    > the wheels a bit stronger and easier to build (by having more of the
    > nipple exposed). I do understand that 12mm nipples will work with
    > these rims...does this seem like sound logic? How would this factor
    > into the spoke lenth calculation (I've seen some conflicting info a/b
    > how 16mm nipples effect spoke lentgh choice)?
    >
    > Thanks for anyone willing to give me some feedback!
    >

    1. if you want light, you want open pro's, not cxp33's.
    2. if you want better hub flange spacing, [and you do for
    stability/strength/more even spoke tension ratio] you want shimano, not
    chris king.
    3. if you want ease of build for a first timer, you want competitions,
    not revos.
    4. if you want stiff wheels, you want competitions, not revos,
    especially at lower spoke counts [though this may be academic at your
    weight]
    5. make sure you build with correct spoke tension for the rim - advice
    you read advocating spoke "tension as high as the rim will bear" is
    flawed and based on misconception - excess tension does not increase the
    strength of the wheel and leads to rim reliability issues.
    6. look up the spoke length on the d.t. swiss web site calculator.
    those numbers are reliable.
    7. if you want time trial bling, consider bladed spokes.
     
  3. In article
    <[email protected]>,
    "Scott Cooper" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I am new to wheel building and have been reading up a lot on the topic
    > here and in Jobst Brandts book. I have a few sets of rims and hubs
    > that I will be working with but one of the wheel sets I want to build
    > up is for a TT/Multisport bike using a Cervelo P2k frame. I am only a
    > 150lbs and anticipate using these wheels on good roads, etc. so I'm
    > leaning towards weight savings as opposed to building something that is
    > bomb proof.
    >


    Congratulations for taking up wheel building.
    First build a pair of conservative bomb proof wheels to prove to
    yourself that you can build a usable wheel. It is easier, even
    necessary, to work well within the parameters when you embark upon
    any new endeavor. Only then can you push toward a more highly
    engineered wheel.

    [...]

    --
    Michael Press
     
  4. Scott Cooper wrote:
    > I am new to wheel building and have been reading up a lot on the topic
    > here and in Jobst Brandts book. I have a few sets of rims and hubs
    > that I will be working with but one of the wheel sets I want to build
    > up is for a TT/Multisport bike using a Cervelo P2k frame. I am only a
    > 150lbs and anticipate using these wheels on good roads, etc. so I'm
    > leaning towards weight savings as opposed to building something that is
    > bomb proof.
    >
    > That's the background, here are my questions...
    >
    > The CXP33's I have are 28-hole...for the front, I have a CK Single
    > Speed (high flange) hub. I was thinking of using DT Revolution spokes
    > in either a radial or 1x spoke pattern. For the rear, I have a Chris
    > King Classic Road hub and I was thinking of going with the same spokes
    > in a radial-left, 2x-right pattern.
    >
    > Any general thoughts on this setup?


    Use 2cross all around, 14/15 for the rear, Revs for the front.

    16mm nipps, round down on the length and then subtract 1mm.
    >
    > In regard to spoke length, I've read a lot of posts that have only
    > confused me more...What is the ERD for CXP33's? I've seen it listed
    > different places and in different spoke calculators as 597, 598, 599,
    > and 600. Also, using spocalc from Sheldon Browns website, the CXP33 ERD
    > is "Mavic's Nipple Seat Dia + 3mm for nipples". Can someone explain
    > this to me?
    >
    > Also, since I am new to wheelbuilding and am thinking of using the
    > Revolution spokes, I was thinking of using long (16mm) nipples to make
    > the wheels a bit stronger and easier to build (by having more of the
    > nipple exposed). I do understand that 12mm nipples will work with
    > these rims...does this seem like sound logic? How would this factor
    > into the spoke lenth calculation (I've seen some conflicting info a/b
    > how 16mm nipples effect spoke lentgh choice)?
    >
    > Thanks for anyone willing to give me some feedback!
     
  5. Scott Cooper wrote:
    598mm is what I use.
     
  6. Scott Cooper

    Scott Cooper Guest

    Jim,

    I actually have a pair of Open Pros as well but I was going to use the
    CXP's b/c of the [very] slight aero advantage they offer over OP's.
    Also, while I want to build these on the light side, I'm not THAT
    concerned with the weight. Besides, the CXPs are red and better match
    the frame :)

    I'm not sure what you mean in regard to the hub flange spacing issue
    between CK and Shimano. Can you point me to any references/discussions
    on that topic? I would have thought that, especially with the high
    flange/28-hole front hub, the CK would be one of the strongest out
    there.

    What is it a/b the revos that makes them harder to build with compared
    with the comps?

    Michael, I do intend on playing with some old and/or cheap stuff I have
    laying around before building up this set.

    Thank you both for the feedback.
     
  7. Lee

    Lee Guest

    Scott Cooper wrote:

    > I am new to wheel building and have been reading up a lot on the topic
    > here and in Jobst Brandts book. I have a few sets of rims and hubs
    > that I will be working with but one of the wheel sets I want to build


    > In regard to spoke length, I've read a lot of posts that have only
    > confused me more...What is the ERD for CXP33's? I've seen it listed
    > different places and in different spoke calculators as 597, 598, 599,
    > and 600. Also, using spocalc from Sheldon Browns website, the CXP33 ERD
    > is "Mavic's Nipple Seat Dia + 3mm for nipples". Can someone explain
    > this to me?


    I'm in the same boat. Have a couple of sets of rims/hubs to build up, have
    not done this before.

    ERDs, spoke length, etc are confusing to me. Lots of information on the web,
    enough to keep me from doing anything.

    So I stopped in at Harris Cyclery (Sheldon's roost), explained what I wanted
    to do, asked what I should order, and gave them my credit card.

    A week later I had the correct spokes and nipples (in black, no less) and
    nipple prep.

    If you're not local to a good bike shop, call Harris or Peter, tell them
    what you have, ask them what you need, and place an order.

    Lee
     
  8. daveornee

    daveornee New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
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    I would use 2 cross all around for your existing 28 hole CXP-33 rims.
    The ERD with nipple heads that are 3 mm thick is 598.
    I would use Revolutions on the front and left rear (or Sapim Laser 14/17 DB). I would use DT Competition or Sapim Race 14/15 DB on the right rear.
    I would use Sapim 12 mm Polyax plated brass nipples all around.... as I prefer them with Sapim spokes. Longer nipples are not needed with these rims. 16 mm nipples won't make the build stronger, in fact they may make it weaker... depending on the nipples you choose.
    You will need to use all the prescribed methods to deal with spoke wind-up no matter which spokes and nipples you use. I suggest teflon bearing grease on the spoke threads, nipple heads where they bear on rim socket interface, and on the rim socket/nipple interface... just to be sure.
    Spoke alignment, tension balancing, proper tension, and stress relieving will give you the results you are looking for.
    David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
    dave at ornee dot net
     
  9. jim beam

    jim beam Guest

    Scott Cooper wrote:
    > Jim,
    >
    > I actually have a pair of Open Pros as well but I was going to use the
    > CXP's b/c of the [very] slight aero advantage they offer over OP's.
    > Also, while I want to build these on the light side, I'm not THAT
    > concerned with the weight. Besides, the CXPs are red and better match
    > the frame :)
    >
    > I'm not sure what you mean in regard to the hub flange spacing issue
    > between CK and Shimano. Can you point me to any references/discussions
    > on that topic? I would have thought that, especially with the high
    > flange/28-hole front hub, the CK would be one of the strongest out
    > there.


    it's not a function of hub strength, it's hub geometry. if you look at
    the latest version of damon rinard's spoke calculator, he has a
    calculation for the tension ratio between left & right sides of a dished
    wheel. the formula is accessible if you're curious, but basically, the
    smaller the distance from the center to the drive side flange, as is the
    case with a dished rear, the greater the disparity in bracing angles
    between the two sides. ck is 18.5mm, dura-ace is 21.1mm.

    bracing angle is important for spoke tension because if the left side
    tension is too low, and you're not using some form of thread lock, you
    can have nipples loosening in use and have issues with keeping the rim
    true. excessive slack can lead to spoke fatigue issues too. at 21.1mm,
    shimano gives about 65% tension ratio, the ck only 57%. you can't just
    increase right side tension to compensate because that can exceed rim
    spec and the ratio is strictly a function of geometry.

    excessively shallow bracing angle also affects lateral stability because
    as bracing angle decreases, lateral flexibility increases.

    >
    > What is it a/b the revos that makes them harder to build with compared
    > with the comps?


    they're skinny so they have a lot of torsional twist. it's best to
    practice with a few other wheel builds to get your hand in before using
    skinny spokes - takes a lot more time & patience, so it's good to be
    confident you know what you're doing first.

    >
    > Michael, I do intend on playing with some old and/or cheap stuff I have
    > laying around before building up this set.
    >
    > Thank you both for the feedback.
    >

    one final thing about the ck, while it is a beautifully made hub, it
    also has an aluminum freehub body. call me old fashioned, but when i
    remove a cassette and find the freehub body all mangled because the
    alloy is not strong enough to cope with individual sprocket loadings, i
    have a problem with the $350-odd i just spent on that hub. there's a
    reason shimano use steel or ti on their shallow toothed freehub bodies -
    those materials can take the loads resulting from their shallow toothed
    cassette design. aluminum can't. if you want aluminum, you have to go
    with the deep tooth design of the campy or d-a 10. but ck is not
    available for campy, so you can't even use a campy cassette!!!
     
  10. 8 Jul 2005 20:01:37 -0700, Scott Cooper <[email protected]> skrev:


    > Also, since I am new to wheelbuilding and am thinking of using the
    > Revolution spokes, I was thinking of using long (16mm) nipples to make
    > the wheels a bit stronger and easier to build (by having more of the
    > nipple exposed). I do understand that 12mm nipples will work with
    > these rims...does this seem like sound logic? How would this factor
    > into the spoke lenth calculation (I've seen some conflicting info a/b
    > how 16mm nipples effect spoke lentgh choice)?
    >


    I like the CXP33 rim a lot and I have built 4 wheels with it within the
    last two years. The first one I made with 12 mm nipples, and that was a
    mistake. I strongly recommend you use 14 mm, as it is recommended by Mavic
    as well as by DT Swiss.
    You will probably scratch the coloring off the rim with the nipple wrench
    if you use 12 mm nipples - even if you are carefull about it. Also I
    rounded the edges of some of the 12 mm nibbles, but that was probably
    partly due to my choice of the softer alu nibbles. However I did not have
    that problem with the wheels I built with the 14 mm alu nibbles.


    Good luck
    Enjoy
    Ivar
     
  11. daveornee

    daveornee New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    2,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    <SNIP>

    it's not a function of hub strength, it's hub geometry. if you look at
    the latest version of damon rinard's spoke calculator, he has a
    calculation for the tension ratio between left & right sides of a dished
    wheel. the formula is accessible if you're curious, but basically, the
    smaller the distance from the center to the drive side flange, as is the
    case with a dished rear, the greater the disparity in bracing angles
    between the two sides. ck is 18.5mm, dura-ace is 21.1mm.

    bracing angle is important for spoke tension because if the left side
    tension is too low, and you're not using some form of thread lock, you
    can have nipples loosening in use and have issues with keeping the rim
    true. excessive slack can lead to spoke fatigue issues too. at 21.1mm,
    shimano gives about 65% tension ratio, the ck only 57%. you can't just
    increase right side tension to compensate because that can exceed rim
    spec and the ratio is strictly a function of geometry.

    excessively shallow bracing angle also affects lateral stability because
    as bracing angle decreases, lateral flexibility increases.

    >
    > What is it a/b the revos that makes them harder to build with compared
    > with the comps?


    they're skinny so they have a lot of torsional twist. it's best to
    practice with a few other wheel builds to get your hand in before using
    skinny spokes - takes a lot more time & patience, so it's good to be
    confident you know what you're doing first.

    >
    > Michael, I do intend on playing with some old and/or cheap stuff I have
    > laying around before building up this set.
    >
    > Thank you both for the feedback.
    >

    one final thing about the ck, while it is a beautifully made hub, it
    also has an aluminum freehub body. call me old fashioned, but when i
    remove a cassette and find the freehub body all mangled because the
    alloy is not strong enough to cope with individual sprocket loadings, i
    have a problem with the $350-odd i just spent on that hub. there's a
    reason shimano use steel or ti on their shallow toothed freehub bodies -
    those materials can take the loads resulting from their shallow toothed
    cassette design. aluminum can't. if you want aluminum, you have to go
    with the deep tooth design of the campy or d-a 10. but ck is not
    available for campy, so you can't even use a campy cassette!!![/QUOTE]
    CK hub geometry is not a problem with most riders (no Chalo sized riders should use the road one). If it were a problem, modern Campagnolo would be more of a problem as their bracing angle is even less on the drive side. Many competitive riders that are stronger and heavier than the original poster ride Campagnolo without any of the dire problems projected by Jim Beam.
    It is true that you will get more wind-up with Revolution or Laser 14/17 DB spokes than with 14/15 Competition or Race spokes. However, you will get some wind-up with any spoke and you need to deal with it. Don't let the fear of wind-up keep you from using 14/17 spokes. It may take a little extra time and patience, but I wouldn't let this deter you. If you want to build a wheel fast, pick up a rim, front hub, and straight gauge spokes, and build it radial with heads out. I don't suggest that you really do that, but my point is that taking a few extra operations is part of the learning curve and you should aim to get the best for you.
    If you don't already own a spoke wrench I suggest Spokey brand. Spokey looks cheap, but in fact it is reliable, secure, and helps keep you from scarring the rim surfaces surrounding the spoke holes. I have built dozens of CXP-33 wheels with Spokey wrench , 12 mm Sapim Polyax plated brass nipples, Sapim Laser front/left rear & Sapim Race right with no problems (the last ones are 32H Chris King)
    If you already have a Chris King hub with aluminum freehub body I would go ahead and use it. Using DURA ACE or other cassettes that have all the lower gears joined on a carrier will help spread the load. Yes, you will see some distortion on the aluminum freehub. I suggest you torque the cassette down per specifications and remove it after some riding to see the progress of the distortion. Chris King makes a Stainless Steel Drive Shell that can be used as a replacement as required. If you are going to buy just the shell you will need the expensive Chris King hub service tool. However, you can buy the entire Freehub assembly that can easily be installed with just a couple of 5 mm Allen wrenches once you remove the cassette from the freehub.
    Deep groove cassettes like the 10 speed DURA ACE don't fit the Chris King.
    If you would like direct communications regarding your build you can drop me an email.
    David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
    dave at ornee dot net
     
  12. Ron Ruff

    Ron Ruff Guest

    If you want your wheels to be light and aero, consider the Wheelsmith
    AE15 spokes. They are butted 1.8/1.6/1.8 spokes that are ovalized in
    the middle... suitable for the front and the left rear (use
    2.0/1.7-1.8/2.0 for the right rear). They are easier to build with than
    revolutions, since you can see if the spoke is straight, and fashion a
    clamp to hold it as you turn the nipple. OddsandEndos.com is a good
    source, and they are pretty cheap, too... $0.59 each last time I
    looked.

    -Ron
     
  13. Ron Ruff wrote:
    > If you want your wheels to be light and aero, consider the Wheelsmith
    > AE15 spokes. They are butted 1.8/1.6/1.8 spokes that are ovalized in
    > the middle... suitable for the front and the left rear (use
    > 2.0/1.7-1.8/2.0 for the right rear). They are easier to build with than
    > revolutions, since you can see if the spoke is straight, and fashion a
    > clamp to hold it as you turn the nipple. OddsandEndos.com is a good
    > source, and they are pretty cheap, too... $0.59 each last time I
    > looked.
    >
    > -Ron


    Just a note on WS spokes. We have a pack of them taken off wheels built
    by WS, that all failed in the middle. failed in that they gace up their
    strength in the middle, started stretching and then failed. Turning the
    nipple tighter trying to move the rim to that side and the rim actually
    moved the opposite way. About 20 so far. would not use WS spokes for
    any application. DT or Sapim, except Sapin distributor keeps only
    liminted sizes, mostly even mms only and I think their nipps are WAY
    over priced.
     
  14. Scott Cooper

    Scott Cooper Guest

    Great feedback. Thank you all!
     
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