Sports drinks

[Pat Lamb]

Peter Cole wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> What I've read is that in warm weather and long rides, electrolytes
>> help prevent cramping.
>
> I think that theory has been largely discredited. It's a fatigue thing.
>
>> If you're eating salty food at the same time,
>> or your diet in general is high in salt, then salt in the drink isn't
>> useful. But if you're not, the salts help. Salts in drinks also tend
>> to make people drink more, which is a big bonus if they otherwise
>> wouldn't drink enough.
>
> If you need salt on a long hot ride it's because you've depleted your
> reserve (about 8g Na, if I recall correctly). It's possible to deplete
> that in a few hours of heavy sweating, but until that condition occurs
> you don't need extra salt. The salt in Gatorade was originally added to
> speed uptake, not to replenish. If you need to replenish, there's not
> enough. Drinks beyond a certain salinity are extremely unpalatable --
> you're much better off eating some salty foods or taking tablets.

Uhm, maybe, YMMV. I can sweat about 2 quarts/hour, and can only drink
(and properly process) about 1 qt/hr. As far as I can tell, I sweat
pretty darn close to normal saline -- that's about 3 grams or salt per
quart of sweat. (I'm a statistical outlier according to cool-weather
physiologists.) That rate gives me 90 minutes before I've depleted a
reserve.

Problem is, that reserve has to be replenished. When I'm riding daily,
even just commuting an hour a day in hot weather, it's tough to maintain
that theoretical salt reserve.

I end up using one or more of the following: salting my drink (lemonade
or Gatorade), heavily salting food (you know how many shakes of salt it
takes to make up 8 grams?), taking a few days off every 10 days or so to
catch up, or eating pho every other week. Sounds like a lunch plan!

Pat

 

[Alex Rodriguez]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

>Why cut it?

I cut it to 50% because I find it tastes better. Straight gatorade tastes
too sweet to me.
------------
Alex

 

[[email protected]]

Peter Cole wrote:
<snipped>

-on "sports drinks"-
>
> I think it's all just (very) expensive Kool-aid.

It seems pretty easy to make a Kool-aid based clone of a brand name
sports drink, here's an example:

1 5.6gr pkg Kool-aid (I used Lemon-Lime) which has 40mg sodium in the
powder

1/2 C sugar (96gr total sugar)

1/2 tsp Morton Light Salt (580mg sodium, 680mg potassium)

1/4 tsp salt (590mg sodium)

7C (56 fl oz) water

For an 8oz "serving" we have:

Kool-aid "Endurance Formula"
Gatorade Endurance Formula (taken from the label)


14gr sugar
14gr sugar
175mg sodium
200mg sodium
95mg potassium
90mg poassium

The packet of Kool-aid cost $0.20 ;-)

 

[Mark]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:21:25 -0400, Peter Cole
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What I've read is that in warm weather and long rides, electrolytes
>>>help prevent cramping.
>>
>>I think that theory has been largely discredited.
>
>
> No.

Either way, there are other problems caused by electrolyte depletion
besides cramping. When you're drinking like crazy and peeing clear
(i.e. not dehydrated) and get queasy stomach on a looong hot(!) ride,
you may be hyponatremic. Electrolyte capsules helped for me.

Mark

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:20:31 -0400, Peter Cole
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:21:25 -0400, Peter Cole
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>
>>>> What I've read is that in warm weather and long rides, electrolytes
>>>> help prevent cramping.
>>> I think that theory has been largely discredited.
>>
>> No.
>
>EMAC="Exercise-associated muscle cramps"
>
> From (2005):
><http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1150229>
>
>"Conclusions: Consumption of a carbohydrate-electrolyte beverage before
>and during exercise in a hot environment may delay the onset of EAMCs,
>thereby allowing participants to exercise longer. However, it appears
>that dehydration and electrolyte loss are not the sole causes of EAMCs,
>because 69% of the subjects experienced EAMCs when they were hydrated
>and supplemented with electrolytes."
>
>and
>
>"A more recent theory suggests that EAMCs are related to sustained
>neural activity that results from fatigue.5 This idea is supported by
>studies of distance runners, who are most likely to experience cramps
>toward the end of a race.2,6 McGee17 found that 1 to 2 hours of activity
>usually precipitate EAMCs."
>
>finally
>
>"No known studies have been performed in a controlled environment to
>consider which conditions are most likely to reduce the occurrence of
>EAMCs. Therefore, our purpose was to determine the effect of hydration
>and electrolyte supplementation on the incidence of EAMCs and duration
>of exercise before the onset of EAMCs."
>
> From (2004):
><http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/38/4/488>
>
>"Conclusions: There are no clinically significant alterations in serum
>electrolyte concentrations and there is no alteration in hydration
>status in runners with EAMC participating in an ultra-distance race."
>
> From (2005):
><http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/abstract.00005768-200507000-00001.htm;jsessionid=GWjMhjTSVGhx9CX7tDkX6gF3Yg6KV8FVrJc91FczLQp91nzQLwpJ!588122478!-949856145!8091!-1>
>
>"Conclusion: Acute EAMC in ironman triathletes is not associated with a
>greater percent body mass loss or clinically significant differences in
>serum electrolyte concentrations. The increased EMG activity of cramping
>muscles may reflect increased neuromuscular activity."

I don't understand your point with regards to the first study. I said
that electrolytes in drinks help prevent cramping. I didn't say
electrolyte depletion is the only cause, or that electrolytes will
prevent all cramps. The first study says that the electrolytes may
help but people can still cramp.

The latter two studies do seem to discredit the idea, but I'd be much
more interested in seeing something that didn't involve the impact of
running -- perhaps cyclists or skiers or skaters.

JT

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[[email protected]]

Zilla wrote:
> Sorry if this has been asked..
>
> But do Cytomax and Accelerade, among others
> work as advertised, or is Gatorade just as good
> for replenishing body fluids and salts?
>
> --
> - Zilla
> Cary, NC USA
> (Remove XSPAM)

While you are riding, you need essentially three things to keep going.
You need water to stay cool. You need some electrolites for muscles to
contract (sodium and potasium). You need carbohydrates for your muscles
to keep working. Other things such as fat, protein, aminos are not
necessary to keep you going. They may be useful before and after, but
not during.

People have different combinations of these things that works for them.
I usually take gatorade to replenish my water and electrolites and
gives me a little bit of carbohydrates. I also eat granola bars that
have about 20 to 30 grams of carb per bar.

I find that with about a granola bar every 45 minutes to an hour and
approximately a bottle of gatorade per hour I can keep going for quite
a while on hot days. I doubt that cytomax, exceed, powerbars, and other
energy drinks and foods have anything else that you may need to fuel
your riding. they may have more carbs and more electrolites. Other
stuff that they have does not make much of a difference.

During races and triathlons, I find gels convenient to use. I still
take gatorade for the salt content. I was looking at the carbs in
those gummy peach rings and it is really high. I bet that they would
work great on races and they are much cheaper than gels. I might try
them soon.

Andres

 

[Justen]

Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think it's all just (very) expensive Kool-aid.

I don't buy all the marketting claims, but Cytomax only costs 0.75USD/quart,
which isn't all that expensive IMO. I suppose I could buy Kool-Aid, add
my own sugar and sodium and potassium cheaper... but it isn't really worth
the effort for minimal savings. I got through a liter per hour and still
end up fairly dehydrated at the end of rides.

Gatorade is a bit cheaper, Accelerade a bit more expensive.

Heck, if people can spend $3 on a cup of java...

Justen

 

[Peter Cole]

Justen wrote:
> Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I think it's all just (very) expensive Kool-aid.
>
> I don't buy all the marketting claims, but Cytomax only costs 0.75USD/quart,
> which isn't all that expensive IMO. I suppose I could buy Kool-Aid, add
> my own sugar and sodium and potassium cheaper... but it isn't really worth
> the effort for minimal savings. I got through a liter per hour and still
> end up fairly dehydrated at the end of rides.
>
> Gatorade is a bit cheaper, Accelerade a bit more expensive.
>
> Heck, if people can spend $3 on a cup of java...
>
> Justen
>

Actually, it's (list) well over a buck a quart, and that's if you buy
the huge tub (4.5lb) and mix it yourself.

The stuff (like most "energy" drinks) tastes like ****, the
"electrolytes" aren't really needed for most riding, and if they are,
they're too little. You don't need supplemental carbs unless you're
riding very hard for over a couple of hours, and then there are lots of
things you can eat. Carrying sugar water just makes a mess and drinking
it can tweak your stomach. The real thing that's hard to swallow is all
the pseudo-science -- that really makes me gag.

 

[Peter Cole]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> I don't understand your point with regards to the first study. I said
> that electrolytes in drinks help prevent cramping.

> I didn't say
> electrolyte depletion is the only cause, or that electrolytes will
> prevent all cramps. The first study says that the electrolytes may
> help but people can still cramp.

My point was that the only study I could find that gave any support to
the idea didn't isolate electrolytes (from hydration and carbo
ingestion) and then concluded only that those *may* *delay*, not prevent.

That article also stated that the authors knew of no other controlled
study for the conditions that cause EMACs. So, it appears that there
isn't any science to support the electrolyte/dehydration theory.


> The latter two studies do seem to discredit the idea, but I'd be much
> more interested in seeing something that didn't involve the impact of
> running -- perhaps cyclists or skiers or skaters.

Me too, but that seems to be all there is. Offhand I don't see why
running studies wouldn't also be representative for cycling, but my
conclusion is that the available science seems to find EMACs more of a
fatigue phenomenon than anything else.

 

[Tom The Great]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:33:26 -0400, Alex Rodriguez <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>
>>Why cut it?
>
>I cut it to 50% because I find it tastes better. Straight gatorade tastes
>too sweet to me.
>------------
>Alex


Good point!

Besides the taste, any sugary drink when I'm playing hard seems to
'repeat' on me.

later,

tom @ www.NoCostAds.com

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
> > I don't understand your point with regards to the first study. I said
> > that electrolytes in drinks help prevent cramping.
>
> > I didn't say
> > electrolyte depletion is the only cause, or that electrolytes will
> > prevent all cramps. The first study says that the electrolytes may
> > help but people can still cramp.
>
> My point was that the only study I could find that gave any support to
> the idea didn't isolate electrolytes (from hydration and carbo
> ingestion) and then concluded only that those *may* *delay*, not prevent.
>
> That article also stated that the authors knew of no other controlled
> study for the conditions that cause EMACs. So, it appears that there
> isn't any science to support the electrolyte/dehydration theory.

I never get EMACs. It can be 100% prevented by using vi.

--
Michael Press

 

[Peter Cole]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>> I don't understand your point with regards to the first study. I said
>>> that electrolytes in drinks help prevent cramping.
>>> I didn't say
>>> electrolyte depletion is the only cause, or that electrolytes will
>>> prevent all cramps. The first study says that the electrolytes may
>>> help but people can still cramp.
>> My point was that the only study I could find that gave any support to
>> the idea didn't isolate electrolytes (from hydration and carbo
>> ingestion) and then concluded only that those *may* *delay*, not prevent.
>>
>> That article also stated that the authors knew of no other controlled
>> study for the conditions that cause EMACs. So, it appears that there
>> isn't any science to support the electrolyte/dehydration theory.
>
> I never get EMACs. It can be 100% prevented by using vi.
>

Retro-geek.

 

[RonSonic]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:13:18 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 00:19:23 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Gatorade is a tooth-rotting, gut-corroding fraud with way too much sugar and
>>abjectly deficient electrolytes. Scarcely better than soda pop.
>Except soda tastes way too sweet for most people, and is carbonated.
>
>>It is better than nothing if you alternate between it and water as you go. Much
>>improved if you cut it to half or third strength
>
>Why cut it?

Way too sweet. Simple sugars require a LOT of water to absorb and the
concentration in Gatorade is so high that it will require you to drink more
liquid than you otherwise would. Or, sometimes could. This time of year in
Tampa you're already up against your ability to absorb water under exercise.

It isn't so bad for recovery afterward and I like it for washing down a peanut
butter sandwich.

Ron

 

[RonSonic]

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:25:00 -0400, Matt O'Toole <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:14:11 -0400, Peter Cole wrote:
>
>> I think they're all ****. I'd rather drink water and eat real food.
>
>I'm with you Peter, although I do actually like Clif bars.


Every time I open a Clif bar I am reminded that the plains Indians burned dried
buffalo dung for their heating and cooking fires. OTOH, I do open another Clif
bar. They're awful, but I like 'em.

Ron

 

[Matt O'Toole]

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:23:23 -0400, Peter Cole wrote:

> Matt O'Toole wrote:

>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:14:11 -0400, Peter Cole wrote:
>>
>>> I think they're all ****. I'd rather drink water and eat real food.
>>
>> I'm with you Peter, although I do actually like Clif bars.

> Yeah, but at a buck and a half a pop there are so many more interesting
> things to eat.

Last night I saw an Alton Brown show featuring energy bars. He explained
the nutritional downsides of commercial ones, and presented his own
alternatives which looked pretty good.

Matt O.

 

[[email protected]]

gatorade with a water is better!
try Qt. spring water, half a lemon squeeze 3 times toss in ifn there's
room
swell with crushed ice (from SW)
pinch of salt

 

[Sorni]

[email protected] wrote:
> gatorade with a water is better!
> try Qt. spring water, half a lemon squeeze 3 times toss in ifn there's
> room
> swell with crushed ice (from SW)
> pinch of salt

we hydratin' or drinkin'?

 

[[email protected]]

Sorni wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > gatorade with a water is better!
> > try Qt. spring water, half a lemon squeeze 3 times toss in ifn there's
> > room
> > swell with crushed ice (from SW)
> > pinch of salt
>
> we hydratin' or drinkin'?

lickin toads, sounds like

 

[Kristian M Zoerhoff]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:23:23 -0400, Peter Cole wrote:
>
> > Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:14:11 -0400, Peter Cole wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think they're all ****. I'd rather drink water and eat real food.
> >>
> >> I'm with you Peter, although I do actually like Clif bars.
>
> > Yeah, but at a buck and a half a pop there are so many more interesting
> > things to eat.
>
> Last night I saw an Alton Brown show featuring energy bars. He explained
> the nutritional downsides of commercial ones, and presented his own
> alternatives which looked pretty good.

It re-ran this morning; my wife Tivo'ed it for me. Now I /have/ to watch
it.

Oh, and for hydration: I just use Forrester's method, sugar and salt
mixed into my water bottle (with Kool-Aid or Emer-Gen-C for flavoring).

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email protected]
(_)/ (_)

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:13:59 GMT, RonSonic <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Way too sweet. Simple sugars require a LOT of water to absorb and the
>concentration in Gatorade is so high that it will require you to drink more
>liquid than you otherwise would. Or, sometimes could.

Sometimes is the key word -- perhaps in really hot weather. I drink
6%-8% sugar solutions all the time with no problems. Lots of people
do.

This time of year in
>Tampa you're already up against your ability to absorb water under exercise.

OK -- somewhere like that I could see using thinnner drinks.

JT

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