Squats versus presses



Carrera

New Member
Feb 2, 2004
4,856
0
0
54
I agree. These days I prefer hills that are medium steep but long. I also find that it kills me to keep out of the seat as much as I can till everything burns. Then I try to keep a steady count as I climb. Sometimes I put my hands inwards from the shifters in a close grip position and then just drive the bike uphill.


donhix1 said:
Going another direction, Chris Carmichael suggested that if you are short on time it is better to do strength training work on the bike. One of the exercises is finding a hill pick a gear that is about 40-50 rpm and then go all out while you are seated.
Another is on the flats. Roll along at 15 MPH in a big gear (53-13 or whatever is tough) then go all out seated for 15-30 seconds, I think they call them stomps.
 

Carrera

New Member
Feb 2, 2004
4,856
0
0
54
The glucosamine should help but you need to check with a doctor in case you have diabetes. An alternative might be shark's cartilage, although the latter is very expensive. Cod liver oil should be safe for everyone but make sure it contains DPA. As for the back, my own back pain was chronic for a year but I started massaging glucosamine gel directly into my spine and knees. That and hyperextensions did the trick. I also swallow raw garlic to build up my immune system against colds. I simply peel a bulb, slice it up into small tablets and then swallow with some orange juice so it gets into the gut and digests.
Yesterday I also went to the gym and did some light squats on a smith machine as a change from barbell squats. All went well. I feel no adverse effect on my knees from the smith and find it takes off a little pressure from the spine. I followed with a few leg-curls and some extensions. I never cycle the day after squats so my leg muscles get time to recuperate.
I've altered my cycling so the emphasis isn't on long term endurance over 3 hour periods. Instead I ride for shorter periods but with far more intensity. Usually I pick a very long uphill stretch and try to get into higher gears on the flat sections as soon as I hit them after a climb, watching my bike computer all the way. I very much enjoy the cycling sessions and put far more effort into efficiency and intensity when I ride and I'm finding my knees are in much better shape than last summer.
My main problem at present is depression over my work situation. I'm doing 12 hour nightshifts 5 - 6 days a week but am struggling to fit in my training schedule.


Doctor Morbius said:
Yes, I would imagine that hernia would shed new light on things. I've read through the "dreaded hernia" thread and it seems it will be a simple operation with a fast recovery. A few days to a few weeks away from exercise is nothing to get something like that patched up. Well worth the down time in my book.

I agree that at our age we're not going to be setting any new records or persoal bests unless we are willing to 'roid up like Larry Pacifico or something. Not willing to myself, although a low dose regimen to assist in recovery is tempting. :rolleyes:

I've just started lifting weights again this week for the second time since summer. Caught both cold and flu bugs shortly after the last time I started, which seems to be a reoccuring theme with me. I tend to attack the weights as I did when I was younger - albeit with lighter poundages - and my immune system always rebels. :mad: Every time I start a weight program I end up with a cold. The cycling doesn't seem to have that affect fortunately.

Am just now ready to do some easy easy lifting routines which will mostly emphasize core, rotary cuff and arms. :D I would still like to have some 20" guns! I'm not going to include any chest or frontal delt work since they are what seem to aggrivate my left shoulder. I can train lats, rear delts, rotary cuff and traps without a hitch ... except for my own intrinsic weaknesses that is.

I'll be sure to give that glucosamine and cod liver oil a try and see if that helps.
 

Doctor Morbius

New Member
Mar 15, 2004
1,792
1
0
Carrera said:
The glucosamine should help but you need to check with a doctor in case you have diabetes. An alternative might be shark's cartilage, although the latter is very expensive. Cod liver oil should be safe for everyone but make sure it contains DPA. As for the back, my own back pain was chronic for a year but I started massaging glucosamine gel directly into my spine and knees. That and hyperextensions did the trick. I also swallow raw garlic to build up my immune system against colds. I simply peel a bulb, slice it up into small tablets and then swallow with some orange juice so it gets into the gut and digests.
Yesterday I also went to the gym and did some light squats on a smith machine as a change from barbell squats. All went well. I feel no adverse effect on my knees from the smith and find it takes off a little pressure from the spine. I followed with a few leg-curls and some extensions. I never cycle the day after squats so my leg muscles get time to recuperate.
I've altered my cycling so the emphasis isn't on long term endurance over 3 hour periods. Instead I ride for shorter periods but with far more intensity. Usually I pick a very long uphill stretch and try to get into higher gears on the flat sections as soon as I hit them after a climb, watching my bike computer all the way. I very much enjoy the cycling sessions and put far more effort into efficiency and intensity when I ride and I'm finding my knees are in much better shape than last summer.
My main problem at present is depression over my work situation. I'm doing 12 hour nightshifts 5 - 6 days a week but am struggling to fit in my training schedule.
Just picked up some glucosamine and fish oil concentrate and am going to see how that works. There's no way in hell though that I'm going to eat raw garlic. No thank you!

I've also cut way back on the duration of my rides and am content with that for now. As for being depressed about the 12 hour night shifts, you could consider the other extreme possibility that your job could be sent to Asia as so many have and so many more will be. :mad: I was in the tech sector before the crash and everything went to hell overnight. In my case my job didn't go to Asia but rather was victim of a corporate merger and subequent downsizing. However, I'm now having to compete against a huge surplus of skilled workers in my field, which has cut my prospects down to nill. It's very discouraging to say the least.
 

Carrera

New Member
Feb 2, 2004
4,856
0
0
54
Sure, everybody tells me how lucky I am to be in work and I confess that, at this time, I have more money to spend on bikes than most people I know. That's because my employers exploit me so much and partly because other people simply refuse to work nights.

However, ironically, much of my problems at work arise due to the fact I'm a cyclist and, as a cyclist, I'm reliable. I'm never late for a shift due to my bike since I never get caught in traffic jams and ride through hail, rain or shine. Therefore, when other people arrive an hour late, I tend to have to cover for them. I've been up to 90 hours over 7 days.

Once I made the statement that in our company, no matter how much you do or how much of yourself you give, you never reach the Holy Grail. That is, they promise you a day off and just when you get to that specific day, the whole thing is cancelled. Or the long-awaited holiday never materialises.

When someone told my boss what I said she dragged me over the coals and was furious (you should see her in a temper).

As for the Asia thing, I guess it will iron out. China is starting to get more expensive and more prosperous so Asian people will be demanding better working standards and higher wages. Eventually we'll all be playing on a more level field (hopefully).

Yes, the glucosamine should help you but be sure you don't have diabetes. I've been taking it for 8 months and my chronic back pain has shifted. My knees feel better as well. Some scientists believe glucosamine can actually build fresh cartilage in a joint and my dog may be proof of that. His lame leg is now totally cured.

As for the garlic I don't chew it, I swallow it with juice like a pill, hopefully to reduce my risk of getting flu or colds in Winter.


Doctor Morbius said:
Just picked up some glucosamine and fish oil concentrate and am going to see how that works. There's no way in hell though that I'm going to eat raw garlic. No thank you!

I've also cut way back on the duration of my rides and am content with that for now. As for being depressed about the 12 hour night shifts, you could consider the other extreme possibility that your job could be sent to Asia as so many have and so many more will be. :mad: I was in the tech sector before the crash and everything went to hell overnight. In my case my job didn't go to Asia but rather was victim of a corporate merger and subequent downsizing. However, I'm now having to compete against a huge surplus of skilled workers in my field, which has cut my prospects down to nill. It's very discouraging to say the least.
 

triguy98

New Member
Sep 19, 2004
319
0
0
Not having a rack is not a good excuse to not squat. Take some dumbells, hold em up by you shoulders and squat away.

Lunges are also seconded here. A GREAT exercise, with many of the same benefits of a squat. The key is the inclusion of all the core muscles, and promoting balance, as has been said as well.

So dust of those dumbells and get squating!


HughM said:
Lamentably, the only gym I have ready access to does not have a squat rack. I am thus restricted to the leg press machine for that particular aspect of my strength workout. My questions are these: how does this method compare to squats, and; is there a freeweight-based excercise that, added to presses, yields the benefits of traditional squats?
 

ed073

New Member
May 19, 2004
1,528
0
0
49
triguy98 said:
Not having a rack is not a good excuse to not squat. Take some dumbells, hold em up by you shoulders and squat away.



So dust of those dumbells and get squating!


Difficult to do once poundages go up.
 

ed073

New Member
May 19, 2004
1,528
0
0
49
triguy98 said:
Who said lifting weights is easy? ;)


lol....:D

[mental image of someone trying to balance 100lb DBs at shoulder height and squat...]
 

Duckwah

New Member
Oct 30, 2002
755
0
0
I'd love to see someone doing squats holding 150lb dumbells on their shoulders!!
 

triguy98

New Member
Sep 19, 2004
319
0
0
Duckwah said:
I'd love to see someone doing squats holding 150lb dumbells on their shoulders!!
I thought everyone could do it... ;)
I don't use too heavy of a weight when squating. Typically my body weight at most. If I want more work, I do more reps. I think the lighter weight/ more reps is a lot more practical for cycling, coupled with all the work my legs are doing running and biking, i prefer not to squat too much.

Doing lighter squats with dumbells, I think, would be more beneficial than leg presses or no squating activity at all. I for one I have a squat rack, so it's not an issue, but for those who have to go without...
 

leifclarke

New Member
Nov 11, 2003
34
0
0
45
Just do the dumbbell squats holding a db in each hand at your sides (aka dumbbell deadlift). Very exhausting for your legs and your whole body.
 

Carrera

New Member
Feb 2, 2004
4,856
0
0
54
High rep squats haven't directly helped my cycling. I don't think any type of squat will. The only reason I do them is to control my bodyweight and for personal reasons. Plus, it's true the pros do squats (or leg-presses) every season to recuperate any lost muscle when the competitive season ends.
I failed on a climb yesterday but my legs are quite strong. I've been squatting 220 for sets of 20 reps which you would think would improve climbing. During my peak in the Summer I was squatting far less yet my climbing was superb. No link between my squat ability and climbing is evident, although sprinting may be a different kettle of fish.
The amount of strength and muscle you need to power a bike isn't that much. There's only need for concern if you lose a lot of muscle mass and water after hard competitions.



triguy98 said:
I thought everyone could do it... ;)
I don't use too heavy of a weight when squating. Typically my body weight at most. If I want more work, I do more reps. I think the lighter weight/ more reps is a lot more practical for cycling, coupled with all the work my legs are doing running and biking, i prefer not to squat too much.

Doing lighter squats with dumbells, I think, would be more beneficial than leg presses or no squating activity at all. I for one I have a squat rack, so it's not an issue, but for those who have to go without...
 

Doctor Morbius

New Member
Mar 15, 2004
1,792
1
0
Carrera said:
High rep squats haven't directly helped my cycling. I don't think any type of squat will. The only reason I do them is to control my bodyweight and for personal reasons. Plus, it's true the pros do squats (or leg-presses) every season to recuperate any lost muscle when the competitive season ends.
I failed on a climb yesterday but my legs are quite strong. I've been squatting 220 for sets of 20 reps which you would think would improve climbing. During my peak in the Summer I was squatting far less yet my climbing was superb. No link between my squat ability and climbing is evident, although sprinting may be a different kettle of fish.
The amount of strength and muscle you need to power a bike isn't that much. There's only need for concern if you lose a lot of muscle mass and water after hard competitions.
Carrera, you'll get a kick out of this. :D I've been wanting to expand my home gym a bit but have not found any equipment that looks decent for a price that I'm willing to pay. The commercial grade equipment is very expensive and costs a lot to have it shipped. The Walmart grade stuff is so cheap that I don't want to waste my time with it. I hate the angle of most preacher curl benches anyway. I like a 30 degree angle and most of them are around 45 degrees. Just won't hit the biceps right.

So tomorrow a friend of mine and I are going to start putting together a squat rack, a custom fit precher curl bench and a calf raise platform in his garage woodshop. He has a bunch of free scrap lumber that he got from work. The only things I'll need to actually buy are some vinyl and polyfill for padding for the preacher curl bench.

This week ****'s Sporting Goods is having a sale on their Cap Barbell 300 pound olympic sets for $110.00. They aren't the greatest but for $110 I'm not going to complain. Should work nicely for doing squats in the back yard this spring, summer and fall. That way if I get stuck I can just drop the bar in the grass!
 

triguy98

New Member
Sep 19, 2004
319
0
0
Scrap lumber? For a weight bench? I don't doubt the carpentry skills of some, but I just wouldn't think wood would be a solid choice for a weight bench.

Learning to weld is pretty easy and the product you could turn out would be much stronger.




Doctor Morbius said:
Carrera, you'll get a kick out of this. :D I've been wanting to expand my home gym a bit but have not found any equipment that looks decent for a price that I'm willing to pay. The commercial grade equipment is very expensive and costs a lot to have it shipped. The Walmart grade stuff is so cheap that I don't want to waste my time with it. I hate the angle of most preacher curl benches anyway. I like a 30 degree angle and most of them are around 45 degrees. Just won't hit the biceps right.

So tomorrow a friend of mine and I are going to start putting together a squat rack, a custom fit precher curl bench and a calf raise platform in his garage woodshop. He has a bunch of free scrap lumber that he got from work. The only things I'll need to actually buy are some vinyl and polyfill for padding for the preacher curl bench.

This week ****'s Sporting Goods is having a sale on their Cap Barbell 300 pound olympic sets for $110.00. They aren't the greatest but for $110 I'm not going to complain. Should work nicely for doing squats in the back yard this spring, summer and fall. That way if I get stuck I can just drop the bar in the grass!
 

Doctor Morbius

New Member
Mar 15, 2004
1,792
1
0
triguy98 said:
Scrap lumber? For a weight bench? I don't doubt the carpentry skills of some, but I just wouldn't think wood would be a solid choice for a weight bench.

Learning to weld is pretty easy and the product you could turn out would be much stronger.
Are you serious? My house is built out of wood.
 

CatSpin

New Member
Feb 13, 2003
74
0
0
52
I have been spending a lot of time reading through Friel's book. This is just one of the coaches that advocates strength training in the off season. Friel proposes squats as the exercise of choice for cyclists. He devotes a section to peak strength during the Maximum Strength (MS) phase of winter training.

Friel looks for his athletes to squat 1.3 - 1.7 x BW, 3 sets of 6 reps at these levels after 4-6 weeks of weight training. Yes, so if you think you are strong, try banging out 3 sets of 6 with 270lbs on the bar if you are a 160lbs rider....not easy.

Though admittedly controversial (weight training) for the amateur cyclist, strength gains affect only the amount of force one can apply to the pedals. Without further suggestion, you make the decision on whether to lift or not.

In the US, I am sucessful CAT 3 and master racer. I am currently working my way up to 400lbs for my peak MS week. Jan 15th. I do leg training every year to maintain strength and give those 22 year-old hot shots their money's worth as they climb up the ranks. I can not imagine a season without strength training. Oh, and yes, squat if you can. If not, lunge.

Good luck,

CatSpin
 

kennf

New Member
Jan 29, 2004
609
0
0
1.7x body weight seems like an insane amount of weight for an endurance cyclist to squat. I'd be surprised if many pros could do that (other than the pure sprinters). Then again, maybe it just seems like a lot to me because I was born with no butt.
 

CatSpin

New Member
Feb 13, 2003
74
0
0
52
kennf said:
1.7x body weight seems like an insane amount of weight for an endurance cyclist to squat. I'd be surprised if many pros could do that (other than the pure sprinters). Then again, maybe it just seems like a lot to me because I was born with no butt.


======================

Just for quick reference, I grabbed Charmichael's book "The Lance Armstrong Performance Program" and checked some of Armstrong’s stats. On page 111, Lance states:

"By late winter, after I have been lifting for 3 months, here's what I can do"
Leg Press: 400lbs
Hamstring Curl: 80lbs
Leg Extension: 120lbs
Biceps Curl: 50lbs
Ab Crunches: 200lbs per set
Bench Press: 125 lbs"

In the paragraph preceding, he indicates he does, 5-7 sets. 8 to 10 reps.

Not bad strength to weight ratio for all the muscle groups listed above. From what I understand, his weight training program in this book is also understated.

"LiveStrong" is no joke for this athlete.


Time to hit the "stack",

CatSpin